Extend-Power with Temporal Acceleration [Archive] - Wizards Community

Extend-Power with Temporal Acceleration [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
d0yen
12-10-07, 04:46 PM Is that legal?
archerpwr
12-10-07, 04:51 PM Yes.
Lycanthromancer
12-11-07, 04:33 PM It does have a duration. That the duration is subjective rather than objective is non-sequitur.
d0yen
12-12-07, 02:49 PM That the duration is subjective rather than objective is non-sequitur.:confused:
are you trying to say that its the duration of the power that is effected by this feat, and that mentioning Temporal Acceleration is a non-sequitur?

i failed my parse-boards-speak check.
CrimsonDeath
12-12-07, 02:54 PM :confused:
are you trying to say that its the duration of the power that is effected by this feat, and that mentioning Temporal Acceleration is a non-sequitur?

i failed my parse-boards-speak check.

I don't think it's actually a non-sequitur, in the purest sense of the term. What he's saying is that the power has a duration, and that the difference between an objective duration and a subjective duration is irrelevant for the purpose of adjudicating the Extend Power feat.

Personally, I disagree, because Time Stop has the same wording in its Duration line (after the errata, anyway), and it cannot be Extended. (Nor can it be persisted, which is the more important fact.) On the other hand, it can be Maximized or Empowered, while Temporal Acceleration cannot (since it lacks a variable numeric component), so it may need the be Extendable just to keep up with the power curve. But on the gripping hand, Temporal Acceleration is a level 6 power, while TIme Stop is a level 9 spell. So, by the time Wizards are stopping time, Psions have been accelerating it for six levels. So the Psions may not need anything to catch up after all.
hovnarr
12-12-07, 03:26 PM Nor can it be persisted, which is the more important fact

Why is it an important fact? You can't affect your world while in a TS/TA anyway. It appears to be useful only for buffing, and if you need to persist it just to get all the important buffs down, well... dispelling/AMF/NPF/disjunction etc. will hit your strategy hard.

so it may need the be Extendable just to keep up with the power curve. But on the gripping hand, Temporal Acceleration is a level 6 power, while TIme Stop is a level 9 spell. So, by the time Wizards are stopping time, Psions have been accelerating it for six levels. So the Psions may not need anything to catch up after all.

Good analysis. Here's how I look at it: Trading 11 pp for converting a swift action to a full round action is pretty OK for a 6th level power. Comparing with Time Stop, 17 pp buys you an extended, once-augmented acceleration granting you 4 ROUNDS of free time - slightly above the 3.5 round average of TS. However, you had to apply a feat and expend focus for it, so I don't see it as unbalancing.

Beyond that it's just diminishing returns. With stuff like twin, quicken, schism, fission, blah blah - 4 rounds is plenty. If you can't win with 4 rounds prep time, paying 4 more pp for 6 rounds probably won't help a lot.

The only potentially unbalancing thing with allowing Extend is that overchannel/wild surge allows you 2 rounds from the get-go. Getting TWO rounds for 1 swift action may be a bit much at level 11.
d0yen
12-12-07, 03:34 PM The only potentially unbalancing thing with allowing Extend is that overchannel/wild surge allows you 2 rounds from the get-go. Getting TWO rounds for 1 swift action may be a bit much at level 11.
well, even 2 rounds with delay power - ur still limited by how many power points you have, and how many more encounters that day.

in comparison to other RAW combonations - this doesn't seem unbalanced - it seems like a powerful combo, but far from un-balanced.

there is still the extreem lacking on the part of core 3.5 fighters - but to other spell casters dealing w/ 2+rounds of psionic effects isn't a death dealer at 11th lvl for wizard/sorc.

hell - i know several very aggresive sorc builds that have over 100 hit points around lvl 11. Minor Globe of Invrblity anyone?
CrimsonDeath
12-12-07, 03:50 PM Why is it an important fact? You can't affect your world while in a TS/TA anyway. It appears to be useful only for buffing, and if you need to persist it just to get all the important buffs down, well... dispelling/AMF/NPF/disjunction etc. will hit your strategy hard.
In the case of an AMF/NPF, a spellcaster is screwed anyway, so that's a non-argument. In the case of a Dispel/Disjunction, you just cast another Persistent Time Stop, sleep for eight hours, and put up all your buffs again. You've lost a day off your life expectancy (if you have a maximum age), but that just puts you a little closer to Venerable age, and once you get there, there are a variety of ways to achieve immortality. Meanwhile, your opponent has lost a spell slot (and an action), and you're back up to full capacity.

If you intend to use this strategy often, I'd suggest including "a very good book" among your equipment in order to maintain some degree of plausibility.
Omen_of_Peace
12-12-07, 04:22 PM in comparison to other RAW combonations - this doesn't seem unbalanced - it seems like a powerful combo, but far from un-balanced.

there is still the extreem lacking on the part of core 3.5 fighters - but to other spell casters dealing w/ 2+rounds of psionic effects isn't a death dealer at 11th lvl for wizard/sorc.

Except that "as balanced as arcane magic" is not what we want for psionics !
hovnarr
12-12-07, 06:14 PM If you intend to use this strategy often, I'd suggest including "a very good book" among your equipment in order to maintain some degree of plausibility.

:clap: Now I want to make an epic Elan who "persists" in wearing his opponents down in spell duels.
d0yen
12-12-07, 06:23 PM wait.

doesing it state that the only spells prestnt can effect are ones that have a duration in rounds/mins/hours per level?

and temp aceleration and time stop both lack this trait....
CrimsonDeath
12-12-07, 07:23 PM To be Persisted, a spell must have "a fixed or personal range", and it cannot be Instantaneous or Discharged. Temporal Acceleration and Time Stop both have all these traits, unless you consider a duration measured in "apparent time" to be a category of "instantaneous".
d0yen
12-13-07, 11:12 PM To be Persisted, a spell must have "a fixed or personal range", and it cannot be Instantaneous or Discharged. Temporal Acceleration and Time Stop both have all these traits, unless you consider a duration measured in "apparent time" to be a category of "instantaneous". I will go back to the source, and re-read the full feat details to see if i can find the refrence regarding effects w/ mins/rounds/hrs per lvl.
Tedronai
12-14-07, 12:09 AM Good analysis. Here's how I look at it: Trading 11 pp for converting a swift action to a full round action is pretty OK for a 6th level power. Comparing with Time Stop, 17 pp buys you an extended, once-augmented acceleration granting you 4 ROUNDS of free time - slightly above the 3.5 round average of TS. However, you had to apply a feat and expend focus for it, so I don't see it as unbalancing.

Beyond that it's just diminishing returns. With stuff like twin, quicken, schism, fission, blah blah - 4 rounds is plenty. If you can't win with 4 rounds prep time, paying 4 more pp for 6 rounds probably won't help a lot.

The only potentially unbalancing thing with allowing Extend is that overchannel/wild surge allows you 2 rounds from the get-go. Getting TWO rounds for 1 swift action may be a bit much at level 11.

Of course, the Time Stop won't make you Shaken afterwards, while TA will, which is of particular trouble (whether they admit to it or not) for some of the builds that would otherwise make use of nested TAs.
CrimsonDeath
12-14-07, 02:42 AM I will go back to the source, and re-read the full feat details to see if i can find the refrence regarding effects w/ mins/rounds/hrs per lvl.
The feat is in Complete Arcane, if you want to look.

Of course, the Time Stop won't make you Shaken afterwards, while TA will, which is of particular trouble (whether they admit to it or not) for some of the builds that would otherwise make use of nested TAs.
Personal Mind Blank? Depends on whether the Shaken condition is considered a fear effect (and therefor a mind-affecting effect) regardless of what causes it.
hovnarr
12-14-07, 03:45 AM nested TAs.

You mean a TA inside a TA? I don't think that's possible due to stacking rules. If already under the effect of TA, you can't accelerate any more.
Tedronai
12-14-07, 09:27 PM You mean a TA inside a TA? I don't think that's possible due to stacking rules. If already under the effect of TA, you can't accelerate any more.

Stacking rules only apply to a set list of effects. 'Apparent time' isn't one of them.

The effect gives you the ability to take X number of full-round actions in the space of a swift action. Each of those full-round actions includes a swift action, during which it would be possible to use the same ability to take another X full-round actions.
d0yen
12-14-07, 11:07 PM The feat is in Complete Arcane, if you want to look.I think the spirit of that feat was to keep high level effect such as TimeStop and TempAccelration from lasting 24hrs.

I'm proud that you have found that the Rules As Written *could* be interpreted to mean you *might* be able to manifested TempAcc with a 24hr duration.

There is also a very important RAW to be considered regarding the transparency(or lack there of) for meta-magic feats translated into meta-psionic feats.

There is also the core rules of all d20 game's : roll dice, add modifires, and Have Fun. If this feat combonation would make a non-epic character this powerful, (IMHO) i don't think thats considered having fun.
CrimsonDeath
12-15-07, 12:17 AM I'm proud that you have found that the Rules As Written *could* be interpreted to mean you *might* be able to manifested TempAcc with a 24hr duration.

Actually, I believe I was the first to mention (in this thread) that WotC has already ruled that Persistent Spell cannot modify Time Stop (presumably because replacing its duration with "24 hours" removes the "apparent time" qualifier that makes the spell useful in the first place), and the strategy I posted was to illustrate the utter stupidity that would result if it could. The only reason I told you that spell didn't need an original duration based on caster level is because it, in fact, does not. Please do not lecture me about D&D sportsmanship or game balance.

Persistent Spell can't apply to Temporal Acceleration anyway because Temporal Acceleration isn't a spell. The fact that we don't want Persistent Time Stops is a good reason to keep Extend Spell from applying to Time Stop, but since Persistent Power doesn't exist within WotC-published sources, there's no game-balance-related reason for WotC to prevent Extend Power from applying to Temporal Acceleration, so I didn't really press the issue.

But thank you for completely missing the point of the conversation and then crowning me the king of game-killing munchkins. In celebration, I think I'm going to sign up for a level 1 play-by-post game with a character who can hit a DC 25 Knowledge: The Planes check.
Lycanthromancer
12-16-07, 03:31 PM I can hit DC 35 by level 1. :P

(Yes, I realize, that's not the point.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
d0yen 12-10-07, 04:46 PM	Is that legal?
archerpwr 12-10-07, 04:51 PM	Yes.
Lycanthromancer 12-11-07, 04:33 PM	It does have a duration. That the duration is subjective rather than objective is non-sequitur.
d0yen 12-12-07, 02:49 PM	That the duration is subjective rather than objective is non-sequitur.:confused: are you trying to say that its the duration of the power that is effected by this feat, and that mentioning Temporal Acceleration is a non-sequitur? i failed my parse-boards-speak check.
CrimsonDeath 12-12-07, 02:54 PM	:confused: are you trying to say that its the duration of the power that is effected by this feat, and that mentioning Temporal Acceleration is a non-sequitur? i failed my parse-boards-speak check. I don't think it's actually a non-sequitur, in the purest sense of the term. What he's saying is that the power has a duration, and that the difference between an objective duration and a subjective duration is irrelevant for the purpose of adjudicating the Extend Power feat. Personally, I disagree, because Time Stop has the same wording in its Duration line (after the errata, anyway), and it cannot be Extended. (Nor can it be persisted, which is the more important fact.) On the other hand, it can be Maximized or Empowered, while Temporal Acceleration cannot (since it lacks a variable numeric component), so it may need the be Extendable just to keep up with the power curve. But on the gripping hand, Temporal Acceleration is a level 6 power, while TIme Stop is a level 9 spell. So, by the time Wizards are stopping time, Psions have been accelerating it for six levels. So the Psions may not need anything to catch up after all.
hovnarr 12-12-07, 03:26 PM	Nor can it be persisted, which is the more important fact Why is it an important fact? You can't affect your world while in a TS/TA anyway. It appears to be useful only for buffing, and if you need to persist it just to get all the important buffs down, well... dispelling/AMF/NPF/disjunction etc. will hit your strategy hard. so it may need the be Extendable just to keep up with the power curve. But on the gripping hand, Temporal Acceleration is a level 6 power, while TIme Stop is a level 9 spell. So, by the time Wizards are stopping time, Psions have been accelerating it for six levels. So the Psions may not need anything to catch up after all. Good analysis. Here's how I look at it: Trading 11 pp for converting a swift action to a full round action is pretty OK for a 6th level power. Comparing with Time Stop, 17 pp buys you an extended, once-augmented acceleration granting you 4 ROUNDS of free time - slightly above the 3.5 round average of TS. However, you had to apply a feat and expend focus for it, so I don't see it as unbalancing. Beyond that it's just diminishing returns. With stuff like twin, quicken, schism, fission, blah blah - 4 rounds is plenty. If you can't win with 4 rounds prep time, paying 4 more pp for 6 rounds probably won't help a lot. The only potentially unbalancing thing with allowing Extend is that overchannel/wild surge allows you 2 rounds from the get-go. Getting TWO rounds for 1 swift action may be a bit much at level 11.
d0yen 12-12-07, 03:34 PM	The only potentially unbalancing thing with allowing Extend is that overchannel/wild surge allows you 2 rounds from the get-go. Getting TWO rounds for 1 swift action may be a bit much at level 11. well, even 2 rounds with delay power - ur still limited by how many power points you have, and how many more encounters that day. in comparison to other RAW combonations - this doesn't seem unbalanced - it seems like a powerful combo, but far from un-balanced. there is still the extreem lacking on the part of core 3.5 fighters - but to other spell casters dealing w/ 2+rounds of psionic effects isn't a death dealer at 11th lvl for wizard/sorc. hell - i know several very aggresive sorc builds that have over 100 hit points around lvl 11. Minor Globe of Invrblity anyone?
CrimsonDeath 12-12-07, 03:50 PM	Why is it an important fact? You can't affect your world while in a TS/TA anyway. It appears to be useful only for buffing, and if you need to persist it just to get all the important buffs down, well... dispelling/AMF/NPF/disjunction etc. will hit your strategy hard. In the case of an AMF/NPF, a spellcaster is screwed anyway, so that's a non-argument. In the case of a Dispel/Disjunction, you just cast another Persistent Time Stop, sleep for eight hours, and put up all your buffs again. You've lost a day off your life expectancy (if you have a maximum age), but that just puts you a little closer to Venerable age, and once you get there, there are a variety of ways to achieve immortality. Meanwhile, your opponent has lost a spell slot (and an action), and you're back up to full capacity. If you intend to use this strategy often, I'd suggest including "a very good book" among your equipment in order to maintain some degree of plausibility.
Omen_of_Peace 12-12-07, 04:22 PM	in comparison to other RAW combonations - this doesn't seem unbalanced - it seems like a powerful combo, but far from un-balanced. there is still the extreem lacking on the part of core 3.5 fighters - but to other spell casters dealing w/ 2+rounds of psionic effects isn't a death dealer at 11th lvl for wizard/sorc. Except that "as balanced as arcane magic" is not what we want for psionics !
hovnarr 12-12-07, 06:14 PM	If you intend to use this strategy often, I'd suggest including "a very good book" among your equipment in order to maintain some degree of plausibility. :clap: Now I want to make an epic Elan who "persists" in wearing his opponents down in spell duels.
d0yen 12-12-07, 06:23 PM	wait. doesing it state that the only spells prestnt can effect are ones that have a duration in rounds/mins/hours per level? and temp aceleration and time stop both lack this trait....
CrimsonDeath 12-12-07, 07:23 PM	To be Persisted, a spell must have "a fixed or personal range", and it cannot be Instantaneous or Discharged. Temporal Acceleration and Time Stop both have all these traits, unless you consider a duration measured in "apparent time" to be a category of "instantaneous".
d0yen 12-13-07, 11:12 PM	To be Persisted, a spell must have "a fixed or personal range", and it cannot be Instantaneous or Discharged. Temporal Acceleration and Time Stop both have all these traits, unless you consider a duration measured in "apparent time" to be a category of "instantaneous". I will go back to the source, and re-read the full feat details to see if i can find the refrence regarding effects w/ mins/rounds/hrs per lvl.
Tedronai 12-14-07, 12:09 AM	Good analysis. Here's how I look at it: Trading 11 pp for converting a swift action to a full round action is pretty OK for a 6th level power. Comparing with Time Stop, 17 pp buys you an extended, once-augmented acceleration granting you 4 ROUNDS of free time - slightly above the 3.5 round average of TS. However, you had to apply a feat and expend focus for it, so I don't see it as unbalancing. Beyond that it's just diminishing returns. With stuff like twin, quicken, schism, fission, blah blah - 4 rounds is plenty. If you can't win with 4 rounds prep time, paying 4 more pp for 6 rounds probably won't help a lot. The only potentially unbalancing thing with allowing Extend is that overchannel/wild surge allows you 2 rounds from the get-go. Getting TWO rounds for 1 swift action may be a bit much at level 11. Of course, the Time Stop won't make you Shaken afterwards, while TA will, which is of particular trouble (whether they admit to it or not) for some of the builds that would otherwise make use of nested TAs.
CrimsonDeath 12-14-07, 02:42 AM	I will go back to the source, and re-read the full feat details to see if i can find the refrence regarding effects w/ mins/rounds/hrs per lvl. The feat is in Complete Arcane, if you want to look. Of course, the Time Stop won't make you Shaken afterwards, while TA will, which is of particular trouble (whether they admit to it or not) for some of the builds that would otherwise make use of nested TAs. Personal Mind Blank? Depends on whether the Shaken condition is considered a fear effect (and therefor a mind-affecting effect) regardless of what causes it.
hovnarr 12-14-07, 03:45 AM	nested TAs. You mean a TA inside a TA? I don't think that's possible due to stacking rules. If already under the effect of TA, you can't accelerate any more.
Tedronai 12-14-07, 09:27 PM	You mean a TA inside a TA? I don't think that's possible due to stacking rules. If already under the effect of TA, you can't accelerate any more. Stacking rules only apply to a set list of effects. 'Apparent time' isn't one of them. The effect gives you the ability to take X number of full-round actions in the space of a swift action. Each of those full-round actions includes a swift action, during which it would be possible to use the same ability to take another X full-round actions.
d0yen 12-14-07, 11:07 PM	The feat is in Complete Arcane, if you want to look.I think the spirit of that feat was to keep high level effect such as TimeStop and TempAccelration from lasting 24hrs. I'm proud that you have found that the Rules As Written could be interpreted to mean you might be able to manifested TempAcc with a 24hr duration. There is also a very important RAW to be considered regarding the transparency(or lack there of) for meta-magic feats translated into meta-psionic feats. There is also the core rules of all d20 game's : roll dice, add modifires, and Have Fun. If this feat combonation would make a non-epic character this powerful, (IMHO) i don't think thats considered having fun.
CrimsonDeath 12-15-07, 12:17 AM	I'm proud that you have found that the Rules As Written could be interpreted to mean you might be able to manifested TempAcc with a 24hr duration. Actually, I believe I was the first to mention (in this thread) that WotC has already ruled that Persistent Spell cannot modify Time Stop (presumably because replacing its duration with "24 hours" removes the "apparent time" qualifier that makes the spell useful in the first place), and the strategy I posted was to illustrate the utter stupidity that would result if it could. The only reason I told you that spell didn't need an original duration based on caster level is because it, in fact, does not. Please do not lecture me about D&D sportsmanship or game balance. Persistent Spell can't apply to Temporal Acceleration anyway because Temporal Acceleration isn't a spell. The fact that we don't want Persistent Time Stops is a good reason to keep Extend Spell from applying to Time Stop, but since Persistent Power doesn't exist within WotC-published sources, there's no game-balance-related reason for WotC to prevent Extend Power from applying to Temporal Acceleration, so I didn't really press the issue. But thank you for completely missing the point of the conversation and then crowning me the king of game-killing munchkins. In celebration, I think I'm going to sign up for a level 1 play-by-post game with a character who can hit a DC 25 Knowledge: The Planes check.
Lycanthromancer 12-16-07, 03:31 PM	I can hit DC 35 by level 1. :P (Yes, I realize, that's not the point.)