Few questions about Psionics/Psions. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Few questions about Psionics/Psions. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LQT
05-23-07, 05:31 PM Greetings everybody,

1. Here is the situation:

I RP with pretty big group of people. We all have been rping together for a long time. Campaigns we run are pretty much massive and can last for very long time - provided that you stay alive.

I dont know if others do this but besides RPing and questing in campaigns against NPC's controlled by DM, 50% of all PC's participating and RPing are evil and working together with those NPC's. In essence we have lot of "good" PC's vs. "evil" PC*s interaction, scheming and fighting.

What this all comes down to is that our DM is pretty strict and hardcore. Encounters are usually pretty tough and complicated. PC's do die on both side (remember the "good" vs. "evil") and when you die you are done provided that non of your friends are unable to come up with legit way to revive you. Oh and PC vs. PC encounters do also happen.

Anyway evil side plotted, schemed and managed to kill me. It does not really matter since about all other good aligned PC's are about to die (or already dead) which means that whole campaign is pretty much over. We run campaigns from very first level to as far as characters are able to make it so there is no level cap whatsoever provided that you stay alive etc. - well it all gets complex in time when campaign progresses.

We are about to start new campaign in few weeks. Our DM said that we'll start all over again as usual and go as far as we can make it.

2. Here are my questions:

Since we are starting over I need a new PC and am concidering try to RP as Psion. Taking into acocunt how hard core some of our campaigns have proved to be I am a bit worried so please help me with these noob questions.

a) Can a Psion hold his own in the long run in general?

b) Provided that I stay alive long enough... Most higher up monsters have high SR values so what can a Psion do against all those high SR's?

c) While it has proven to be very dangerous I already know that in then end PC vs. PC encounters will happen between "good" side and "evil" side so how does a Psion do against other "caster" classes mainly 1. Wizards 2. Clerics and 3. Druids?

and last but not the least:

Please help me with my character design that works well in the type of game we run:

- long campaigns from very first level to as far as you can make it (even beyond epic if you manage to make it that far, not that anyone ever has been able to in our games).

- PC vs. PC encounters do happen and all base classes are represented with multiple variations be it clerics, druids, wizards etc. (I am prpably going to be only Psion because no one else seems interested to play as one!)

So of which race should I be?

of which Psion class should I be (Shaper, Telepath etc.)?

should I be pure Psion?

how about Psionic PrC's?

etc.? please help me with this.

Thanks in advance,

LQT
crizhII
05-23-07, 05:55 PM a) Yeah sure, you'll have to put more thought into things as you'll be more like a Sorceror than a Wizard.

b) Power Penetration, Greater Power Penetration, Psionic Mastery. That's +4, +8 and take 10. If you can squeeze all three of those in you'll have no trouble against SR/PR. You could use Overchannel as well but I don't see the point.

c) Others will tell you that Wizards own Psions. I don't agree, most of the reasons are down to cheese that most DM's will laugh out of town and a lack of Psionic material compared to Arcane. The secret is good planning, judicious use of Psychic Reformation, Contingency and Temporal Acceleration and a DM that doesn't nerf you every time you go Nova. (see FAQ)

If the game contains both good and evil PC's I'd recommend going Evil this time out. There aren't many options for goody two shoes Psions but the evil ones have some killer plays that are just too good to miss. Mind Seed, Mind Switch with Astral Seed, Thrallherd and I'm having some great laughs with Puppetteers in the game I'm running just now.

Will your game be Fully, Semi or Non Transparent?

If one of the second two I heartily recommend a 1 level dip into Ardent to pick up the Magic Mantle. That gives you a huge advantage over Casters in a Non-Transparent game.
LQT
05-23-07, 06:17 PM Thanks for the advice. This time I am propably going to be one of the PC's who leans towards evil. I just asked the DM and he said it is going to be fully transparent.
bluetooth
05-23-07, 06:59 PM I'm not an expert at psionics, but I've been getting into it lately. I can definitely say that psions certainly hold their own when shoulder to shoulder with the wizard. When going up against the wizard...things get a little bit more complicated. DnD is a strategy game, and a big chunk of that strategy is character creation and preparation.

I suggest that you determine exactly what you want your psion to do. If you want to kill enemy wizards and psions, then you can spec in that direction and be EXTREMELY good at it. Be prepared, however, for those players to either come back with psions of their own, or anti-psionicist Sor/Wiz which can be equally deadly if you aren't prepared.

Now the big problem for psions is that a lot of what they do is mind affection and have will saves. these are what you use on fighters and other big gruff guys. Sorcerers and Wizards, like you, have low HP, and you have nice stuff like crystal shard that (if your the same level) will do as many d6s of damage as they have d4s in HD. Unfortunately they can do similar things to you as well (and their damage scales better than yours at higher levels). If you choose to just try to take them out with strait HP damage, go with high dex and improved initiative can you REALLY need to attack first. More Strategic plans might involve a grappling astral construct or becoming invisible, getting in the middle of them and then letting loose with Energy Ball and then maybe a quickened energy ball.

Now I don't know exactly what kind of character you want to go with, but another advantage that psions have is the ease with which they can make hybrid "caster"/melee builds. An Ardent/illithid slayer is just one of many really powerful hybrid builds (called "gish"'s) that psions can go for. And since you have full transparency, just throw up a antimagic field and cut the poor wizard to ribbons with your (now) masterwork greatsword. (like I said I'm not an expect, so I don't know if feats like Psionic Weapon work on an antipsionic field but I think they don't) That being said, arcanists canmake effect gish builds, but you should be able to spot the difference before you decide on your tactics.

But all of that is just if your alone. I think, in the context of a team fight, the most effective thing you can do is teleport around taking your fighter-types right up against their wizard types, and then blast their fighter types with Ego whip/Mind Thrust. (You should look at all the different Dimension spells, arcanists have Dimension door, but you will have Door, slide, hop and swap)

In the end, my inexpert opinion is that psionic characters are even more tactically based than arcanists, so your prior planning (and luck) will have a big effect on how the fight goes. Forewarned is forearmed...and turning their fighters against their wizards is just fun. Lemme know if any of that helps
Tempest Stormwind
05-23-07, 08:40 PM a) Can a Psion hold his own in the long run in general?If he paces himself, yes. You live and die with your power point totals. Preserve those and you'll do fine.

You'll find some psion types (kineticist in particular) burn through PP far quicker than other types (seer and shaper in particular). It's just a matter of picking efficient powers. I'm not saying the kineticist is inefficient, mind you -- just objectively costly.b) Provided that I stay alive long enough... Most higher up monsters have high SR values so what can a Psion do against all those high SR's?By default, SR is effective against psions just as it is against wizards.

Carrying SR: No powers (crystal shard and astral construct are two popular choices) is the easiest way to bypass it. Another interesting trick is to focus on the area around the enemies instead of the enemies themselves, although magic is generally better at this than psionics.c) While it has proven to be very dangerous I already know that in then end PC vs. PC encounters will happen between "good" side and "evil" side so how does a Psion do against other "caster" classes mainly 1. Wizards 2. Clerics and 3. Druids?Psions can be strong, ESPECIALLY if there's only one encounter for the day and you are aware of this (i.e. arena style), but they aren't as strong as clerics, druids, or wizards. The first two are objectively overpowering, and wizards have access to EVERY broken spell in the game plus their incredible synergies.

A good psion can hold their own but will eventually die to these characters. I don't see this as a flaw in the psion so much as in the other three, though (since they cause problems everywhere).So of which race should I be?

of which Psion class should I be (Shaper, Telepath etc.)?

should I be pure Psion?

how about Psionic PrC's?

etc.? please help me with this.It really depends what you want to do with your psion. There's no 'best" discipline for this (although I'd suggest shaper or telepath over kineticist depending on the environment). You also might want to consider seer -- forewarned is forearmed, and if the other PCs don't guard their intentions and actions like the paranoid Gnomish Mafia, you'll be able to figure out what they're going to do before they know it.

If you're used to mages, consider this: Unlike mage PrCs, all psionic PrCs lose at least one ML. Thus, the most powerful psion... is a Psion. However, a psion may be the best at manifesting but lacks the specialization a PrC might be able to provide.
crizhII
05-24-07, 06:01 AM Thanks for the advice. This time I am propably going to be one of the PC's who leans towards evil. I just asked the DM and he said it is going to be fully transparent.

Well, like Tempest said, stick with Psion. Telepath is pretty good if you plan to be evil. Thrallherd is also worthwhile if you don't mind losing one or two manifester levels.

In a transparent game, RAW, Dispel Psionics is way better than Dispel Magic and you have access to stuf like Dispelling Buffer and Shatter Mind Blank that Wizards don't.
oyster
05-24-07, 07:53 AM You should also consider Cerebremancer.
It's full Caster/Manifester prestige.
I am currently playing a Psion 2 / Anarchic Initiate 1 / Wizard 3 / Cerebremancer 10 PC. True I don't have 8th & 9th level spells & powers as my fellow wizard of the same level in the party, but I'll be able to kick his ass any time.

We both rely on the same protective spells. Only he has to allocate roughly the same amount of daily spells both to offense and defense while I only have to allocate for defense since my Psion can dish out a whole lot of damage. Also, the Psion best damage powers are lower level anyway.

Another thing to consider: you can cast contingency on Dweomer of Transference (XPH 220), say when your daily PP drops below 1/2 total. Then you are both immune to his damaging spells *AND* you gain temp PPs that you can use to dish out even more damage.

But you will require some death ward of some kind, since when hit with enervation, it hurts double!! ;)
LQT
05-25-07, 04:05 PM Hello all and thanks for your repyes.

Unfortunately I have decided to not to play as Psion.

I fell in love with concept of playing as Dread Necromancer/Fiendbinder or Dread Necromancer/Nar Demonbinder.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LQT 05-23-07, 05:31 PM	Greetings everybody, 1. Here is the situation: I RP with pretty big group of people. We all have been rping together for a long time. Campaigns we run are pretty much massive and can last for very long time - provided that you stay alive. I dont know if others do this but besides RPing and questing in campaigns against NPC's controlled by DM, 50% of all PC's participating and RPing are evil and working together with those NPC's. In essence we have lot of "good" PC's vs. "evil" PC*s interaction, scheming and fighting. What this all comes down to is that our DM is pretty strict and hardcore. Encounters are usually pretty tough and complicated. PC's do die on both side (remember the "good" vs. "evil") and when you die you are done provided that non of your friends are unable to come up with legit way to revive you. Oh and PC vs. PC encounters do also happen. Anyway evil side plotted, schemed and managed to kill me. It does not really matter since about all other good aligned PC's are about to die (or already dead) which means that whole campaign is pretty much over. We run campaigns from very first level to as far as characters are able to make it so there is no level cap whatsoever provided that you stay alive etc. - well it all gets complex in time when campaign progresses. We are about to start new campaign in few weeks. Our DM said that we'll start all over again as usual and go as far as we can make it. 2. Here are my questions: Since we are starting over I need a new PC and am concidering try to RP as Psion. Taking into acocunt how hard core some of our campaigns have proved to be I am a bit worried so please help me with these noob questions. a) Can a Psion hold his own in the long run in general? b) Provided that I stay alive long enough... Most higher up monsters have high SR values so what can a Psion do against all those high SR's? c) While it has proven to be very dangerous I already know that in then end PC vs. PC encounters will happen between "good" side and "evil" side so how does a Psion do against other "caster" classes mainly 1. Wizards 2. Clerics and 3. Druids? and last but not the least: Please help me with my character design that works well in the type of game we run: - long campaigns from very first level to as far as you can make it (even beyond epic if you manage to make it that far, not that anyone ever has been able to in our games). - PC vs. PC encounters do happen and all base classes are represented with multiple variations be it clerics, druids, wizards etc. (I am prpably going to be only Psion because no one else seems interested to play as one!) So of which race should I be? of which Psion class should I be (Shaper, Telepath etc.)? should I be pure Psion? how about Psionic PrC's? etc.? please help me with this. Thanks in advance, LQT
crizhII 05-23-07, 05:55 PM	a) Yeah sure, you'll have to put more thought into things as you'll be more like a Sorceror than a Wizard. b) Power Penetration, Greater Power Penetration, Psionic Mastery. That's +4, +8 and take 10. If you can squeeze all three of those in you'll have no trouble against SR/PR. You could use Overchannel as well but I don't see the point. c) Others will tell you that Wizards own Psions. I don't agree, most of the reasons are down to cheese that most DM's will laugh out of town and a lack of Psionic material compared to Arcane. The secret is good planning, judicious use of Psychic Reformation, Contingency and Temporal Acceleration and a DM that doesn't nerf you every time you go Nova. (see FAQ) If the game contains both good and evil PC's I'd recommend going Evil this time out. There aren't many options for goody two shoes Psions but the evil ones have some killer plays that are just too good to miss. Mind Seed, Mind Switch with Astral Seed, Thrallherd and I'm having some great laughs with Puppetteers in the game I'm running just now. Will your game be Fully, Semi or Non Transparent? If one of the second two I heartily recommend a 1 level dip into Ardent to pick up the Magic Mantle. That gives you a huge advantage over Casters in a Non-Transparent game.
LQT 05-23-07, 06:17 PM	Thanks for the advice. This time I am propably going to be one of the PC's who leans towards evil. I just asked the DM and he said it is going to be fully transparent.
bluetooth 05-23-07, 06:59 PM	I'm not an expert at psionics, but I've been getting into it lately. I can definitely say that psions certainly hold their own when shoulder to shoulder with the wizard. When going up against the wizard...things get a little bit more complicated. DnD is a strategy game, and a big chunk of that strategy is character creation and preparation. I suggest that you determine exactly what you want your psion to do. If you want to kill enemy wizards and psions, then you can spec in that direction and be EXTREMELY good at it. Be prepared, however, for those players to either come back with psions of their own, or anti-psionicist Sor/Wiz which can be equally deadly if you aren't prepared. Now the big problem for psions is that a lot of what they do is mind affection and have will saves. these are what you use on fighters and other big gruff guys. Sorcerers and Wizards, like you, have low HP, and you have nice stuff like crystal shard that (if your the same level) will do as many d6s of damage as they have d4s in HD. Unfortunately they can do similar things to you as well (and their damage scales better than yours at higher levels). If you choose to just try to take them out with strait HP damage, go with high dex and improved initiative can you REALLY need to attack first. More Strategic plans might involve a grappling astral construct or becoming invisible, getting in the middle of them and then letting loose with Energy Ball and then maybe a quickened energy ball. Now I don't know exactly what kind of character you want to go with, but another advantage that psions have is the ease with which they can make hybrid "caster"/melee builds. An Ardent/illithid slayer is just one of many really powerful hybrid builds (called "gish"'s) that psions can go for. And since you have full transparency, just throw up a antimagic field and cut the poor wizard to ribbons with your (now) masterwork greatsword. (like I said I'm not an expect, so I don't know if feats like Psionic Weapon work on an antipsionic field but I think they don't) That being said, arcanists canmake effect gish builds, but you should be able to spot the difference before you decide on your tactics. But all of that is just if your alone. I think, in the context of a team fight, the most effective thing you can do is teleport around taking your fighter-types right up against their wizard types, and then blast their fighter types with Ego whip/Mind Thrust. (You should look at all the different Dimension spells, arcanists have Dimension door, but you will have Door, slide, hop and swap) In the end, my inexpert opinion is that psionic characters are even more tactically based than arcanists, so your prior planning (and luck) will have a big effect on how the fight goes. Forewarned is forearmed...and turning their fighters against their wizards is just fun. Lemme know if any of that helps
Tempest Stormwind 05-23-07, 08:40 PM	a) Can a Psion hold his own in the long run in general?If he paces himself, yes. You live and die with your power point totals. Preserve those and you'll do fine. You'll find some psion types (kineticist in particular) burn through PP far quicker than other types (seer and shaper in particular). It's just a matter of picking efficient powers. I'm not saying the kineticist is inefficient, mind you -- just objectively costly.b) Provided that I stay alive long enough... Most higher up monsters have high SR values so what can a Psion do against all those high SR's?By default, SR is effective against psions just as it is against wizards. Carrying SR: No powers (crystal shard and astral construct are two popular choices) is the easiest way to bypass it. Another interesting trick is to focus on the area around the enemies instead of the enemies themselves, although magic is generally better at this than psionics.c) While it has proven to be very dangerous I already know that in then end PC vs. PC encounters will happen between "good" side and "evil" side so how does a Psion do against other "caster" classes mainly 1. Wizards 2. Clerics and 3. Druids?Psions can be strong, ESPECIALLY if there's only one encounter for the day and you are aware of this (i.e. arena style), but they aren't as strong as clerics, druids, or wizards. The first two are objectively overpowering, and wizards have access to EVERY broken spell in the game plus their incredible synergies. A good psion can hold their own but will eventually die to these characters. I don't see this as a flaw in the psion so much as in the other three, though (since they cause problems everywhere).So of which race should I be? of which Psion class should I be (Shaper, Telepath etc.)? should I be pure Psion? how about Psionic PrC's? etc.? please help me with this.It really depends what you want to do with your psion. There's no 'best" discipline for this (although I'd suggest shaper or telepath over kineticist depending on the environment). You also might want to consider seer -- forewarned is forearmed, and if the other PCs don't guard their intentions and actions like the paranoid Gnomish Mafia, you'll be able to figure out what they're going to do before they know it. If you're used to mages, consider this: Unlike mage PrCs, all psionic PrCs lose at least one ML. Thus, the most powerful psion... is a Psion. However, a psion may be the best at manifesting but lacks the specialization a PrC might be able to provide.
crizhII 05-24-07, 06:01 AM	Thanks for the advice. This time I am propably going to be one of the PC's who leans towards evil. I just asked the DM and he said it is going to be fully transparent. Well, like Tempest said, stick with Psion. Telepath is pretty good if you plan to be evil. Thrallherd is also worthwhile if you don't mind losing one or two manifester levels. In a transparent game, RAW, Dispel Psionics is way better than Dispel Magic and you have access to stuf like Dispelling Buffer and Shatter Mind Blank that Wizards don't.
oyster 05-24-07, 07:53 AM	You should also consider Cerebremancer. It's full Caster/Manifester prestige. I am currently playing a Psion 2 / Anarchic Initiate 1 / Wizard 3 / Cerebremancer 10 PC. True I don't have 8th & 9th level spells & powers as my fellow wizard of the same level in the party, but I'll be able to kick his ass any time. We both rely on the same protective spells. Only he has to allocate roughly the same amount of daily spells both to offense and defense while I only have to allocate for defense since my Psion can dish out a whole lot of damage. Also, the Psion best damage powers are lower level anyway. Another thing to consider: you can cast contingency on Dweomer of Transference (XPH 220), say when your daily PP drops below 1/2 total. Then you are both immune to his damaging spells AND you gain temp PPs that you can use to dish out even more damage. But you will require some death ward of some kind, since when hit with enervation, it hurts double!! ;)
LQT 05-25-07, 04:05 PM	Hello all and thanks for your repyes. Unfortunately I have decided to not to play as Psion. I fell in love with concept of playing as Dread Necromancer/Fiendbinder or Dread Necromancer/Nar Demonbinder.