Expansion: XPH vs. SRD [Archive] - Wizards Community

Expansion: XPH vs. SRD [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_Mess
12-17-07, 02:26 PM I've just noticed that the SRD and the XPH do not match in their description of the Expansion power. In particular, the duration of the power in the SRD is 1 round/level, while the duration in the XPH is 1 minute/level.

Further confusion is added here because the XPH includes an augment which says, "If you spend 2 additional power points, this power's duration is 1 minute per level rather than 1 round per level." Of course, the errata from the XPH corrects this to boosting the power from 1 round per to 1 hour per, but it makes it look like whoever put together the SRD saw the discrepency and corrected it incorrectly.

Has anyone asked them about this? Are there any other places where the SRD doesn't match (not counting intellectual property removals, a la the Slayer)?
Xiuhcoatl
12-17-07, 02:35 PM The SRD contains errata.
Orenmir
12-17-07, 03:22 PM Does anyone else share my notion that this was corrected incorrectly? 2 reasons why I think so:

1. Augmenting from 1 round/level to 10 minutes/level is a huge jump in time (100 fold). A typical augmentation of duration would be from 1 round/level to 1 minute/level, or 1 minute/level to 10 minutes/level (10 fold).

2. The spell-equivalent is Enlarge Person, which has a duration of 1 minute/level.
The_Mess
12-17-07, 04:15 PM Okay, there seems to be some misunderstanding here. (Maybe it's mine!)

Let's see, never made a chart here before...

Unaugmented Aug. +2 pp
XPH 1 min./level 1 min./level
XPH errata 1 min./level 10 min./level
SRD 1 rnd./level 1 min./level

So, no, the SRD does not contain the errata and neither correction results in a +2pp augment giving a 100 fold increase.
Orenmir
12-17-07, 05:07 PM So, no, the SRD does not contain the errata and neither correction results in a +2pp augment giving a 100 fold increase.

Your chart is incorrect. Try this one:

Unaugmented Aug. +2 pp
XPH 1 min./level 1 min./level
XPH errata 1 rnd./level 10 min./level
SRD 1 rnd./level 10 min./level
The_Shaman
12-17-07, 05:25 PM Well, 2 pps more is the equivalent of a spell being 1 level higher. It could be worse, I suppose - but frankly I prefered to just thank the authors of the XPH for having included such a useful power and not bother too much with the details.
Scion of Coldshard
12-17-07, 05:32 PM Your chart is incorrect.

I have the errata file open right now and I dont see where it says to change the duration of the power. It only talks about changing the 3rd augment.
Orenmir
12-17-07, 06:05 PM I have the errata file open right now and I dont see where it says to change the duration of the power. It only talks about changing the 3rd augment.

Then maybe the chart should look like this:

Unaugmented Aug. +2 pp
XPH 1 min./level 1 min./level
XPH errata 1 min./level 10 min./level
SRD 1 rnd./level 10 min./level

That doesn't make sense to me. Doesn't the SRD post all errata? So, is the SRD wrong? That would clarify everything for me.

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersDtoF.html#expansion

Bad, bad SRD!
CrimsonDeath
12-17-07, 06:14 PM I have the errata file open right now and I dont see where it says to change the duration of the power. It only talks about changing the 3rd augment.

It depends on whether one believes that the text of an augment can override the Duration line of the power's header.

Well, 2 pps more is the equivalent of a spell being 1 level higher. It could be worse, I suppose - but frankly I prefered to just thank the authors of the XPH for having included such a useful power and not bother too much with the details.

It matters a lot to a Psychic Warrior at level 1 or 2. It's the difference between being able to use a power and wasting an action.
Orenmir
12-17-07, 06:24 PM Before my brain melts,, let's try to get this straight. Please let me know if any of this is incorrect:

XPH
Duration: 1 minute per level

Augmentation text: If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 1 minute per level rather than 1 round per level.

Errata
Duration: 1 minute per level (no errata)

Augmentation text: If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 10 minutes per level rather than 1 round per level.

SRD
Duration: 1 round per level

Augmentation text: If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 10 minutes per level rather than 1 round per level.

Does anyone else notice the source for confusion?
Ovistavin
12-17-07, 06:25 PM I just pulled the SRD from Wizards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) and here is the Expansion entry.

Expansion
Psychometabolism
Level: Psychic warrior 1
Display: Olfactory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round./level (D)
Power Points: 1
This power causes instant growth, doubling your height, length, and width and multiplying your weight by 8. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one. You gain a +2 size bonus to Strength, a –2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum effective Dexterity score of 1), a –1 size penalty on attack rolls, and a –1 size penalty to Armor Class due to your increased size.
If your new size is Large or larger, you have a space of at least 10 feet and a natural reach of at least 10 feet. This power doesn’t change your speed. If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, you attain the maximum possible size and can make a Strength check (using your increased Strength score) to burst any enclosures in the process. If you fail, you are constrained without harm by the materials enclosing you—you cannot crush yourself to death by increasing your size.
All your equipment, worn or carried, is similarly expanded by this power. Melee and projectile weapons deal more damage.
Other psionic or magical properties are not affected by this power. Any affected item that leaves your possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them). Multiple effects that increase size do not stack, which means (among other things) that you can’t use a second manifestation of this power to further expand yourself.
Augment: You can augment this power in one or more of the following ways.
1. If you spend 6 additional power points, this power increases your size by two size categories instead of one. You gain a +4 size bonus to Strength, a –4 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum effective Dexterity score of 1), a –2 size penalty on attack rolls, and a –2 size penalty to Armor Class due to your increased size.
2. If you spend 6 additional power points, you can manifest this power as a swift action instead of a standard action.
3. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 1 minute per level rather than 1 round per level.

The errata is the following:
Page 105–106: Expansion Power
The third option for augmenting the power should read
as follows:
3. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s
duration is 10 minutes per level rather than 1 round per
level.

I am not near my book, but I swear that Expansion has a duration of 1 minute/level in it.
Tinari
12-17-07, 06:37 PM Why not look at the opposite power and compare it?

I think it'd be hard for them to make the exact same type in both the Expansion and Compression descriptions at once.

Then compare that to the errata. I don't have my XPH handy to check, myself.
Tedronai
12-17-07, 07:04 PM Why not look at the opposite power and compare it?

I think it'd be hard for them to make the exact same type in both the Expansion and Compression descriptions at once.

Then compare that to the errata. I don't have my XPH handy to check, myself.

Compression
Psychometabolism
Level: Psychic warrior 1
Display: Olfactory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Power Points: 1

EPH lists the same information, I checked.
CrimsonDeath
12-17-07, 07:08 PM Why not look at the opposite power and compare it?

I think it'd be hard for them to make the exact same type in both the Expansion and Compression descriptions at once.

Then compare that to the errata. I don't have my XPH handy to check, myself.

Compression has a duration of 1 round/level and augments to 1 minute per level. XPH and SRD agree, and there's no errata.
The_Mess
12-17-07, 08:26 PM The official SRD description of expansion disagrees with BOTH of the popular HTML SRDs out there!

Official SRD from Wizards website:
Duration: 1 round./level (D)
If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 1 minute per level rather than 1 round per level.

d20srd.org:
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 10 minutes per level rather than 1 round per level.

Systemreferencedocuments.org:
Duration: 1 round./level (D)
If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 10 minutes per level rather than 1 round per level.

So, what's officially correct, the book or the SRD? (Though if the DM wants to go with the SRD, I'll ask to switch powers on my first level psychic warrior. It's not worth it for 1 round.)

So... expanded chart!

Unaugmented Aug. +2 pp
XPH 1 min./level 1 min./level
XPH errata 1 min./level 10 min./level
Off. SRD 1 rnd./level 1 min./level
HTML SRDs 1 rnd./level 10 min./level
AtsuiShoto
12-18-07, 09:39 PM I think one of the most reasonable arrangements is 1 rd/lvl augmented to 1 min/lvl. After all, Expansion is an incredibly useful combat buff, so allowing it to last for an entire encounter at 1st level is a bit overkill, in my estimation. Regardless of what everything says, I choose to believe that 1 rd/lvl augments to 1 min/lvl.
Scion of Coldshard
12-18-07, 09:42 PM I think one of the most reasonable arrangements is 1 rd/lvl augmented to 1 min/lvl. After all, Expansion is an incredibly useful combat buff, so allowing it to last for an entire encounter at 1st level is a bit overkill, in my estimation. Regardless of what everything says, I choose to believe that 1 rd/lvl augments to 1 min/lvl.

Do you also change the spell to be 1 round/level? If you leave the spell 1 minute/level and make the power 1 round/level that isnt really all that fair I think ;)
CrimsonDeath
12-18-07, 09:57 PM I think one of the most reasonable arrangements is 1 rd/lvl augmented to 1 min/lvl. After all, Expansion is an incredibly useful combat buff, so allowing it to last for an entire encounter at 1st level is a bit overkill, in my estimation. Regardless of what everything says, I choose to believe that 1 rd/lvl augments to 1 min/lvl.

You think it's better for a level 1 manifester to spend a standard action on a self-buff that only lasts one round?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Mess 12-17-07, 02:26 PM	I've just noticed that the SRD and the XPH do not match in their description of the Expansion power. In particular, the duration of the power in the SRD is 1 round/level, while the duration in the XPH is 1 minute/level. Further confusion is added here because the XPH includes an augment which says, "If you spend 2 additional power points, this power's duration is 1 minute per level rather than 1 round per level." Of course, the errata from the XPH corrects this to boosting the power from 1 round per to 1 hour per, but it makes it look like whoever put together the SRD saw the discrepency and corrected it incorrectly. Has anyone asked them about this? Are there any other places where the SRD doesn't match (not counting intellectual property removals, a la the Slayer)?
Xiuhcoatl 12-17-07, 02:35 PM	The SRD contains errata.
Orenmir 12-17-07, 03:22 PM	Does anyone else share my notion that this was corrected incorrectly? 2 reasons why I think so: 1. Augmenting from 1 round/level to 10 minutes/level is a huge jump in time (100 fold). A typical augmentation of duration would be from 1 round/level to 1 minute/level, or 1 minute/level to 10 minutes/level (10 fold). 2. The spell-equivalent is Enlarge Person, which has a duration of 1 minute/level.
The_Mess 12-17-07, 04:15 PM	Okay, there seems to be some misunderstanding here. (Maybe it's mine!) Let's see, never made a chart here before... Unaugmented Aug. +2 pp XPH 1 min./level 1 min./level XPH errata 1 min./level 10 min./level SRD 1 rnd./level 1 min./level So, no, the SRD does not contain the errata and neither correction results in a +2pp augment giving a 100 fold increase.
Orenmir 12-17-07, 05:07 PM	So, no, the SRD does not contain the errata and neither correction results in a +2pp augment giving a 100 fold increase. Your chart is incorrect. Try this one: Unaugmented Aug. +2 pp XPH 1 min./level 1 min./level XPH errata 1 rnd./level 10 min./level SRD 1 rnd./level 10 min./level
The_Shaman 12-17-07, 05:25 PM	Well, 2 pps more is the equivalent of a spell being 1 level higher. It could be worse, I suppose - but frankly I prefered to just thank the authors of the XPH for having included such a useful power and not bother too much with the details.
Scion of Coldshard 12-17-07, 05:32 PM	Your chart is incorrect. I have the errata file open right now and I dont see where it says to change the duration of the power. It only talks about changing the 3rd augment.
Orenmir 12-17-07, 06:05 PM	I have the errata file open right now and I dont see where it says to change the duration of the power. It only talks about changing the 3rd augment. Then maybe the chart should look like this: Unaugmented Aug. +2 pp XPH 1 min./level 1 min./level XPH errata 1 min./level 10 min./level SRD 1 rnd./level 10 min./level That doesn't make sense to me. Doesn't the SRD post all errata? So, is the SRD wrong? That would clarify everything for me. http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersDtoF.html#expansion Bad, bad SRD!
CrimsonDeath 12-17-07, 06:14 PM	I have the errata file open right now and I dont see where it says to change the duration of the power. It only talks about changing the 3rd augment. It depends on whether one believes that the text of an augment can override the Duration line of the power's header. Well, 2 pps more is the equivalent of a spell being 1 level higher. It could be worse, I suppose - but frankly I prefered to just thank the authors of the XPH for having included such a useful power and not bother too much with the details. It matters a lot to a Psychic Warrior at level 1 or 2. It's the difference between being able to use a power and wasting an action.
Orenmir 12-17-07, 06:24 PM	Before my brain melts,, let's try to get this straight. Please let me know if any of this is incorrect: XPH Duration: 1 minute per level Augmentation text: If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 1 minute per level rather than 1 round per level. Errata Duration: 1 minute per level (no errata) Augmentation text: If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 10 minutes per level rather than 1 round per level. SRD Duration: 1 round per level Augmentation text: If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 10 minutes per level rather than 1 round per level. Does anyone else notice the source for confusion?
Ovistavin 12-17-07, 06:25 PM	I just pulled the SRD from Wizards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) and here is the Expansion entry. Expansion Psychometabolism Level: Psychic warrior 1 Display: Olfactory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 round./level (D) Power Points: 1 This power causes instant growth, doubling your height, length, and width and multiplying your weight by 8. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one. You gain a +2 size bonus to Strength, a –2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum effective Dexterity score of 1), a –1 size penalty on attack rolls, and a –1 size penalty to Armor Class due to your increased size. If your new size is Large or larger, you have a space of at least 10 feet and a natural reach of at least 10 feet. This power doesn’t change your speed. If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, you attain the maximum possible size and can make a Strength check (using your increased Strength score) to burst any enclosures in the process. If you fail, you are constrained without harm by the materials enclosing you—you cannot crush yourself to death by increasing your size. All your equipment, worn or carried, is similarly expanded by this power. Melee and projectile weapons deal more damage. Other psionic or magical properties are not affected by this power. Any affected item that leaves your possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them). Multiple effects that increase size do not stack, which means (among other things) that you can’t use a second manifestation of this power to further expand yourself. Augment: You can augment this power in one or more of the following ways. 1. If you spend 6 additional power points, this power increases your size by two size categories instead of one. You gain a +4 size bonus to Strength, a –4 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum effective Dexterity score of 1), a –2 size penalty on attack rolls, and a –2 size penalty to Armor Class due to your increased size. 2. If you spend 6 additional power points, you can manifest this power as a swift action instead of a standard action. 3. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 1 minute per level rather than 1 round per level. The errata is the following: Page 105–106: Expansion Power The third option for augmenting the power should read as follows: 3. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 10 minutes per level rather than 1 round per level. I am not near my book, but I swear that Expansion has a duration of 1 minute/level in it.
Tinari 12-17-07, 06:37 PM	Why not look at the opposite power and compare it? I think it'd be hard for them to make the exact same type in both the Expansion and Compression descriptions at once. Then compare that to the errata. I don't have my XPH handy to check, myself.
Tedronai 12-17-07, 07:04 PM	Why not look at the opposite power and compare it? I think it'd be hard for them to make the exact same type in both the Expansion and Compression descriptions at once. Then compare that to the errata. I don't have my XPH handy to check, myself. Compression Psychometabolism Level: Psychic warrior 1 Display: Olfactory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 round/level (D) Power Points: 1 EPH lists the same information, I checked.
CrimsonDeath 12-17-07, 07:08 PM	Why not look at the opposite power and compare it? I think it'd be hard for them to make the exact same type in both the Expansion and Compression descriptions at once. Then compare that to the errata. I don't have my XPH handy to check, myself. Compression has a duration of 1 round/level and augments to 1 minute per level. XPH and SRD agree, and there's no errata.
The_Mess 12-17-07, 08:26 PM	The official SRD description of expansion disagrees with BOTH of the popular HTML SRDs out there! Official SRD from Wizards website: Duration: 1 round./level (D) If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 1 minute per level rather than 1 round per level. d20srd.org: Duration: 1 round/level (D) If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 10 minutes per level rather than 1 round per level. Systemreferencedocuments.org: Duration: 1 round./level (D) If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 10 minutes per level rather than 1 round per level. So, what's officially correct, the book or the SRD? (Though if the DM wants to go with the SRD, I'll ask to switch powers on my first level psychic warrior. It's not worth it for 1 round.) So... expanded chart! Unaugmented Aug. +2 pp XPH 1 min./level 1 min./level XPH errata 1 min./level 10 min./level Off. SRD 1 rnd./level 1 min./level HTML SRDs 1 rnd./level 10 min./level
AtsuiShoto 12-18-07, 09:39 PM	I think one of the most reasonable arrangements is 1 rd/lvl augmented to 1 min/lvl. After all, Expansion is an incredibly useful combat buff, so allowing it to last for an entire encounter at 1st level is a bit overkill, in my estimation. Regardless of what everything says, I choose to believe that 1 rd/lvl augments to 1 min/lvl.
Scion of Coldshard 12-18-07, 09:42 PM	I think one of the most reasonable arrangements is 1 rd/lvl augmented to 1 min/lvl. After all, Expansion is an incredibly useful combat buff, so allowing it to last for an entire encounter at 1st level is a bit overkill, in my estimation. Regardless of what everything says, I choose to believe that 1 rd/lvl augments to 1 min/lvl. Do you also change the spell to be 1 round/level? If you leave the spell 1 minute/level and make the power 1 round/level that isnt really all that fair I think ;)
CrimsonDeath 12-18-07, 09:57 PM	I think one of the most reasonable arrangements is 1 rd/lvl augmented to 1 min/lvl. After all, Expansion is an incredibly useful combat buff, so allowing it to last for an entire encounter at 1st level is a bit overkill, in my estimation. Regardless of what everything says, I choose to believe that 1 rd/lvl augments to 1 min/lvl. You think it's better for a level 1 manifester to spend a standard action on a self-buff that only lasts one round?