Factotum Psionic? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Factotum Psionic? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
barna10
07-09-07, 11:33 PM Would you consider any of the Factotum's abilities to be psi-like abilities?
Genetic
07-09-07, 11:40 PM Well since they're all spell-like and extraordinary.... no.

What would be interesting would be a variant psionic factotum though.
InkBlot
07-10-07, 12:57 AM I'm DMing a game with a factotum in it. I let him use his daily spell like abilities to get psi-like abilities from the psion/wilder list as well.

For example, since he's 5th level he can get one spell of up to 1st level, and one spell of up to 2nd level. One day he chooses vigor and scorching ray. He manifests vigor as a psi-like ability at a manifester level equal to his factotum level, and gets 25 temporary HP. Then he casts scorching ray as a spell-like ability at a caster level equal to his factotum level, and fires one ray which deals 4d6 points of fire damage. Now he's out of spells for the day.

I've only run one session so far, and he hasn't used any powers yet. I'll let you know if we run into any problems.
Second
07-10-07, 01:38 AM I can think of one big problem: power scaling. A lower level power can be easily comparable to a higher level power simply through augmentation. I don't have the book in front of me at the moment but I think at lvl 20 they get 11 spell-likes per day. One 7th level spell, the rest at 6th or below. Replacing those with powers and fully augmenting them by your factotum level means all of your psi-likes together are worth 220 pp. It wouldn't have the sheer flexibilty of a real manifester, but it's like having an Erudite who picks his unique powers ahead of time, only uses them once each, and cranks them up as far as they'll go.

If could convince my DM to let me have a psionic factotum, that would be the second worst decision he could make next to allowing the Convert Spell to Power version of the Erudite. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :D
DogBackward
07-10-07, 01:55 AM Just say that any psionic power you take in manifested at the minimu ML, then each extra Inspiration Point you spend while manifesting it increases the ML by +2, up to your class level.
sooperspook
07-10-07, 07:03 AM Or you could limit the augmentation to the equivalent spell slot.
eg. a lvl 3 power augmented to use power points as a 5th level power takes up the 5th level spell slot.
DogBackward
07-10-07, 07:34 AM That's really not much of a limitation, though, as only one of their slots is limited by level. All of the other slots can be any level up to one below the max. So, you're only limiting the ML by 2 points. Though I guess there would be some extra limitations given the max spell level of 7th...

At 20th that gives them one spell at 13th ML, and seven spells at 11th ML. Not nearly as bad, I guess, but still a little better than normal.
InkBlot
07-10-07, 02:22 PM I can think of one big problem: power scaling. A lower level power can be easily comparable to a higher level power simply through augmentation. I don't have the book in front of me at the moment but I think at lvl 20 they get 11 spell-likes per day. One 7th level spell, the rest at 6th or below. Replacing those with powers and fully augmenting them by your factotum level means all of your psi-likes together are worth 220 pp.

You are underestimating the scaling of spells. 6th level spells can also scale up to 20d6. Chain lightning and shout, for example. Fully augmented 1st-6th level powers are no more powerful than 6th level spells cast at your full caster level.
CrimsonDeath
07-10-07, 04:09 PM But a fully augmented level 1 power can be more powerful than a level 1 spell at full caster level. Consider Inertial Armor versus Mage Armor, for example. A level 20 caster who casts Mage Armor gets a +4 armor bonus for twenty hours. A level 20 manifester who manifests a fully augmented Inertial Armor gets a +13 armor bonus for twenty hours-- not only better, but significantly better.
InkBlot
07-10-07, 05:04 PM But a fully augmented level 1 power can be more powerful than a level 1 spell at full caster level.
The thing is, the RAW 20th level factotum doesn't have to spend any of his spell-likes on 1st level spells. ALL of his spells should be either 6th or 7th level.

The 5th level factotum in my game could manifest concussion blast for 2d6 autohit force damage at medium range, and cast magic missile for 3d4+3 autohit force damage at medium range. There, see, spells scale too!

Spells generally scale to be useful 5 levels after you get them. Since a factotum never has to prepare anything but his highest level spells, they're always going to be scaling to their maximum usefulness (or very near it).

Factotums get fireball at 8th level, it caps out at 10th level. They get delayed blast fireball at 13th level, it caps out at 15th level. They get cone of cold at 17th level, it caps out 20th. There's a gap of about two levels between when their highest level spell caps out, and when they get a new level of spells. Besides those levels, their spells will be exactly as powerful as their powers. During those levels their powers will be, at most, one effective level (2pp) higher than their spells.

This is not game breaking! At worst, it lets them progress more smoothly in power than they could before. It doesn't give them any net gain in power.
DogBackward
07-10-07, 06:14 PM You're forgetting the damage cap on spells, and the fact that there aren't different level spells for each effect. if you want autohit force damage, the only thing you can really go for is Magic Missile. A 20th level Factotum would deal 5d4+5 with a Magic Missile, and 10d6 Force damage with Concussion Blast, without the mess of being blocked by the shield spell or Scarab. Not to mention, the possible damage scales pretty heftily when you consider that you can add an extra target for each -1d6 damage. That's 1d6 to 9 targets, 2d6 to 8, 3d6 to 7, 4d6 to 6, 5d6 to 5, 6d6 to 4, and so on. That's a total of 25d6 of unavoidable (save via SR/PR) Force damage as opposed to the Magic Missile's 5d4+5. Admittedly, it's an entire one spell/power level above Magic Missile... That's still a huge difference when actual spell/power level doesn't matter. And since there are no higher level auto-hit force damage spells (that I know of), this is a far better choice overall.

Even the Fireball example doesn't work, as at 20th level the Fireball deals 10d6 while the psionic equivalent is dealing 20d6+20, or ignoring hardness, or blasting Rogues with Cold damage since they can't Reflex it, and having a much larger range, even if it is centered on you.

The save DC's will also be greatly increased due to this, since they auto-increase with manifester level for Psi-Like ablilities. At a brief glance, they may seem to be even, but even a mildly close examination reveals that without a limiting factor, Psionics at full ML easily outstrips magic in power, especially when you have almost no limit to the max power level you can prepare.

It may not be entirely game breaking, as I haven't actually tested it to know for sure. But it is unbalanced, and it does, in fact, end up in a very large net increase in power.
NoldorForce
07-10-07, 06:25 PM You're forgetting the damage cap on spells, and the fact that there aren't different level spells for each effect. if you want autohit force damage, the only thing you can really go for is Magic Missile. A 20th level Factotum would deal 5d4+5 with a Magic Missile, and 10d6 Force damage with Concussion Blast, without the mess of being blocked by the shield spell or Scarab. Not to mention, the possible damage scales pretty heftily when you consider that you can add an extra target for each -1d6 damage. That's 1d6 to 9 targets, 2d6 to 8, 3d6 to 7, 4d6 to 6, 5d6 to 5, 6d6 to 4, and so on. That's a total of 25d6 of unavoidable (save via SR/PR) Force damage as opposed to the Magic Missile's 5d4+5. Admittedly, it's an entire one spell/power level above Magic Missile... That's still a huge difference when actual spell/power level doesn't matter. And since there are no higher level auto-hit force damage spells (that I know of), this is a far better choice overall.What about Force Missiles or Chain Missile?Even the Fireball example doesn't work, as at 20th level the Fireball deals 10d6 while the psionic equivalent is dealing 20d6+20, or ignoring hardness, or blasting Rogues with Cold damage since they can't Reflex it, and having a much larger range, even if it is centered on you.So the factotum switches to a different spell with higher auto-scaling. Because he can.The save DC's will also be greatly increased due to this, since they auto-increase with manifester level for Psi-Like ablilities.This is the only major difference, and likely requires addressing.

But auto-scaling and the ability to choose different (and higher level) spells make the effective output from them pretty much the same as with powers.
DogBackward
07-10-07, 06:47 PM I'm assuming core, since I don't know what books everybody has. I don't even have the books for those two spells, where are they?
InkBlot
07-10-07, 07:26 PM Thank you NoldorForce.

The factotum's player has to clear with me any non-core spell/power before preparing it. However, he has access to the Spell Compendium, Complete Arcane/Mage/Psionic/Warrior/Adventurer/Divine/Scoundrel, Tome Of Battle, Dungeonscape (obviously), Player's Handbook II, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Magic Item Compendium, Magic Of Eberron, Races Of Eberron, Eberron Campaign Setting (although it isn't an Eberron game), Forge Of War, and ... oh geeze, let's just say I'm using every 3.5 book available. Between everybody in my group, we own pretty much all of them.

The player actually printed out a list of every spell and power of 2nd level below. It's a few pages thick. I briefly considered making his character carry around a spellbook. But I figured the factotum's mind is like a bucket of legos - he's got the basic building blocks, so with a little effort and ingenuity he can make anything. Meanwhile a wizard is more like a model airplane enthusiast, and a sorcerer just has big box full of action figures and stuff.
CrimsonDeath
07-10-07, 08:25 PM The thing is, the RAW 20th level factotum doesn't have to spend any of his spell-likes on 1st level spells. ALL of his spells should be either 6th or 7th level.
I didn't realize that.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
barna10 07-09-07, 11:33 PM	Would you consider any of the Factotum's abilities to be psi-like abilities?
Genetic 07-09-07, 11:40 PM	Well since they're all spell-like and extraordinary.... no. What would be interesting would be a variant psionic factotum though.
InkBlot 07-10-07, 12:57 AM	I'm DMing a game with a factotum in it. I let him use his daily spell like abilities to get psi-like abilities from the psion/wilder list as well. For example, since he's 5th level he can get one spell of up to 1st level, and one spell of up to 2nd level. One day he chooses vigor and scorching ray. He manifests vigor as a psi-like ability at a manifester level equal to his factotum level, and gets 25 temporary HP. Then he casts scorching ray as a spell-like ability at a caster level equal to his factotum level, and fires one ray which deals 4d6 points of fire damage. Now he's out of spells for the day. I've only run one session so far, and he hasn't used any powers yet. I'll let you know if we run into any problems.
Second 07-10-07, 01:38 AM	I can think of one big problem: power scaling. A lower level power can be easily comparable to a higher level power simply through augmentation. I don't have the book in front of me at the moment but I think at lvl 20 they get 11 spell-likes per day. One 7th level spell, the rest at 6th or below. Replacing those with powers and fully augmenting them by your factotum level means all of your psi-likes together are worth 220 pp. It wouldn't have the sheer flexibilty of a real manifester, but it's like having an Erudite who picks his unique powers ahead of time, only uses them once each, and cranks them up as far as they'll go. If could convince my DM to let me have a psionic factotum, that would be the second worst decision he could make next to allowing the Convert Spell to Power version of the Erudite. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :D
DogBackward 07-10-07, 01:55 AM	Just say that any psionic power you take in manifested at the minimu ML, then each extra Inspiration Point you spend while manifesting it increases the ML by +2, up to your class level.
sooperspook 07-10-07, 07:03 AM	Or you could limit the augmentation to the equivalent spell slot. eg. a lvl 3 power augmented to use power points as a 5th level power takes up the 5th level spell slot.
DogBackward 07-10-07, 07:34 AM	That's really not much of a limitation, though, as only one of their slots is limited by level. All of the other slots can be any level up to one below the max. So, you're only limiting the ML by 2 points. Though I guess there would be some extra limitations given the max spell level of 7th... At 20th that gives them one spell at 13th ML, and seven spells at 11th ML. Not nearly as bad, I guess, but still a little better than normal.
InkBlot 07-10-07, 02:22 PM	I can think of one big problem: power scaling. A lower level power can be easily comparable to a higher level power simply through augmentation. I don't have the book in front of me at the moment but I think at lvl 20 they get 11 spell-likes per day. One 7th level spell, the rest at 6th or below. Replacing those with powers and fully augmenting them by your factotum level means all of your psi-likes together are worth 220 pp. You are underestimating the scaling of spells. 6th level spells can also scale up to 20d6. Chain lightning and shout, for example. Fully augmented 1st-6th level powers are no more powerful than 6th level spells cast at your full caster level.
CrimsonDeath 07-10-07, 04:09 PM	But a fully augmented level 1 power can be more powerful than a level 1 spell at full caster level. Consider Inertial Armor versus Mage Armor, for example. A level 20 caster who casts Mage Armor gets a +4 armor bonus for twenty hours. A level 20 manifester who manifests a fully augmented Inertial Armor gets a +13 armor bonus for twenty hours-- not only better, but significantly better.
InkBlot 07-10-07, 05:04 PM	But a fully augmented level 1 power can be more powerful than a level 1 spell at full caster level. The thing is, the RAW 20th level factotum doesn't have to spend any of his spell-likes on 1st level spells. ALL of his spells should be either 6th or 7th level. The 5th level factotum in my game could manifest concussion blast for 2d6 autohit force damage at medium range, and cast magic missile for 3d4+3 autohit force damage at medium range. There, see, spells scale too! Spells generally scale to be useful 5 levels after you get them. Since a factotum never has to prepare anything but his highest level spells, they're always going to be scaling to their maximum usefulness (or very near it). Factotums get fireball at 8th level, it caps out at 10th level. They get delayed blast fireball at 13th level, it caps out at 15th level. They get cone of cold at 17th level, it caps out 20th. There's a gap of about two levels between when their highest level spell caps out, and when they get a new level of spells. Besides those levels, their spells will be exactly as powerful as their powers. During those levels their powers will be, at most, one effective level (2pp) higher than their spells. This is not game breaking! At worst, it lets them progress more smoothly in power than they could before. It doesn't give them any net gain in power.
DogBackward 07-10-07, 06:14 PM	You're forgetting the damage cap on spells, and the fact that there aren't different level spells for each effect. if you want autohit force damage, the only thing you can really go for is Magic Missile. A 20th level Factotum would deal 5d4+5 with a Magic Missile, and 10d6 Force damage with Concussion Blast, without the mess of being blocked by the shield spell or Scarab. Not to mention, the possible damage scales pretty heftily when you consider that you can add an extra target for each -1d6 damage. That's 1d6 to 9 targets, 2d6 to 8, 3d6 to 7, 4d6 to 6, 5d6 to 5, 6d6 to 4, and so on. That's a total of 25d6 of unavoidable (save via SR/PR) Force damage as opposed to the Magic Missile's 5d4+5. Admittedly, it's an entire one spell/power level above Magic Missile... That's still a huge difference when actual spell/power level doesn't matter. And since there are no higher level auto-hit force damage spells (that I know of), this is a far better choice overall. Even the Fireball example doesn't work, as at 20th level the Fireball deals 10d6 while the psionic equivalent is dealing 20d6+20, or ignoring hardness, or blasting Rogues with Cold damage since they can't Reflex it, and having a much larger range, even if it is centered on you. The save DC's will also be greatly increased due to this, since they auto-increase with manifester level for Psi-Like ablilities. At a brief glance, they may seem to be even, but even a mildly close examination reveals that without a limiting factor, Psionics at full ML easily outstrips magic in power, especially when you have almost no limit to the max power level you can prepare. It may not be entirely game breaking, as I haven't actually tested it to know for sure. But it is unbalanced, and it does, in fact, end up in a very large net increase in power.
NoldorForce 07-10-07, 06:25 PM	You're forgetting the damage cap on spells, and the fact that there aren't different level spells for each effect. if you want autohit force damage, the only thing you can really go for is Magic Missile. A 20th level Factotum would deal 5d4+5 with a Magic Missile, and 10d6 Force damage with Concussion Blast, without the mess of being blocked by the shield spell or Scarab. Not to mention, the possible damage scales pretty heftily when you consider that you can add an extra target for each -1d6 damage. That's 1d6 to 9 targets, 2d6 to 8, 3d6 to 7, 4d6 to 6, 5d6 to 5, 6d6 to 4, and so on. That's a total of 25d6 of unavoidable (save via SR/PR) Force damage as opposed to the Magic Missile's 5d4+5. Admittedly, it's an entire one spell/power level above Magic Missile... That's still a huge difference when actual spell/power level doesn't matter. And since there are no higher level auto-hit force damage spells (that I know of), this is a far better choice overall.What about Force Missiles or Chain Missile?Even the Fireball example doesn't work, as at 20th level the Fireball deals 10d6 while the psionic equivalent is dealing 20d6+20, or ignoring hardness, or blasting Rogues with Cold damage since they can't Reflex it, and having a much larger range, even if it is centered on you.So the factotum switches to a different spell with higher auto-scaling. Because he can.The save DC's will also be greatly increased due to this, since they auto-increase with manifester level for Psi-Like ablilities.This is the only major difference, and likely requires addressing. But auto-scaling and the ability to choose different (and higher level) spells make the effective output from them pretty much the same as with powers.
DogBackward 07-10-07, 06:47 PM	I'm assuming core, since I don't know what books everybody has. I don't even have the books for those two spells, where are they?
InkBlot 07-10-07, 07:26 PM	Thank you NoldorForce. The factotum's player has to clear with me any non-core spell/power before preparing it. However, he has access to the Spell Compendium, Complete Arcane/Mage/Psionic/Warrior/Adventurer/Divine/Scoundrel, Tome Of Battle, Dungeonscape (obviously), Player's Handbook II, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Magic Item Compendium, Magic Of Eberron, Races Of Eberron, Eberron Campaign Setting (although it isn't an Eberron game), Forge Of War, and ... oh geeze, let's just say I'm using every 3.5 book available. Between everybody in my group, we own pretty much all of them. The player actually printed out a list of every spell and power of 2nd level below. It's a few pages thick. I briefly considered making his character carry around a spellbook. But I figured the factotum's mind is like a bucket of legos - he's got the basic building blocks, so with a little effort and ingenuity he can make anything. Meanwhile a wizard is more like a model airplane enthusiast, and a sorcerer just has big box full of action figures and stuff.
CrimsonDeath 07-10-07, 08:25 PM	The thing is, the RAW 20th level factotum doesn't have to spend any of his spell-likes on 1st level spells. ALL of his spells should be either 6th or 7th level. I didn't realize that.