Post/Author/DateTime	Post
metaridley18 02-16-08, 12:18 PM	Hello, I play a kineticist in a campaign with several characters from ToB, and we often seem to go five or six encounters daily-which really highlights the Psion's weakness. I've heard that some of the recommendations for changing Psions were to implement a system were they would get fewer power points, but they would regenerate hourly or something. I was thinking of something more along the lines of "Max pp is twice your manifester level, but if you spend five minutes meditating, you regain all your pp," making it more like the ToB system of maneuvers per encounter. I haven't put much thought into how bonus pp for intelligence and whatnot works. Honestly, the 2x ML was based on my kineticist's pp/4. So, is there a system somewhere already based on this idea, and if not, how can mine be made better/what are some of the problems with it that I haven't thought of? Thanks for the input!
archerpwr 02-16-08, 02:44 PM	Twice times ML actually sounds pretty reasonable. That's one high end power and two low end powers per encounter.
Lycanthromancer 02-16-08, 03:09 PM	If you do that, you could have a feat chain to grant a few extra power points per encounter each time you expend your psionic focus. Perhaps 1/2 the metapsionic cost for a metapsionic feat, and 1/2 your manifester level (minimum 1) for simply expending it for no other purpose. Could be useful.
archerpwr 02-16-08, 03:19 PM	You should also have some per day pp for all day buffs. I'd suggest 1/4 the amount of pp the rules normally grant you in that pp fund.
Eldritch_Lord 02-16-08, 03:44 PM	Honestly, the 2x ML was based on my kineticist's pp/4. Since the psion's PP reserve is based on an expected 4 encounters/day, I'd say just give him 1/4 normal PP per encounter. You had the right instincts.
metaridley18 02-16-08, 11:17 PM	Well, thanks for all the "not a bad idea" comments. Should I include anything based on a high manifesting stat? I feel like 2x ML ignores that a little too much. Thanks for the other ideas; the feat tree is an awesome idea.
archerpwr 02-16-08, 11:19 PM	Well, thanks for all the "not a bad idea" comments. Should I include anything based on a high manifesting stat? I feel like 2x ML ignores that a little too much. Thanks for the other ideas; the feat tree is an awesome idea. 2x ML is pretty fair IMO. Simply making it 1/4 pp you would get if determined normally would make it a little more work to figure out, but would also be fine.
Lycanthromancer 02-16-08, 11:23 PM	I'd say manifesting score -10 for bonus pp. Or do as Archer suggested and do 1/4 the original amount in pp. Also, check the powers revision in my sig. Talents would be uber-useful in that campaign. :D
metaridley18 02-17-08, 12:25 AM	Well, thanks for all the feedback. Now to fight the good fight with my DM! Lycan, I'll have to look at your powers revision when I'm at home and have some more time.
Bacris 02-17-08, 12:55 AM	1/4 PP is fine, if your DM goes with encounters of your CR. But if you're in an encounter 1-2 CR higher, you might have problems. Just something to keep in mind.
Scion of Coldshard 02-17-08, 01:34 AM	Having a refreshing amount that is low can work. For the situations like Bacris mentioned you might need to add in something extra.. some sort of 'overburn' ability. It could do anything from damaging yourself to reducing your pp pool later in the day to fatiguing you.. whatever.. it just has to be a Very Bad Plan and to only be used in emergencies..
Lycanthromancer 02-17-08, 01:47 AM	How about... You wake up with a growth on your face. http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/20020604.jpg
calronmoonflower 02-17-08, 03:50 AM	Well, you could set power point recovery a set number per alloted amount of time and reduce the power point pool.
kelvinaw273 02-17-08, 03:52 AM	Hello, I play a kineticist in a campaign with several characters from ToB, and we often seem to go five or six encounters daily-which really highlights the Psion's weakness. I've heard that some of the recommendations for changing Psions were to implement a system were they would get fewer power points, but they would regenerate hourly or something. I was thinking of something more along the lines of "Max pp is twice your manifester level, but if you spend five minutes meditating, you regain all your pp," making it more like the ToB system of maneuvers per encounter. I haven't put much thought into how bonus pp for intelligence and whatnot works. Honestly, the 2x ML was based on my kineticist's pp/4. So, is there a system somewhere already based on this idea, and if not, how can mine be made better/what are some of the problems with it that I haven't thought of? Thanks for the input! Or you could just learn to use your points wisely, using largely low-level, un-augmented powers until you really need them, or get your hands on some power point reserves. Some powers are good to use in these circumstances - inertial armour has a duration in hours, other powers with long durations can last several encounters - using these will last several encounters. Concentrate on tactics and using your powers where the ToB melee-monsters can't effect something much. Where they can do the business, sit back and let them. They will appreciate it much more when they run into the monster they cannot effect and you blow it away, than if you help out in a few encounters they could have dealt with and are useless in the rest.
Lycanthromancer 02-17-08, 11:12 AM	I had a blue goblin shaper/constructor that, due to power selection and intelligent strategy, could last for a few dozen combats per day at 16th level. On his (rare) days off he would use his Craft skills to create alchemical items, poisons, and so on, and I would devise ways of deploying them that would obliterate his foes. Quintessence was instrumental in this, as I would spend his entire remaining reserve of power points each night to create a great deal of it, and use it to coat the inside of his Portable Hole (for use as a trap and holding cell for creatures we captured), and so on. My astral constructs lasted 1 minute per level (which I would Extend). I would deploy one big one and a handful of little ones to Aid Another on grapple and bull-rush checks to maneuver foes into my energy walls, I'd use wall of ectoplasm, energy wall, and psionic fabricate to mold the battlefield to my whim, and I'd pelt the enemy with energy conversions, ectoplasmic coccoons and unaugmented psionic greases and entangling ectoplasms. I also crafted dorjes and the occasional power stone to further his stamina. It was amazingly pp-efficient. It wasn't exactly a nova build, but since I was the only 'caster' in the entire party, I figured I might as well help them do their jobs.
Katash 02-19-08, 12:29 AM	If you've got Hyperconscious there is a couple of feats that let you 1. Have constrcts last 10 minper manifestation and manifest a DD ray (i.e.disintegrate) for free 1 rd/ML. Adds alot of endurance.
The_Mess 02-19-08, 12:34 PM	One problem I see with the "per encounter" idea is that a lot of psionic powers aren't just useful in combat encounters. A psion abusing his telepathy to infilitrate an enemy base, how does this work? Is meeting every guard a new encounter, giving him effectively infinite pp? Is the entire infilitration one, giving him no prayer of completing it?
InkBlot 02-19-08, 01:57 PM	A psion abusing his telepathy to infilitrate an enemy base, how does this work? Is meeting every guard a new encounter, giving him effectively infinite pp? "Abusing?" "Giving him effectively infinite pp?" You're saying that like it's a bad thing. That's what telepathy (though I don't know which power you had in mind) is supposed to be able to do. Even a standard 6th level psion can manifest read thoughts 30 times without running out of power points. However, you bring up a good point. When adjusting things to be balanced for an undefined number of encounters in a day, instead of only 4 encounters in a day, it's important to look at each individual ability and judge it on it's own. There are many things which may at first seem broken when made usable at-will, but can be easily adjusted to be just fine. For example, would you consider having knock at-will broken? What if it took a minute to cast, and wasn't available until 5th level? A Rogue can open locks as a full-round action at-will starting at 1st level. To use the infiltrating-the-enemy-base example again, a Rogue can make bluff checks at-will all day long. To convince an enemy he's one of them, the Rogue has to roll a Bluff check (1d20 + level + 3 + ability + misc) to beat the enemy's Sense Motive check (10* + level + 3 + ability + misc, at best). To convince an enemy he's one of them, the Psion has to have a Save DC (10 + 1/2 level + ability + misc) to beat the enemy's Will save (1d20 + 1/2 level + 2 + ability + misc, at best). Whether it's telepathy or people-skills, there's an even risk of failure. Dantalion, a 5th level vestige, grants read thoughts as a supernatural ability once-per-five-rounds. Otiax, also 5th level, grants the supernatural ability to open any lock with a DC of up to 2x your effective binder level, as a full round action, once per five rounds. I play a binder in my groups current game, and it's not broken. If you're going to give a Psion infinite power points, then you need to look through the Psion power list and make small changes to some powers. Sometimes just changing the power level is enough. Often you may need to change the manifestation time drastically (like from one standard action to one hour). Still other powers will need custom restrictions, like limiting the number of creatures you can have charmed at once (like the Warlock's charm invocation). And then you need to playtest it to make sure your guesses were right.
The_Mess 02-19-08, 04:03 PM	"Abusing?" "Giving him effectively infinite pp?" You're saying that like it's a bad thing. Hey, now, I've argued long and vociferously that psionic abilities all should be at will, infinite. That's how psionics is portrayed in most media. I'm just saying it's a significant power increase over where they are now. For example, would you consider having knock at-will broken? What if it took a minute to cast, and wasn't available until 5th level? A Rogue can open locks as a full-round action at-will starting at 1st level. Well, everything has to be looked at as a package. The rogue might have at will open locks at first, which the Psion has to wait for, but the Psion's doesn't have a failure chance, and the psion can do a bunch of other things while the rogue can also... sneak attack. Rogue's infinite uses balanced (hypothetically) with the psion's greater flexibility but limited pp supply. Giving them per encounter recharge means the Rogue gets no advantage at all. But, hey, why play a rogue when you can play a psion? Got me, but some people like it. : - ) To use the infiltrating-the-enemy-base example again, a Rogue can make bluff checks at-will all day long. To convince an enemy he's one of them, the Rogue has to roll a Bluff check (1d20 + level + 3 + ability + misc) to beat the enemy's Sense Motive check (10* + level + 3 + ability + misc, at best). To convince an enemy he's one of them, the Psion has to have a Save DC (10 + 1/2 level + ability + misc) to beat the enemy's Will save (1d20 + 1/2 level + 2 + ability + misc, at best). Whether it's telepathy or people-skills, there's an even risk of failure. You can find a class that will be able to match this variant psion in any one field. The psion will still have more flexibility. Or so it looks to me. I admit, I don't have much of an eye for game balance.
Eldritch_Lord 02-19-08, 04:24 PM	One problem I see with the "per encounter" idea is that a lot of psionic powers aren't just useful in combat encounters. A psion abusing his telepathy to infilitrate an enemy base, how does this work? Is meeting every guard a new encounter, giving him effectively infinite pp? Is the entire infilitration one, giving him no prayer of completing it? Usually encounter powers refresh automatically after 1 minute, so it's perfectly within reason to say that either you can't use the power again, or you don't refresh PP, until 1 minute has passed even if it's a new encounter if you're worried about brokenness. I'd only do this for specific powers, but breaking powers into "Yeah, go ahead, use them as much as you want", "No, wait a few minutes", and "More than once a day? Heck no!" lists sounds like it would work.
Lycanthromancer 02-19-08, 04:32 PM	And...here comes 4e. :P
Eldritch_Lord 02-19-08, 05:59 PM	And...here comes 4e. :P But not until PHB2 at the earliest, so this isn't exactly a waste of time.