Finally joining the dark side [Archive] - Wizards Community

Finally joining the dark side [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Krusk
01-21-08, 01:37 AM So with 4th edition looming, I decided I would finally give psionics a shot with the final campaign I ran. I have finally decided to re-open the expanded psionics handbook, and re-read it giving it another shot. It didn't look half bad.

That said I have never run psionics, and want to know of any general advice people have. Things to watch out for. Common houserules. Common over powered combos. Common underpowered classes. Rules that are confusing. Erratta I should definatly read. ECT.

There will be no arcane casting classes, and I generally run 2-3+ encounters a day. To watch for nova-ing. Most underpowered nonpsionic classes have homebrew stuff added to them to beef them up in power to around TOB classes, or down in power to TOB classes as needed.

Players will have access to
Expanded psionic handbook
Players handbook
PHB 2
Complete adventurer
Complete warrior
Complete scoundrel
Complete champion
Magic Item Compendium
Tome of Battle
And one player has complete psionic. but we will not be using the psionic nerfs presented in it, just prestige, base classes, and feats. (was warned on this one already)

I am also thinking of limiting the races to
Human
Elf
Dwarf
Halfling
Elan
Dromite
HAlf-Giant
Both types of Gith
Minead
Xeph

Again thanks a ton for any help, and I hope this runs smoothly.
Deekin
01-21-08, 01:40 AM Did you read the Sticked threads at the top of the Forum? They have some useful links.
Krusk
01-21-08, 01:44 AM Did you read the Sticked threads at the top of the Forum? They have some useful links.

Like everyone else who is first time to a forum I totally forgot to do so. And will do that right now.
CrimsonDeath
01-21-08, 02:37 AM #1 thing to remember: You can never spend more PP on a power than your Manifester Level. This is why a Psion can't throw a 7d10 Mind Thrust at level 1; the best he can do is 2d10 if he uses Overchannel (which hurts him).

#2 thing to remember: You have only one Psionic Focus. That means you can only apply one metapsionic feat to a power, and you can't use (for example) Psionic Weapon and Deep Impact on the same attack. The only way to overcome this limitation is by spending two feats on Psicrystal Affinity and Psicrystal Containment (in addition to whatever feats you're taking to expend your focus on), and that's still only two focuses to expend at once (or one to expend and one to maintain).

Confusing powers: Metaconcert

Powers to watch out for: Bestow Power (can fuel PP recharge for a Wilder), Synchronicity (by some readings can grant extra actions), Affinity Field (can help break powers like Bestow Power and Synchronicity)

Things that aren't as powerful as they seem: Metamind (actually has fewer PP than single-class psion, even after free manifesting and Font of Power), Psion Uncarnate (no real synergy with anything)
deadkoo
01-21-08, 08:38 AM if you going to allow players to use elan, remember that a PC only gets one free action per round... So, the elan can't use his special(+4 to saves or -2dam per PP spent) once per round. not every round.

Keep in mind psionic focus(as stated above). And (also stated above) keep the PCs away from metamind(unless gestalting or such).

Psions can be a LOT of fun, and even though at first they can seem to do a lot of damage at low lvls, the very low number of PP at first means that they don't have the lasting power of wizards or clerics.

If you find that the players are destroying everything you throw at them, don't boost the encounters, just use more encounters per day. Don't let them rest after everybattle.

ANd last, remmebr that the Wilder special(can't remember name) and Overchannel don't stack.

cheers
Jaxgaret
01-21-08, 09:33 AM a PC only gets one free action per round

Free Action

Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free.

Only the DM decides what the "reasonable limit" is on how many free actions you can take per turn.

You may have been thinking of Swift/Immediate actions, of which a PC only gets 1/round.
hogarth
01-21-08, 09:46 AM Psions can be a LOT of fun, and even though at first they can seem to do a lot of damage at low lvls, the very low number of PP at first means that they don't have the lasting power of wizards or clerics.
A psion has about as much lasting power as a (non-specialist) wizard. Consider a psion and a wizard with 16 Int.
Lvl 1:
-- Wizard has two level 1 spells.
-- Psion has three power points, enough for three unaugmented level 1 powers.

Lvl 2:
-- Wizard has three level 1 spells.
-- Psion has eight power points, enough for eight unaugmented level 1 powers or four augmented level 1 powers (or a combination of the two).

Lvl 3:
-- Wizard has three level 1 spells and two level 2 spells.
-- Psion has fifteen power points, enough for six unaugmented level 1 powers and three unaugmented level 2 powers (or many other combinations).

But the wizard has three big advantages over a psion.
1) Versatility: A psion only knows a small number of fixed powers, but a wizard can have many spells in his spellbook.
2) Choice: There are a huge number of spells in various splatbooks but only a limited number of psionic powers to choose from.
3) Power: In general, the best wizard spells are better than the best psion powers of the same level and they often scale up in power with caster level.

I generally agree with the other comments: as long as your not resting every battle, you should be fine. There are a few new save-or-"die" effects that you should be aware of (e.g. brain lock, ego whip, psionic charm [available sooner than charm monster]) and the DCs for energy missile/energy stun can get pumped pretty high (if you're not using the errata in Complete Psionic), but that's not game-breaking.
Krusk
01-21-08, 04:27 PM As for the complete psionic erratta.I just remember hearing about how when it came out it nerfed psionics hardly and in unneccessary places. If the general consensus now is that it is balanaced and not horrible, I would be open to using it. I honesly haven't had a chance to read over it much.

The campaign is starting in a week or two, so I'm just going to bookmark this thread and keep it handy.
CrimsonDeath
01-21-08, 04:31 PM The general consensus is that Complete Psionic isn't worth using unless you're confident that you can hand-pick through it, separate the wheat from the chaff, and only use the good stuff.
hogarth
01-21-08, 05:06 PM As for the complete psionic erratta.I just remember hearing about how when it came out it nerfed psionics hardly and in unneccessary places. If the general consensus now is that it is balanaced and not horrible, I would be open to using it. I honesly haven't had a chance to read over it much.
The one thing everyone can agree on is that the errata saying "only one Astral Construct can be manifested at a time" is really, really dumb. You might as well rip that page out of your copy right now. :)

The other nerfs I (personally) didn't mind, but other people are outraged by. I had already house-ruled that Conjuration (Creation) and Metacreativity effects like Evard's Black Tentacles or Crystal Shard don't automatically bypass DR, so that one didn't change my campaign. And I always thought it was silly that certain powers scaled up in DC so quickly, but other people don't have a problem with it. YMMV.
Krusk
01-23-08, 04:16 PM Quik question that dosn't merit a new thread. Negative leveles and psionics. What all do you loose per each negative level, or which page of which book can this be found?
CrimsonDeath
01-23-08, 05:27 PM According to the description of the Mindwipe power from page 121 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook, you lose knowledge of one power of the highest level you know and lose sufficient PP to manifest that power (in addition to the effects of a negative level on any character).

According to the sidebar on page 100 of Complete Psionic, you lose PP equal to your original ML and a -1 penalty to ML, but it doesn't mention any loss of powers known.

I'm not sure if we've received any clarifications on the matter.
Deekin
01-23-08, 05:28 PM Quik question that dosn't merit a new thread. Negative leveles and psionics. What all do you loose per each negative level, or which page of which book can this be found?

Page 68

Highest level power you can manifest, and a number of PP equal to its cost.
sijigs
01-23-08, 09:12 PM And whatever you do.. don't forget to have fun being on the 'dark side'. :D

(not sure why it's the 'dark side' for you.. but hopefully you'll mean that it's 'cool side' as a few of us think..)
Krusk
01-23-08, 09:29 PM And whatever you do.. don't forget to have fun being on the 'dark side'. :D

(not sure why it's the 'dark side' for you.. but hopefully you'll mean that it's 'cool side' as a few of us think..)

Generally it is not looked on as good thing, but something "dark" and wrong.

Just always felt like it was something you arent supposed to do, like that first underaged b*** you steal from your parents fridge while they are away on buisness and you and your 5 friends split it and get "totally trashed".

Your parents are the other gamers, and the b*** is psionics.

At least thats how it has always seemed when I talk in person to some of the other DM's I know.

b*** is because I'm not sure what I am and am not allowed to advocate without breaching the CoC.
sijigs
01-23-08, 09:57 PM Meh, I say.

Everyone is apprehensive of the unknown but if you do things right, your DM will get over it.

Again, have fun. :D
jbsaff
01-24-08, 02:11 AM Well, I for one say welcome to the Dark Side. We have psionic minor creation(cookies).

Probably doesn't work like that, but it sounded good at the time. You could get the ingredients, I think, and mix em up yourself.

Motivator time!

EDIT: Here's the result.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2400/2215516447_a1d3677054_o.jpg
CrimsonDeath
01-24-08, 03:12 AM Let's see... I'm pretty sure you can make peanut butter cookies out of nothing but peanuts, sugar, and margerine (which is just processed vegetable oil). So yeah, I think you can make cookies entirely out of vegetable matter, and the end result (cookies) is a uniform substance.
Eikre
01-24-08, 06:51 AM b*** is because I'm not sure what I am and am not allowed to advocate without breaching the CoC.

Okay, look. Seriously? Beer? Does anyone here find that to be offensive in any great capacity? We all realize that a 15-year-old human fighter is perfectly comfortable walking into a bar and experimenting with the pricing and intoxication mechanics that are printed in Wizards' books?

Tragically, I glazed over the asterisks when I first read your post and interprited the explitive as a five-letter B-word instead of a four-lettered one.

My first impression was that your metaphore involved an underaged girl who you'd stolen from your parents and subsequently "trashed" with the assistance of your five buddies, and though you evidentially found this to be succinct allegory, you thought that a mild expletive might have been just lewd enough to warrant a partial black-out... But not removal.

This is a somewhat terrifying interpretation, and my recount could have been prevented if you'd just stayed level and chose the path of clarity.

The moral of this hilarious story is thus: A gentleman means what he says, and says what he means. If you're going to pen some sketchy allegory, at least pay the audience the benefit of your full endorsement.
Krusk
01-24-08, 01:26 PM Sorry for the mix up elkie, I just don't want to get caught advocating anything horrible like underaged drinking on the boards and find out I broke he CoC.

Also, sweet cookies.
deadkoo
01-24-08, 03:44 PM A psion has about as much lasting power as a (non-specialist) wizard. Consider a psion and a wizard with 16 Int.
Lvl 1:
-- Wizard has two level 1 spells.
-- Psion has three power points, enough for three unaugmented level 1 powers.

Lvl 2:
-- Wizard has three level 1 spells.
-- Psion has eight power points, enough for eight unaugmented level 1 powers or four augmented level 1 powers (or a combination of the two).

Lvl 3:
-- Wizard has three level 1 spells and two level 2 spells.
-- Psion has fifteen power points, enough for six unaugmented level 1 powers and three unaugmented level 2 powers (or many other combinations).

right, except that wizards also get 0 lvl spells. Not the most powerful, but still handy and there.

Also, the main difference I have noticed between the 2 classes(at higher lvls that is) a wizard can do 10d6 damage and it just counts as a 3rd lvl spell slot. For a psion to do so, it is (for all intents and purposes) it takes a higher power "slot(based on PP that it costs. trying to compare apples and oranges).

Basically, wizards get a lot of their damaging spells pumped for free. Psions need to use more power to get it.

Personnaly, i like psions better however.
CrimsonDeath
01-24-08, 04:40 PM right, except that wizards also get 0 lvl spells. Not the most powerful, but still handy and there.

Also, the main difference I have noticed between the 2 classes(at higher lvls that is) a wizard can do 10d6 damage and it just counts as a 3rd lvl spell slot. For a psion to do so, it is (for all intents and purposes) it takes a higher power "slot(based on PP that it costs. trying to compare apples and oranges).

Basically, wizards get a lot of their damaging spells pumped for free. Psions need to use more power to get it.

Personnaly, i like psions better however.

Not that dropping a lot of d6s is the best way for either class to deal with a threat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Krusk 01-21-08, 01:37 AM	So with 4th edition looming, I decided I would finally give psionics a shot with the final campaign I ran. I have finally decided to re-open the expanded psionics handbook, and re-read it giving it another shot. It didn't look half bad. That said I have never run psionics, and want to know of any general advice people have. Things to watch out for. Common houserules. Common over powered combos. Common underpowered classes. Rules that are confusing. Erratta I should definatly read. ECT. There will be no arcane casting classes, and I generally run 2-3+ encounters a day. To watch for nova-ing. Most underpowered nonpsionic classes have homebrew stuff added to them to beef them up in power to around TOB classes, or down in power to TOB classes as needed. Players will have access to Expanded psionic handbook Players handbook PHB 2 Complete adventurer Complete warrior Complete scoundrel Complete champion Magic Item Compendium Tome of Battle And one player has complete psionic. but we will not be using the psionic nerfs presented in it, just prestige, base classes, and feats. (was warned on this one already) I am also thinking of limiting the races to Human Elf Dwarf Halfling Elan Dromite HAlf-Giant Both types of Gith Minead Xeph Again thanks a ton for any help, and I hope this runs smoothly.
Deekin 01-21-08, 01:40 AM	Did you read the Sticked threads at the top of the Forum? They have some useful links.
Krusk 01-21-08, 01:44 AM	Did you read the Sticked threads at the top of the Forum? They have some useful links. Like everyone else who is first time to a forum I totally forgot to do so. And will do that right now.
CrimsonDeath 01-21-08, 02:37 AM	#1 thing to remember: You can never spend more PP on a power than your Manifester Level. This is why a Psion can't throw a 7d10 Mind Thrust at level 1; the best he can do is 2d10 if he uses Overchannel (which hurts him). #2 thing to remember: You have only one Psionic Focus. That means you can only apply one metapsionic feat to a power, and you can't use (for example) Psionic Weapon and Deep Impact on the same attack. The only way to overcome this limitation is by spending two feats on Psicrystal Affinity and Psicrystal Containment (in addition to whatever feats you're taking to expend your focus on), and that's still only two focuses to expend at once (or one to expend and one to maintain). Confusing powers: Metaconcert Powers to watch out for: Bestow Power (can fuel PP recharge for a Wilder), Synchronicity (by some readings can grant extra actions), Affinity Field (can help break powers like Bestow Power and Synchronicity) Things that aren't as powerful as they seem: Metamind (actually has fewer PP than single-class psion, even after free manifesting and Font of Power), Psion Uncarnate (no real synergy with anything)
deadkoo 01-21-08, 08:38 AM	if you going to allow players to use elan, remember that a PC only gets one free action per round... So, the elan can't use his special(+4 to saves or -2dam per PP spent) once per round. not every round. Keep in mind psionic focus(as stated above). And (also stated above) keep the PCs away from metamind(unless gestalting or such). Psions can be a LOT of fun, and even though at first they can seem to do a lot of damage at low lvls, the very low number of PP at first means that they don't have the lasting power of wizards or clerics. If you find that the players are destroying everything you throw at them, don't boost the encounters, just use more encounters per day. Don't let them rest after everybattle. ANd last, remmebr that the Wilder special(can't remember name) and Overchannel don't stack. cheers
Jaxgaret 01-21-08, 09:33 AM	a PC only gets one free action per round Free Action Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free. Only the DM decides what the "reasonable limit" is on how many free actions you can take per turn. You may have been thinking of Swift/Immediate actions, of which a PC only gets 1/round.
hogarth 01-21-08, 09:46 AM	Psions can be a LOT of fun, and even though at first they can seem to do a lot of damage at low lvls, the very low number of PP at first means that they don't have the lasting power of wizards or clerics. A psion has about as much lasting power as a (non-specialist) wizard. Consider a psion and a wizard with 16 Int. Lvl 1: -- Wizard has two level 1 spells. -- Psion has three power points, enough for three unaugmented level 1 powers. Lvl 2: -- Wizard has three level 1 spells. -- Psion has eight power points, enough for eight unaugmented level 1 powers or four augmented level 1 powers (or a combination of the two). Lvl 3: -- Wizard has three level 1 spells and two level 2 spells. -- Psion has fifteen power points, enough for six unaugmented level 1 powers and three unaugmented level 2 powers (or many other combinations). But the wizard has three big advantages over a psion. 1) Versatility: A psion only knows a small number of fixed powers, but a wizard can have many spells in his spellbook. 2) Choice: There are a huge number of spells in various splatbooks but only a limited number of psionic powers to choose from. 3) Power: In general, the best wizard spells are better than the best psion powers of the same level and they often scale up in power with caster level. I generally agree with the other comments: as long as your not resting every battle, you should be fine. There are a few new save-or-"die" effects that you should be aware of (e.g. brain lock, ego whip, psionic charm [available sooner than charm monster]) and the DCs for energy missile/energy stun can get pumped pretty high (if you're not using the errata in Complete Psionic), but that's not game-breaking.
Krusk 01-21-08, 04:27 PM	As for the complete psionic erratta.I just remember hearing about how when it came out it nerfed psionics hardly and in unneccessary places. If the general consensus now is that it is balanaced and not horrible, I would be open to using it. I honesly haven't had a chance to read over it much. The campaign is starting in a week or two, so I'm just going to bookmark this thread and keep it handy.
CrimsonDeath 01-21-08, 04:31 PM	The general consensus is that Complete Psionic isn't worth using unless you're confident that you can hand-pick through it, separate the wheat from the chaff, and only use the good stuff.
hogarth 01-21-08, 05:06 PM	As for the complete psionic erratta.I just remember hearing about how when it came out it nerfed psionics hardly and in unneccessary places. If the general consensus now is that it is balanaced and not horrible, I would be open to using it. I honesly haven't had a chance to read over it much. The one thing everyone can agree on is that the errata saying "only one Astral Construct can be manifested at a time" is really, really dumb. You might as well rip that page out of your copy right now. :) The other nerfs I (personally) didn't mind, but other people are outraged by. I had already house-ruled that Conjuration (Creation) and Metacreativity effects like Evard's Black Tentacles or Crystal Shard don't automatically bypass DR, so that one didn't change my campaign. And I always thought it was silly that certain powers scaled up in DC so quickly, but other people don't have a problem with it. YMMV.
Krusk 01-23-08, 04:16 PM	Quik question that dosn't merit a new thread. Negative leveles and psionics. What all do you loose per each negative level, or which page of which book can this be found?
CrimsonDeath 01-23-08, 05:27 PM	According to the description of the Mindwipe power from page 121 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook, you lose knowledge of one power of the highest level you know and lose sufficient PP to manifest that power (in addition to the effects of a negative level on any character). According to the sidebar on page 100 of Complete Psionic, you lose PP equal to your original ML and a -1 penalty to ML, but it doesn't mention any loss of powers known. I'm not sure if we've received any clarifications on the matter.
Deekin 01-23-08, 05:28 PM	Quik question that dosn't merit a new thread. Negative leveles and psionics. What all do you loose per each negative level, or which page of which book can this be found? Page 68 Highest level power you can manifest, and a number of PP equal to its cost.
sijigs 01-23-08, 09:12 PM	And whatever you do.. don't forget to have fun being on the 'dark side'. :D (not sure why it's the 'dark side' for you.. but hopefully you'll mean that it's 'cool side' as a few of us think..)
Krusk 01-23-08, 09:29 PM	And whatever you do.. don't forget to have fun being on the 'dark side'. :D (not sure why it's the 'dark side' for you.. but hopefully you'll mean that it's 'cool side' as a few of us think..) Generally it is not looked on as good thing, but something "dark" and wrong. Just always felt like it was something you arent supposed to do, like that first underaged b* you steal from your parents fridge while they are away on buisness and you and your 5 friends split it and get "totally trashed". Your parents are the other gamers, and the b* is psionics. At least thats how it has always seemed when I talk in person to some of the other DM's I know. b*** is because I'm not sure what I am and am not allowed to advocate without breaching the CoC.
sijigs 01-23-08, 09:57 PM	Meh, I say. Everyone is apprehensive of the unknown but if you do things right, your DM will get over it. Again, have fun. :D
jbsaff 01-24-08, 02:11 AM	Well, I for one say welcome to the Dark Side. We have psionic minor creation(cookies). Probably doesn't work like that, but it sounded good at the time. You could get the ingredients, I think, and mix em up yourself. Motivator time! EDIT: Here's the result. http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2400/2215516447_a1d3677054_o.jpg
CrimsonDeath 01-24-08, 03:12 AM	Let's see... I'm pretty sure you can make peanut butter cookies out of nothing but peanuts, sugar, and margerine (which is just processed vegetable oil). So yeah, I think you can make cookies entirely out of vegetable matter, and the end result (cookies) is a uniform substance.
Eikre 01-24-08, 06:51 AM	b*** is because I'm not sure what I am and am not allowed to advocate without breaching the CoC. Okay, look. Seriously? Beer? Does anyone here find that to be offensive in any great capacity? We all realize that a 15-year-old human fighter is perfectly comfortable walking into a bar and experimenting with the pricing and intoxication mechanics that are printed in Wizards' books? Tragically, I glazed over the asterisks when I first read your post and interprited the explitive as a five-letter B-word instead of a four-lettered one. My first impression was that your metaphore involved an underaged girl who you'd stolen from your parents and subsequently "trashed" with the assistance of your five buddies, and though you evidentially found this to be succinct allegory, you thought that a mild expletive might have been just lewd enough to warrant a partial black-out... But not removal. This is a somewhat terrifying interpretation, and my recount could have been prevented if you'd just stayed level and chose the path of clarity. The moral of this hilarious story is thus: A gentleman means what he says, and says what he means. If you're going to pen some sketchy allegory, at least pay the audience the benefit of your full endorsement.
Krusk 01-24-08, 01:26 PM	Sorry for the mix up elkie, I just don't want to get caught advocating anything horrible like underaged drinking on the boards and find out I broke he CoC. Also, sweet cookies.
deadkoo 01-24-08, 03:44 PM	A psion has about as much lasting power as a (non-specialist) wizard. Consider a psion and a wizard with 16 Int. Lvl 1: -- Wizard has two level 1 spells. -- Psion has three power points, enough for three unaugmented level 1 powers. Lvl 2: -- Wizard has three level 1 spells. -- Psion has eight power points, enough for eight unaugmented level 1 powers or four augmented level 1 powers (or a combination of the two). Lvl 3: -- Wizard has three level 1 spells and two level 2 spells. -- Psion has fifteen power points, enough for six unaugmented level 1 powers and three unaugmented level 2 powers (or many other combinations). right, except that wizards also get 0 lvl spells. Not the most powerful, but still handy and there. Also, the main difference I have noticed between the 2 classes(at higher lvls that is) a wizard can do 10d6 damage and it just counts as a 3rd lvl spell slot. For a psion to do so, it is (for all intents and purposes) it takes a higher power "slot(based on PP that it costs. trying to compare apples and oranges). Basically, wizards get a lot of their damaging spells pumped for free. Psions need to use more power to get it. Personnaly, i like psions better however.
CrimsonDeath 01-24-08, 04:40 PM	right, except that wizards also get 0 lvl spells. Not the most powerful, but still handy and there. Also, the main difference I have noticed between the 2 classes(at higher lvls that is) a wizard can do 10d6 damage and it just counts as a 3rd lvl spell slot. For a psion to do so, it is (for all intents and purposes) it takes a higher power "slot(based on PP that it costs. trying to compare apples and oranges). Basically, wizards get a lot of their damaging spells pumped for free. Psions need to use more power to get it. Personnaly, i like psions better however. Not that dropping a lot of d6s is the best way for either class to deal with a threat.