Post/Author/DateTime	Post
archerpwr 12-02-07, 08:22 PM	So, I've never played a psion before and I'd like to have some people look over my psion to see if I'm making any stupid mistakes. The character sheet can be found here (http://rustmonster.net/sheet/?view=fd973fe2411422a15e6e9cdbfb9d1487). For convenience, I'll list my feats and powers here. For the record, complete psionics doesn't exist for the purpose of this character. Untapped is out of the question as well. The party is heavy on melee, so I'm basically filling the cleric role with some battlefield control. Anyway, here is the stuff I'd like you to check over: Egoist 9 1) Psicrystal Affinity [Psionic], Overchannel [Psionic] 3) Extend Power [Metapsionic] 5) Expanded Knowledge(Control Air) [Psionic] 6) Expanded Knowledge(Astal Constuct) [Psionic] 9) Metamorphic Transfer Powers 1) Entangling Ectoplasm, Control Flame, Crystal Shard, Defensive Precognition, Vigor, Astral ConstuctEK 2) Control Sound, Empathic Transfer, Ego Whip, Share Pain, Control AirEK 3) Ectoplasmic Form, Hustle, Time Hop, Solicit Psicrystal, touchsight 4) Metamorphosis, Psychic Reformation, Intellect Fortress, Wall of Ectoplasm 5) Revivify The campaign takes place in underdark and trapfinding and melee are covered more than once, so I was convinced against EK(astral construct) Critiques?
Deekin 12-02-07, 09:59 PM	Take EK Energy Missle instead of control air. Drop Restore extremity after making some power stones, and grab another power , like power resistance or Planeshift or, True seeing.
Artector 12-02-07, 10:37 PM	EK(Control Air) isn't worth it. (90% of the time) Chances are Restore Extremity isn't worth it either. (As mentioned) And True Seeing is highly suggested. Watch out when using Overchannel. Otherwise I don't see to many problems. Just don't go overboard with using PP or you'll run out really quick.
hogarth 12-02-07, 11:02 PM	Your campaign must have a lot of severed arms and legs before Restore Extremity comes in handy! My suggestions: A different EK instead of Control Air (Clairvoyant Sense, Dimension Swap, Energy Missile, whatever). Energy Wall instead of Ectoplasmic Form (can stop most ranged attacks just as well as Control Air can). Psionic True Seeing instead of Restore Extremity. Metamorphic Transfer!!! (Drop one of the metapsionic feats.)
RadicalTaoist 12-02-07, 11:12 PM	Take a look at the effects of hurricane force winds. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#winds) Take a look at the wind speed changes available to Control Air. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlAir.htm) Note that you can get hurricane force winds by level 6 through stacking two Control Airs, thanks to Solicit Psicrystal. Now, what was that about Control Air being useless again?
hovnarr 12-03-07, 03:42 AM	Also, the lack of an area damage effect makes control air needed for handling swarms. Body Adjustment is a 3rd level power for psions which makes it kinda sucky. It's been debated if EK:ing it as a 2nd level power is worth it. If you have divine casters on the team, I'd say no. In combat, your prefered method of "healing" is to manifest vigor. Actual hps can get healed after combat. Dispel Psionics? Dispel effects are very good on "spontaneous casters" because you can just repeat it if it fails. Also, if you go with the Solicit Psicrystal investment, consider Control Sound to automatically negate anything with Verbal components, and Telekinetic Maneuver since, well, you need a [force] effect anyway and this is the best thing since sliced bread. EDIT: Forgot about Metamorphic Transfer. Why on earth is it not on your list? It's better than anything else that is available.
hogarth 12-03-07, 07:32 AM	Take a look at the wind speed changes available to Control Air. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlAir.htm) Note that you can get hurricane force winds by level 6 through stacking two Control Airs, thanks to Solicit Psicrystal. Now, what was that about Control Air being useless again? Wow! I'm surprised people don't stack the same effect from the same source more often. It's not like there's a rule against it, right? ;)
RadicalTaoist 12-03-07, 10:35 AM	Wow! I'm surprised people don't stack the same effect from the same source more often. It's not like there's a rule against it, right? ;) Stacking In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). Emphasis mine. Wind speed doesn't do any dice rolling, I believe. Forgot to mention that this is all no save or SR too. EDIT: Checking the multiple effects section of both magic and psionics overviews, and these all refer to bonuses to rolls or attributes applied to a creature.
hogarth 12-03-07, 12:51 PM	EDIT: Checking the multiple effects section of both magic and psionics overviews, and these all refer to bonuses to rolls or attributes applied to a creature. Well, except for this one: Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.
RadicalTaoist 12-03-07, 02:44 PM	Hmmm. So does that mean multiple Energy Walls in the same place don't stack? I'd have to look at things; I may have been using a lot of spells wrong. There's also the troublesome implication of "but at different strengths" which could have the funny yet valid rules reading of two effects of the same strength stacking. EDIT: Even without stacking, you can achieve windstorm speeds by ML 8. That's a no SR Fort DC 18 to keep from being knocked prone (if they're Medium size) effect that also neutralizes any ranged attack that isn't a spell or siege weapon.
Artector 12-03-07, 03:53 PM	EDIT: Even without stacking, you can achieve windstorm speeds by ML 8. That's a no SR Fort DC 18 to keep from being knocked prone (if they're Medium size) effect that also neutralizes any ranged attack that isn't a spell or siege weapon. Nice. In theory. Since everyone in the area has to make a Fort save to keep from falling down what the tanks going to do? They can't go up and stab the enemy, they'll get knocked down, and they can't shoot them with arrows. It can have its uses, but it also effects the party greatly, as well as the enemies.
archerpwr 12-03-07, 03:57 PM	Take EK Energy Missle instead of control air. Drop Restore extremity after making some power stones, and grab another power , like power resistance or Planeshift or, True seeing. Trust me. Blasting is not needed. There is a warmage in the group to cover area blasting. Crystal shard is there to deal with high sr drow casters (hooray for readied actions and concentration checks!). As for restore extremety, take a look at the houserules (http://www.lands-beyond-reality.com/dnd/house-rules.php). One of the players is in some serious damage right now. Also, the lack of an area damage effect makes control air needed for handling swarms. Body Adjustment is a 3rd level power for psions which makes it kinda sucky. It's been debated if EK:ing it as a 2nd level power is worth it. If you have divine casters on the team, I'd say no. In combat, your prefered method of "healing" is to manifest vigor. Actual hps can get healed after combat. Dispel Psionics? Dispel effects are very good on "spontaneous casters" because you can just repeat it if it fails. Also, if you go with the Solicit Psicrystal investment, consider Control Sound to automatically negate anything with Verbal components, and Telekinetic Maneuver since, well, you need a [force] effect anyway and this is the best thing since sliced bread. EDIT: Forgot about Metamorphic Transfer. Why on earth is it not on your list? It's better than anything else that is available. Body adjustment is a power I'm heavily considering dropping. Should I trade extend power for metamorphic transfer? Can control sound actually stop verbal componants? That might be worth defensive precognition. TM looks really nice, but I'm not sure if it's worth any of my level 4 powers. Edit: I've updated the egoist a bit.
hovnarr 12-03-07, 04:25 PM	Should I trade extend power for metamorphic transfer? Extend Power + Overchannel is needed at level 11 to extend Temporal Acceleration - if not before. If your DM allows the Research option, there are EK feats to be saved. Otherwise I'd probably drop Empower Power. If you really need blasting, take a look at the cryo/pyrohydra form and Metamorphic Transfer. ML 12 caps it out at 36d6 damage jets. It's "too" good though, so I mainly use MT for long lasting Invisibility and fly 60 (good) from Pixie. Can control sound actually stop verbal componants? Can Silence? Compared to Silence, Control Sound trades duration concentration for no save, much like if you had cast Silence at a point in space (but then the offending caster can move away). Anyway, a readied Silence is an auto counter against Verbal component spells, as is Control Sound. Unless your DM vetos for some reason. The fact that you need to ready an action still makes you vulnerable to turn 0-1 effects though. TM looks really nice, but I'm not sure if it's worth any of my level 4 powers. Psychic Reformation does not need to be among your powers known, the fact that it is on your class list suffices. You can have a power stone of it if really needed, but otherwise just grab it momentarily as you level up, reform what you need, and replace it with something more useful until your next level up. At higher levels (around where you're at right now) I try to have a psionic cohort locked up somewhere so I can plane shift/teleport to him and use him as a databank of powers (see Manifesting from Another's Powers Known) for stuff like this, identify, Contingency - stuff you want but don't really need at one round's notice.
hogarth 12-03-07, 04:31 PM	Ah...the penny drops on Restore Extremity. :) As is said above, Metamorphic Transfer is good for Greater Invisilbility (pixie or phantom fungus), flight (various), Freedom of Movement (spider eater), and various other things (the more Monster Manuals you have at your disposal, the better!).
archerpwr 12-03-07, 04:42 PM	Can Silence? Compared to Silence, Control Sound trades duration concentration for no save, much like if you had cast Silence at a point in space (but then the offending caster can move away). Anyway, a readied Silence is an auto counter against Verbal component spells, as is Control Sound. Unless your DM vetos for some reason. The fact that you need to ready an action still makes you vulnerable to turn 0-1 effects though. Psychic Reformation does not need to be among your powers known, the fact that it is on your class list suffices. You can have a power stone of it if really needed, but otherwise just grab it momentarily as you level up, reform what you need, and replace it with something more useful until your next level up. At higher levels (around where you're at right now) I try to have a psionic cohort locked up somewhere so I can plane shift/teleport to him and use him as a databank of powers (see Manifesting from Another's Powers Known) for stuff like this, identify, Contingency - stuff you want but don't really need at one round's notice. Great point. I'll drop PR for TM Ah...the penny drops on Restore Extremity. :) As is said above, Metamorphic Transfer is good for Greater Invisilbility (pixie or phantom fungus), flight (various), Freedom of Movement (spider eater), and various other things (the more Monster Manuals you have at your disposal, the better!). I've added in MT.
PurpleRain 12-03-07, 04:48 PM	Here is my advice to you, lose two psionic powers. You can only have 19 at level 9. As for which powers to take, get the ones you like the best. Remember it is your character so don't let a message board dictate your roleplaying to you.
archerpwr 12-03-07, 04:55 PM	Here is my advice to you, lose two psionic powers. You can only have 19 at level 9. As for which powers to take, get the ones you like the best. Remember it is your character so don't let a message board dictate your roleplaying to you. 5 level 1 4 level 2 +1 EK 4 level 3 4 level 4 2 level 5 Where am I off? As for RP, I'm well aware of that. I haven't touched any powers/feats that were central to the PC. I've just changed things that would increase survivability/usefulness.
PurpleRain 12-03-07, 05:19 PM	Powers 1) Entangling Ectoplasm, Control Flame, Crystal Shard, Precognition, Defensive, Vigor (A total of 6) 2) Feat Leech, Empathic Transfer, Ego Whip, Share Pain, Control Air (A total of 5) 3) Ectoplasmic Form, Hustle, Time Hop, Solicit Psicrystal (A total of 4) 4) Metamorphosis, Telekinetic Maneuver, Intellect Fortress, Wall of Ectoplasm (A total of 4) 5) Revivify, Restore Extremity (A total of 2) 2+4+4+5+6= 21 powers I had to triple check to be sure.
archerpwr 12-03-07, 05:38 PM	Powers 1) Entangling Ectoplasm, Control Flame, Crystal Shard, Precognition, Defensive Defensive Precognition, Vigor (A total of 6 5) 2) Feat Leech, Empathic Transfer, Ego Whip, Share Pain, Control AirBonus, EK (A total of 5 4 +1 bonus) 3) Ectoplasmic Form, Hustle, Time Hop, Solicit Psicrystal (A total of 4) 4) Metamorphosis, Telekinetic Maneuver, Intellect Fortress, Wall of Ectoplasm (A total of 4) 5) Revivify, Restore Extremity (A total of 2) 2+4+4+5+6= 21 powers I had to triple check to be sure. Let me make that more readable.
Artector 12-03-07, 05:40 PM	Powers 1) Entangling Ectoplasm, Control Flame, Crystal Shard, Precognition, Defensive, Vigor (A total of 6) 2) Feat Leech, Empathic Transfer, Ego Whip, Share Pain, Control Air (A total of 5) 3) Ectoplasmic Form, Hustle, Time Hop, Solicit Psicrystal (A total of 4) 4) Metamorphosis, Telekinetic Maneuver, Intellect Fortress, Wall of Ectoplasm (A total of 4) 5) Revivify, Restore Extremity (A total of 2) 2+4+4+5+6= 21 powers I had to triple check to be sure. You are miscounting the 1st level powers, he has "Precognition, Defensive", not Precognition and Defensive. A 9th level psion has 19 powers known, and he's taken Expanded Knowledge to learn another, for 20 total powers known. Edit~Ninja'd!
archerpwr 12-03-07, 09:27 PM	You are miscounting the 1st level powers, he has "Precognition, Defensive", not Precognition and Defensive. A 9th level psion has 19 powers known, and he's taken Expanded Knowledge to learn another, for 20 total powers known. Edit~Ninja'd! Damn right ninja'd. So, are the feats and powers looking right now?
hovnarr 12-04-07, 11:41 AM	Why Restore Extremity again? If you ever encounter darkness, invisibility, mirror image etc. True Seeing >> Restore Extremity. How often does a character really loose a limb? Rarely enough for you to at least wait to level 10 to pick it up. Plane Shift also needs picking unless you can somehow grab it through Metamorphic Transfer (typically, only outsider forms has it). Dimension Door wouldn't be bad either but yeah, you're hard pressed for 4th level powers already and there's always Blink Dog or the previously mentioned spider for Freedom of Movement if you're grappled.
Lycanthromancer 12-04-07, 11:46 AM	If you want versatility and the ability to adapt as the situation requires, keep psychic reformation, and use it with psionic contingency. Just think about that for a minute. Also, drop feat leech unless you know you're going to have other psionic characters around whose feats you wish to 'borrow.' Otherwise, it's useless. Psionic revivify might be better off on a power stone with enough XP set aside for 5 rounds or so of usage (unless you plan on having party members die. A lot.). Hmm. I notice that your psicrystal has metapsionic feats. These are useless, as your psicrystal cannot use them. Instead, go for regular psionic feats, or monstrous feats (such as Flyby Attack). If you can find some way for your psicrystal to gain incarnum feats (such as a modified version of Undead Meldshaper, which allows you to use your Wis score instead of Con for meldshaping). Incarnum-type feats would be so awesome, especially if you used metamorphosis on your psicrystal to turn it into an uber-tank/all-purpose tool. Shape Soulmeld, anyone? Also...astral construct is far more than just a tank/trapfinder power. This puppy can be anything from a can-opener to a poison-delivery system; if you need to fly for a few rounds, a Small- or Medium-sized construct is both cheaper than a manifestation of metamorphosis, and can have other uses as well. Manifest a few constructs, and have them use Aid Another on the party's fighter if he's being grappled. This power is tied with psionic minor creation and metamorphosis for the most versatile ability in the entire game. Get it. Please. Use your imagination and you'll be glad you did. Control flames might be useful, case depending. What kinds of things were you wanting to use it for? There are other powers that are more interesting/useful, such as skate (for towing around adamantine doors) or synesthete (for allowing you to see when blinded - you can't see as a destrachan, for example - or for avoiding gaze attacks). Try expending some XP and researching another 1st level power from someone else's list. :)
hovnarr 12-04-07, 11:50 AM	He's 9th lvl Lycan, Contingency is not on the menu yet. Personally, I swear by Temporal Acceleration in Contingency, but Reformation has its merit.
Lycanthromancer 12-04-07, 12:01 PM	He's 9th lvl Lycan, Contingency is not on the menu yet. Personally, I swear by Temporal Acceleration in Contingency, but Reformation has its merit.Oops. Sorry. Wasn't paying attention. Also, see my previous edit.
CrimsonDeath 12-04-07, 12:55 PM	Why Restore Extremity again? If you ever encounter darkness, invisibility, mirror image etc. True Seeing >> Restore Extremity. How often does a character really loose a limb? Rarely enough for you to at least wait to level 10 to pick it up. Because the campaign is using variant Massive Damage rules. If you take 50 damage in one shot, you make a Fort save or lose a limb (or organ).
Lycanthromancer 12-04-07, 02:18 PM	Because the campaign is using variant Massive Damage rules. If you take 50 damage in one shot, you make a Fort save or lose a limb (or organ).Ouch. Wouldn't this be better in a power stone anyway? Or perhaps a (partly used) dorje?
PhaedrusXY 12-04-07, 02:45 PM	Because the campaign is using variant Massive Damage rules. If you take 50 damage in one shot, you make a Fort save or lose a limb (or organ).I think it would still be unlikely to occur frequently enough to pick it as a power known. I agree that getting a used dorje or a few power stones is the way to go. You're always one Psychic Reformation away from learning the power, taking Imprint Power Stone, and making more, anyway. I'd make the same argument about Psionic Revivify. I'd also talk to the DM about letting you pay the XP cost yourself when manifesting it from a power stone. I think all powers and spells with variable material and/or XP costs should be handled like this in magic items. It is just easier to deal with, as the recent thread on using Wands of Animate Dead pointed out on the CO board. I would guess that he gave his psicrystal all the metapsionic feats specifically so he could use them with Feat Leech.
Lycanthromancer 12-04-07, 02:54 PM	I guess that would be an okay use of feat leach, though I'd rather give the psicrystal a few more useful abilities of its own, really. Very clever, however.
archerpwr 12-04-07, 03:32 PM	Why Restore Extremity again? If you ever encounter darkness, invisibility, mirror image etc. True Seeing >> Restore Extremity. How often does a character really loose a limb? Rarely enough for you to at least wait to level 10 to pick it up. Plane Shift also needs picking unless you can somehow grab it through Metamorphic Transfer (typically, only outsider forms has it). Dimension Door wouldn't be bad either but yeah, you're hard pressed for 4th level powers already and there's always Blink Dog or the previously mentioned spider for Freedom of Movement if you're grappled. Well, from what I know the campaign takes place entirely in underdark. I won't be plane hopping about. True seeing is something I'll think about next level. Right now, Revivify and Restore Extremity are what are letting a psion rather than a cleric be considered. A dorje with 10 charges of restore extremity could be rather expensive at 6,750 gp. The ultimate magus should be able to cover mobility. I think it would still be unlikely to occur frequently enough to pick it as a power known. I agree that getting a used dorje or a few power stones is the way to go. You're always one Psychic Reformation away from learning the power, taking Imprint Power Stone, and making more, anyway. I'd make the same argument about Psionic Revivify. I'd also talk to the DM about letting you pay the XP cost yourself when manifesting it from a power stone. I think all powers and spells with variable material and/or XP costs should be handled like this in magic items. It is just easier to deal with, as the recent thread on using Wands of Animate Dead pointed out on the CO board. I would guess that he gave his psicrystal all the metapsionic feats specifically so he could use them with Feat Leech. Psionic revivify has to be cast so soon that it is pretty much required to be a power known. How about: trade TM for Psychic Reformation Drop ring of protection +1, amulet of con +2, and one healing belt (total 6750 gp) for a dorje of Restore Extremity with 10 charges.
Lycanthromancer 12-04-07, 03:47 PM	You can always make more later, so you could easily have fewer charges (say, 5). And a power stone/dorje of psionic revivify could be pulled out with a move action from a Heward's Handy Haversack, which is easily doable when you have hustle available. I'd say stock up on various low-charge dorjes and power stones of low-level powers, using your powers-known for things you'll use ALL THE TIME. Things you'll likely use only 3 or 4 times in your entire career (or even once a week or so) aren't worth having as powers known. Of course, if you need to have lots of durability, you could always get 50 sling-stones of manifesting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#manifesterWeapon). A tad on the expensive side, but you'll have 'virtual power stones' all the time, and you'll never want for power points again. Especially useful if you have some sort of storage device (such as gloves of storing) to keep them out of enemy hands. :) Item creation feats for the win!
archerpwr 12-04-07, 03:52 PM	You can always make more later, so you could easily have fewer charges (say, 5). And a power stone/dorje of psionic revivify could be pulled out with a move action from a Heward's Handy Haversack, which is easily doable when you have hustle available. I think 10 is a good number for now. I'm not sure how common shopping is. I'd say stock up on various low-charge dorjes and power stones of low-level powers, using your powers-known for things you'll use ALL THE TIME. Things you'll likely use only 3 or 4 times in your entire career (or even once a week or so) aren't worth having as powers known. Of course, if you need to have lots of durability, you could always get 50 sling-stones of manifesting. A tad on the expensive side, but you'll have 'virtual power stones' all the time, and you'll never want for power points again. Especially useful if you have some sort of storage device (such as gloves of storing) to keep them out of enemy hands. Item creation feats for the win! Manifester makes me think of spell storing hypodermic needles. I'll pass on that. Since I'm not getting a no on my ideas, I'll implement them and update the character.
Suspect_Unusual 12-04-07, 04:38 PM	Lycan: Of course, if you need to have lots of durability, you could always get 50 sling-stones of manifesting. A tad on the expensive side, but you'll have 'virtual power stones' all the time, and you'll never want for power points again. Especially useful if you have some sort of storage device (such as gloves of storing) to keep them out of enemy hands. Item creation feats for the win! That is absolutely brilliant!
Lycanthromancer 12-05-07, 11:15 AM	Not my idea. I got it from another poster, but yes, it IS brilliant. Cheap and cheesy, but brilliant.
InkBlot 12-05-07, 01:17 PM	Of course, if you need to have lots of durability, you could always get 50 sling-stones of manifesting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#manifesterWeapon). A tad on the expensive side, but you'll have 'virtual power stones' all the time, and you'll never want for power points again. Just keep in mind that you can not combine power points from multiple sources. A manifester weapon can never be used to manifest 4th level or higher power, and can never be used to augment a 3rd level power. You can use the manifester sling stones to recharge your own power point reserve using bestow power, if your DM lets you target yourself with bestow power. You can only get two power points out of every sling stone this way, and each stone is left with just two power points (one point goes poof in the transfer), so it's not the most efficient method. But it does let you use those power points on something better than an unaugmented 3rd level power.
archerpwr 12-05-07, 03:19 PM	I conferred with the DM about psicrystals, and he said they get familiar rules. No feats beyond alertness, and use my BAB. I dropped feat leach and tweaked my feats and powers a little bit. Does it look good?
Lycanthromancer 12-05-07, 03:29 PM	I'm not seeing any gaping holes in there, and I'm sure you've realized this already, but... ...remember for many AoE powers (especially intellect fortress), you can get a larger area if you keep your psicrystal 5 ft away from you, and you share powers with it. You can cover an even larger area in this way than the power states (though they do overlap, which of course does nothing spectacular). Just a thought. [edit] By the way, what race did you decide to go with?
archerpwr 12-05-07, 03:59 PM	I'm not seeing any gaping holes in there, and I'm sure you've realized this already, but... ...remember for many AoE powers (especially intellect fortress), you can get a larger area if you keep your psicrystal 5 ft away from you, and you share powers with it. You can cover an even larger area in this way than the power states (though they do overlap, which of course does nothing spectacular). Just a thought. [edit] By the way, what race did you decide to go with? Ooh. That's a good idea. Thank's for telling me that. The race is: Dragonborn(Mind aspect) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) Deep imaskari (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003b). Thanks for the help.
PhaedrusXY 12-05-07, 04:16 PM	You might consider Touchsight instead of True Seeing. Each has its advantages.
archerpwr 12-05-07, 07:20 PM	You might consider Touchsight instead of True Seeing. Each has its advantages. Hmm. That is quite good. A very viable alternative. Which level 3 power would you drop for it, and what level 5 power would you advise me to pick back up? I've seen that I don't need restore extremity as a power known, so would I just have revivify as a level 5 power and use my extra power known on touchsight? Touchsight could actually better than trueseeing. Comparison: Duration: same on both Target: both personal Range of vision for 9pp: 80' surround, but requires LoE, or 120' cone. I'm seeing it as a very viable alternative. At this point, I'm pretty convinced to only have one level 5 power.
PhaedrusXY 12-06-07, 01:49 AM	I'm not that crazy about most of the 5th level powers, but there are alot of very good 4th level ones. I'd be tempted to take one of them instead of True Seeing.
Acksiom 12-06-07, 03:35 AM	If Complete Psionic didn't exist for the purposes of my character, and I was interested in battlefield control, I'd definitely be taking Astral Construct or Telekinetic Maneuver, and possibly both, in that order. Even with the 1-at-a-time limitation, Astral Construct remains one of the signature multiuse powers that makes psionics so creatively fun, and without that limitation, well, it just gets even more so. Much better than Control Air, and by taking Boost Construct instead of the EK needed for that, your can give your snot monsters an additional ability from any list available to them. In your case that tops out at a Large 68 HP 23 AC beastie with two +13 1d8+9 slams and 1+1 B-level extra abilities or 1 B + 2 A's, and possibly 2+2 A's depending upon your DM's interpretation. And under a No Complete Psionics rule, I'd also be working the Manifest from Another Source (Power Stones) 'sploit like a feminist with a government grant.
hovnarr 12-06-07, 04:56 AM	I lament the lack of good 5th level poors too. Yet another reason to play an Egoist, since they have 5th level effects that actually has a chance to add something useful to their psionic repertoire. Though I find putting a 4th level power in a 5th level slot to be aesthetically displeasing. Touchsight or True Seeing is a tough choice. The fact that it's not clear which one's better - a level 3 power or a level 5 power - gives the advantage to Touchsight of course. Unless there were so few good 5th level powers to take... I like Plane Shift + Adapt Body: Travel to any plane and survive there. If you can't really do that very often in your campaign though, these two powers are of little use.
archerpwr 12-06-07, 06:30 PM	If Complete Psionic didn't exist for the purposes of my character, and I was interested in battlefield control, I'd definitely be taking Astral Construct or Telekinetic Maneuver, and possibly both, in that order. Even with the 1-at-a-time limitation, Astral Construct remains one of the signature multiuse powers that makes psionics so creatively fun, and without that limitation, well, it just gets even more so. Much better than Control Air, and by taking Boost Construct instead of the EK needed for that, your can give your snot monsters an additional ability from any list available to them. In your case that tops out at a Large 68 HP 23 AC beastie with two +13 1d8+9 slams and 1+1 B-level extra abilities or 1 B + 2 A's, and possibly 2+2 A's depending upon your DM's interpretation. And under a No Complete Psionics rule, I'd also be working the Manifest from Another Source (Power Stones) 'sploit like a feminist with a government grant. The party is *very* heavy on melee. I originally had it in, but RT convinced me that control winds was better for the party (battlefield controle > another tank). I'll need heavy logic to go against RT's advice (who actually happens to be in the campaign right now). IMHO, TM isn't needed either. Most of what it does could be done by one of the current PCs. @hovnarr: I really don't expect to be doing any plane hopping. Plane shift was heavily considered. I may grab it anyways next level.
hovnarr 12-06-07, 07:49 PM	IMHO, TM isn't needed either. Most of what it does could be done by one of the current PCs. The effect isn't really important - the fact that it's [force] is. Incorporeal type needs handling. Do you have undead turning and/or (lesser) restoration in the party? Do you have plenty of Magic Missiles? Then maybe you don't need to be able to contribute in killing them quickly. If you do though, TM > Concussion Blast (even when considering the power level difference) and those are pretty much the only [force] effects that you have got to choose from. The beauty isn't that you can grapple with it, the beauty is that you can grapple a friggin' ghost with it. And have your psicrystal slowly squeeze it to destruction while you go watch Teevo. Show me one of the current PCs who can do that.
archerpwr 12-06-07, 08:08 PM	Great Logic I'm convinced. I assume I should trade out touchsight and pick that back up next level?
hovnarr 12-06-07, 10:05 PM	I'd (reluctantly) choose invisibility counter measures over incorporeal counter measures. But I hope it won't have to come to that. Try to fit either Touchsight or True Seeing AND Telekinetic Maneuver. In your 9th level Egoist who also wants to cover the functions of a healer - I KNOW! It is like this, playing a psion. You want it all and you want it now. I'm trying to cover blasting, reconnaisance and social tricks in a 5th level psion myself. It's hard. But once you find that ultimate recipe for success, it will be worth it. And there's always Psychic Reformation if you try something out and find it didn't work as well as you'd hoped. In my experience though, you can never go wrong with at least one way to handle: *Concealment (Touchsight, True Seeing) *Incorporeal subtype (TM, concussion blast) *Swarm subtype (area effect, wind effect) *Anti-magic/PR/SR (instaneous creation effects, i.e. Crystal X ) *Getting grappled/pawned (dimension door, freedom of movement, even grease works at low levels) *Dispelling (psions are optimum for this task, sorcerors and spontaneous divine casters come second). Those are the fundamentals that every psion should have IMO. Then it comes down to function. If you want to substitute cleric, you splash Egoist powers. If you want more battlefield control, there are many options and Shaper is good. If you want to be a face, go Telepath etc. Then you start adding synergies. Stuff like Solicit Psicrystal when you find that there is room and you have many Concentration powers. Finally comes the tweaking, when you may have to make some difficult choices. Then it's time to work even more closely with other party members and see what can be worked around.
archerpwr 12-06-07, 11:00 PM	I'd (reluctantly) choose invisibility counter measures over incorporeal counter measures. But I hope it won't have to come to that. Try to fit either Touchsight or True Seeing AND Telekinetic Maneuver. In your 9th level Egoist who also wants to cover the functions of a healer - I KNOW! It is like this, playing a psion. You want it all and you want it now. I'm trying to cover blasting, reconnaisance and social tricks in a 5th level psion myself. It's hard. But once you find that ultimate recipe for success, it will be worth it. And there's always Psychic Reformation if you try something out and find it didn't work as well as you'd hoped. In my experience though, you can never go wrong with at least one way to handle: *Concealment (Touchsight, True Seeing) *Incorporeal subtype (TM, concussion blast) *Swarm subtype (area effect, wind effect) *Anti-magic/PR/SR (instaneous creation effects, i.e. Crystal X ) *Getting grappled/pawned (dimension door, freedom of movement, even grease works at low levels) *Dispelling (psions are optimum for this task, sorcerors and spontaneous divine casters come second). Those are the fundamentals that every psion should have IMO. Then it comes down to function. If you want to substitute cleric, you splash Egoist powers. If you want more battlefield control, there are many options and Shaper is good. If you want to be a face, go Telepath etc. Then you start adding synergies. Stuff like Solicit Psicrystal when you find that there is room and you have many Concentration powers. Finally comes the tweaking, when you may have to make some difficult choices. Then it's time to work even more closely with other party members and see what can be worked around. OK, so get touchsight now. Next level pick up TM, Restore Extremity, and extend power? I'm willing to go without dispel for now due to the limited ways to boost my check.
Acksiom 12-07-07, 02:51 AM	The party is *very* heavy on melee. I originally had it in, but RT convinced me that control winds was better for the party (battlefield controle > another tank). I'll need heavy logic to go against RT's advice (who actually happens to be in the campaign right now). Sorry; I wasn't clear about emphasizing the incredible adaptability of the AC ability lists in terms of battlefield control over the mere stupid brute force possibilities. Before I show you my Great Logic, here's a few Good Examples just off the top of my head: Using Muscle and Improved Flight, have your Large beastie haul 1600 pounds (33 Str light load for Large Creaure) of party tanks 80', flying; have it tow them 120' through water with Improved Swim*. Never let the enemy out of tanking range again! Zip your friends and allies around the battlefield like they were Monks on crack! *(Subject to DM rulings; action requirements may apply.) Give it Celerity for a 50' move, Muscle, and Improved Bull Rush to knock the enemy all over the map -- with a charge action, your 5th-level AC has a +15 to its BR Str Check; on the average, that's a 10' shove, and if it pushes the opponent out of a square the party tanks threaten, it's an AoO opportunity for them. Bad BaB? No BaB? No Problem! Bull Rushes consist only of Str Checks; you take no 'to hit' roll now or ever! Park it in front of you for cover or shove it right up in the enemy's faces to block their movement and spellcasting, then add abilities to suit -- Trip, Improved Natural Attack, and Improved Grab are just one possible combo. Yes, get your very own compact 2d6+13 "Wall of AoO" across a 30' frontage now -- but wait, there's more: it's movable, at 80'/round! And that's not all: if the AoO hits, you get a free Grapple attack! But wait, that's still not all: we'll even throw in a free Trip attempt too! Now how many power points would you pay? Going farther afield than just positional battlespace control, with Celerity, Improved Natural Attack, and Trample, it can substitute as a 10' by 100' 2d6+13 Area of Effect attack against grounded medium or smaller creatures. With a Ref save DC of 22 for half-damage (10 + 1/2HD + Str Bonus), even those pesky Rogues and other Evasioners will take all the damage on a regular basis. And did we mention that it's fully adjustable? Yes, you can turn it to the left, right, or either diagonal repeatedly during use, to make sure you cover every available inch of the enemy-occupied battlefield** while simultaneously escaping the usual 'friendly fire' positioning constraints! That's right -- you'll never have to tell your teammates "Move!" or "Oops!" ever again! **(Only one damage attempt per victim per round.) What's that you say? You need to substitute as the party cleric, too? Don't worry -- you're still covered! Pump your Construct up with Fast Healing and Improved Buff, then position it near a party tank and manifest Share Pain on them both. 5th-level Astral Construct: 9PP; Share Pain: 3PP; sparing your teammate up to 83 + 2/round HP damage: Priceless. There are some things power points can't buy. For everything else, there's Astral Construct. As for Great Logic, I need only three words: Effectively, extra actions. Astral Constructs can give you and your friends extra movement actions (including flight), provide Aid Another combat bonuses, meet flanking requirements, block lanes of movement, waste enemy attacks (including spellcasting), serve as cover. . .and that's just the basics; the real list is limited only by your ingenuity. For me, that's one of the essential defining qualities for fun gaming. Versus. . .Control Air? With its necessity for you to burn a feat in order to get it ITFP? And with its almost total lack of targeting options? And worst of all, with its Concentration requirement that prevents you from doing almost anything else? Um, well. . .fun quotient = comparatively nil.
Acksiom 12-07-07, 06:56 AM	<sigh> Okay, I correct myself -- inflamed molar + trying to decide between a Shaper or Egoist for my own next character = forgetting yours is the latter. You're building an Egoist; you need to expend a feat on EK to get AC, which means taking Boost Construct later, not at all, or substituting it for either Psionic Meditation or Extend Power now. Let's look at how this changes my examples: No Muscle, just Improved Flight or Swim -- Flying Snot Monkey's 80' fly/120' swim light load decreases to only 932 pounds. . .which is still two to three tanks. Again, no Muscle, just Improved Bull Rush and Celerity -- BR Str Check bonus drops to +11, +13 after a Charge. . .which is still very likely to move the target 5', and roughly even odds to push them 10'. Substitute Mobility's +4 AC against AoO's for Celerity to increase your battering ram Construct's longevity. Drop Improved Grab but retain Trip and Improved Natural Attack for your movable 30' "Wall of AoO". . .still a pretty darn good substitute enemy movement controller/defensive screen; giving it both Improved Grab and Trip is just gravy on ice cream, really, and Trip is arguably better for this purpose. Alas, the adjustable pseudo-AoE Trample attack loses an average 2.5 points of damage and 20' of its range, for a 10' x only 80' area. . .but the high Ref save DC remains the same, and it's still an adjustable connected-coverage attack, allowing you to turn it as needed to both hit enemies and miss allies. Overchannel it at creation, and it does 1d8+16 damage with a Ref DC of 26. Form of a Hit Point Battery? Oh well, drop Fast Healing, which was really just more gravy on ice cream again. . .and this is still a great way to use the Psicrystal/Share Pain combo on other party members. As to feats, IME, Extend Power is worth it just for the Temporal Acceleration doubling alone later on, even with no hour/level powers on your list; thus, the question then becomes what you're planning to use Psionic Meditation with in the future, havng no other psionic focus feats currently. You've got Vigor to soak Overchannel damage, so Talented isn't as necessary as it might be. So, in the interests of a good build, what do you expect to be expending your Psionic Focus on in levels to come that makes refocusing with only a move-action worthwhile?
hovnarr 12-07-07, 08:20 AM	OK, so get touchsight now. Next level pick up TM, Restore Extremity, and extend power? I'm willing to go without dispel for now due to the limited ways to boost my check. OK, sounds about right. Also, Metamorphic Transfer is sometimes a life saver when you find yourself out of that trick you needed to save the day. I seem to recall ambiguity on whether a (Su) effect could affect incorporeal creatures without the 50% fail chance. Otherwise, pyro/cryohydra offer many small burst in one round - some of them will at least get through. Might be a good bet if you run into incorporeal undead before you can grab TM.
RadicalTaoist 12-07-07, 02:14 PM	Okay, I correct myself -- inflamed molar + trying to decide between a Shaper or Egoist for my own next character = forgetting yours is the latter. You're building an Egoist; you need to expend a feat on EK to get AC, which means taking Boost Construct later, not at all, or substituting it for either Psionic Meditation or Extend Power now. Let's look at how this changes my examples: [...] As to feats, IME, Extend Power is worth it just for the Temporal Acceleration doubling alone later on, even with no hour/level powers on your list; thus, the question then becomes what you're planning to use Psionic Meditation with in the future, havng no other psionic focus feats currently. You've got Vigor to soak Overchannel damage, so Talented isn't as necessary as it might be. So, in the interests of a good build, what do you expect to be expending your Psionic Focus on in levels to come that makes refocusing with only a move-action worthwhile? Good points. Astral Construct is an awesome power, and you've sold me on the party mobility enhancement, but I recommended Control Air because it is a mass "sit down and shut up" action buyer for the party, where Astral Construct is a one-round-action to manifest in a game where terrain disadvantage and shorter darkvision ranges have made us vulnerable to caster interruption and will make us vulnerable again. A psion who can shut down the entire enemy party on his first action is invaluable to us atm. Now that I think of it though, either Extend Power or Talented can wait until 12th level (we won't be extending TAcceleration for a while anyways). So throw AC in there. I'd leave Extend Power out; our party casters could use every hp.
archerpwr 12-07-07, 03:46 PM	Good points. Astral Construct is an awesome power, and you've sold me on the party mobility enhancement, but I recommended Control Air because it is a mass "sit down and shut up" action buyer for the party, where Astral Construct is a one-round-action to manifest in a game where terrain disadvantage and shorter darkvision ranges have made us vulnerable to caster interruption and will make us vulnerable again. A psion who can shut down the entire enemy party on his first action is invaluable to us atm. Now that I think of it though, either Extend Power or Talented can wait until 12th level (we won't be extending TAcceleration for a while anyways). So throw AC in there. I'd leave Extend Power out; our party casters could use every hp. I'll delay psionic meditation for extend and fit in EK(astral construct).
Acksiom 12-08-07, 04:27 PM	. . .I recommended Control Air because it is a mass "sit down and shut up" action buyer for the party, where Astral Construct is a one-round-action to manifest in a game where terrain disadvantage and shorter darkvision ranges have made us vulnerable to caster interruption and will make us vulnerable again. A psion who can shut down the entire enemy party on his first action is invaluable to us atm. Aha! Okay, I get it now; thank you for explaining. Yeah, that makes much more sense -- when the DM is repeatedly sniping you from outside your scanner range, ayep, you need the Telepathy Cannon or a reasonable imitation, and Control Air, especially combined with Solicit Psicrystal, will do the trick. Expensive, but when you really need it, cost becomes less of an issue. And even when you can charge the ambush, suppressive fire artillery is still Your Friend.
RadicalTaoist 12-08-07, 09:32 PM	It gets better if he's got both. Shut the majority of the opposition down right off the bat, then let your psicrystal take over Control Air and start popping out constructs. I see this psion having much potential.
archerpwr 12-08-07, 10:41 PM	It gets better if he's got both. Shut the majority of the opposition down right off the bat, then let your psicrystal take over Control Air and start popping out constructs. I see this psion having much potential. My action list is going to be so complicated... If I get in the game I may lean on your advice at the begining. I do have both though. Psionic Meditation comes in at tenth level with telekinetic maneuver and diminsional door.
hovnarr 12-09-07, 07:38 AM	I see this psion having much potential. Me too. If nothing else, this thread has really opened my eyes to the battlefield control option of Control Air. This psion will be a great field controller/melee supporter, and healer/cleric substitute. Psionic Meditation comes in at tenth level with telekinetic maneuver and diminsional door. Sounds good, and I realize there are different playstyles. RT seems to favor more offensive choices while I'd make sure to cover my own ass with dimdoor as soon as I hit 7th. I typically play defensively. Sometimes, you'll live longer if you play offensively though.
archerpwr 12-09-07, 11:55 AM	Sounds good, and I realize there are different playstyles. RT seems to favor more offensive choices while I'd make sure to cover my own ass with dimdoor as soon as I hit 7th. I typically play defensively. Sometimes, you'll live longer if you play offensively though. Well, a conjurer or ultimate magus is likely joining as well, so I thought I'd be ok for a bit. Focusing on the things that are unique to psions seems a better plan.
PhaedrusXY 12-10-07, 12:47 PM	Take a look at the effects of hurricane force winds. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#winds) Take a look at the wind speed changes available to Control Air. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlAir.htm) Note that you can get hurricane force winds by level 6 through stacking two Control Airs, thanks to Solicit Psicrystal. Now, what was that about Control Air being useless again?My 6th level Psion has 42 power points (I think, going from memory). This would use half of them. So while it would be useful, you would only be able to do it twice per day, and that's if you do nothing else. If you only have 1 encounter per day, then going Nova like this is probably a good idea. The game I'm in usually has 3+ encounters per day. Even when trying to be conservative with PP expenditure, I still often run out.
archerpwr 12-10-07, 01:04 PM	My 6th level Psion has 42 power points (I think, going from memory). This would use half of them. So while it would be useful, you would only be able to do it twice per day, and that's if you do nothing else. If you only have 1 encounter per day, then going Nova like this is probably a good idea. The game I'm in usually has 3+ encounters per day. Even when trying to be conservative with PP expenditure, I still often run out. Ah, but my level 9 psion has 106 powerpoints. 8 points on control winds and 3 points on solicit psicrystal is a very affordable combo for an opening assault/continued battlefield control.
PhaedrusXY 12-10-07, 01:10 PM	Ah, but my level 9 psion has 106 powerpoints. 8 points on control winds and 3 points on solicit psicrystal is a very affordable combo for an opening assault/continued battlefield control.True. If you're starting at 9th level, it is more affordable. I was responding to RT's assertion that you can pull off Hurricane force winds at level 6. Yes, you could, but it would be extremely costly. It sure would have come in handy when we faced all those FN stirges, though... :D
archerpwr 12-10-07, 01:23 PM	True. If you're starting at 9th level, it is more affordable. I was responding to RT's assertion that you can pull off Hurricane force winds at level 6. Yes, you could, but it would be extremely costly. It sure would have come in handy when we faced all those FN stirges, though... :D Well, you really don't need hurricane force winds most of the time. 40 mph winds (3 base pp +3 augment +3 solicit psicrystal) will check medium and smaller creatures. More than enough at level 6. Large creatures (nonflying) can approach by foot, but they have to deal with evard's black tentacles and the likes. Fully augmented control winds stops the approach of all but gargantuan flying creatures or gargantian/collosal landbound creatures. With all but siege weapons and spells being stopped, you can just say "no" to the approaching opposition.
PhaedrusXY 12-10-07, 01:53 PM	After looking it over, it does sound good. They get a Fort. save to avoid the effects though, right? Otherwise, what is the Fort. save listed in the table for? The 3 point augment gets you to Severe, which has a Fort. save of 15. That's going to be pretty easy for most dangerous melee enemies to make. If you ramp it up to the next level (Windstorm), the DC goes up to 18 and it makes normal ranged attacks impossible. That sounds alot better, and still only takes one manifestation.
archerpwr 12-10-07, 02:00 PM	After looking it over, it does sound good. They get a Fort. save to avoid the effects though, right? Otherwise, what is the Fort. save listed in the table for? The 3 point augment gets you to Severe, which has a Fort. save of 15. That's going to be pretty easy for most dangerous melee enemies to make. If you ramp it up to the next level (Windstorm), the DC goes up to 18 and it makes normal ranged attacks impossible. That sounds alot better, and still only takes one manifestation. I believe that is the DC to not be blown away.
PhaedrusXY 12-10-07, 02:10 PM	I believe that is the DC to not be blown away.For "strong" winds, there is a DC listed for "Knocked down". I think the save DC applies to everything below it on the list for the other wind strengths. I don't have the actual 3.5 DMG. Maybe it is more clearly described in there than it is in the SRD.
archerpwr 12-10-07, 02:25 PM	For "strong" winds, there is a DC listed for "Knocked down". I think the save DC applies to everything below it on the list for the other wind strengths. I don't have the actual 3.5 DMG. Maybe it is more clearly described in there than it is in the SRD. Maybe you're right. I'm not absolutely sure on what that DC is for. Maybe RT will stop by this thread later and clarify for us.
RadicalTaoist 12-10-07, 02:26 PM	Depends on the size of the target. Windstorm will do just fine in most cases. (EDIT: The DC depends on the strength of the winds. The consequences of failing depends on the size of the target.) As per hurricane winds: the math's a bit off. A 6 pp Control Air gives +40 windspeed. Two of them gives you 80 from a still area. (6x2)+5=17 pp, so your level six psion could do this twice and have 8 pp to spare. Still overkill and nova-ey, true, but hey.
Suspect_Unusual 12-10-07, 02:29 PM	Depends on the size of the target. Windstorm will do just fine in most cases. (EDIT: The DC depends on the strength of the winds. The consequences of failing depends on the size of the target.) As per hurricane winds: the math's a bit off. A 6 pp Control Air gives +40 windspeed. Two of them gives you 80 from a still area. (6x2)+5=17 pp, so your level six psion could do this twice and have 8 pp to spare. Still overkill and nova-ey, true, but hey. I was under the impression that they didn't stack? Someone made a pretty cogent argument earlier in this thread, didn't they?
archerpwr 12-10-07, 02:35 PM	Depends on the size of the target. Windstorm will do just fine in most cases. (EDIT: The DC depends on the strength of the winds. The consequences of failing depends on the size of the target.) As per hurricane winds: the math's a bit off. A 6 pp Control Air gives +40 windspeed. Two of them gives you 80 from a still area. (6x2)+5=17 pp, so your level six psion could do this twice and have 8 pp to spare. Still overkill and nova-ey, true, but hey. Could I empower control air to get a 90 mph change in speed next level if I grabbed it? I was under the impression that they didn't stack? Someone made a pretty cogent argument earlier in this thread, didn't they? You have some control over wind speed and direction. The speed of the wind within the area of this power can be increased or decreased by up to 10 miles per hour. I don't see why not. In fact, two psions could be opposing eachother for a net gain in 0 mph.
CrimsonDeath 12-10-07, 03:22 PM	Could I empower control air to get a 90 mph change in speed next level if I grabbed it? I don't think so. The increase in wind speed isn't variable.
Fafnir 12-10-07, 03:24 PM	Could I empower control air to get a 90 mph change in speed next level if I grabbed it? No, because it's not a variable effect.
archerpwr 12-10-07, 03:28 PM	I don't think so. The increase in wind speed isn't variable. ok, I'll need to spend a feat to get three up at once for tornado force winds. Edit: no I won't. Choker+metamorphic transfer! CA 1: Psicrystal takes care of CA 2 & 3: I take care off. :dancin:
Suspect_Unusual 12-10-07, 04:45 PM	Under Stacking: Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths In cases when two or more similar or identical effects are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. If one power or spell is dispelled or its duration runs out, the other power or spell remains in effect (assuming its duration has not yet expired). This leaves us the question of what happens when it's the same effect more than once of equal strength, but the intent seems clear (to me).
archerpwr 12-10-07, 04:51 PM	Under Stacking: This leaves us the question of what happens when it's the same effect more than once of equal strength, but the intent seems clear (to me). Generally, real world measurements don't fall into stacking rules. I can't seem to find the specific evidence right now.
PhaedrusXY 12-10-07, 04:52 PM	Generally, real world measurements don't fall into stacking rules. I can't seem to find the specific evidence right now.That's the multiplication rules that don't apply to "real world measurements". I have seen nothing saying that about stacking rules. I am inclined to agree that multiple Control Airs would not stack.
archerpwr 12-10-07, 05:06 PM	That's the multiplication rules that don't apply to "real world measurements". I have seen nothing saying that about stacking rules. I am inclined to agree that multiple Control Airs would not stack. Well, that's a shame. I guess I'll have to settle for windstorms for 13 pp.
RadicalTaoist 12-10-07, 05:52 PM	Ironically enough, compare to Control Winds. CoDzilla wins again.
archerpwr 12-10-07, 06:15 PM	Ironically enough, compare to Control Air. CoDzilla wins again. Yep. Gotta love that control winds free scaling.
PhaedrusXY 12-10-07, 06:24 PM	Ironically enough, compare to Control Winds. CoDzilla wins again.FTFY, and of course. They're not called Priests of the Coast for nothing, right? :D The CoDs also don't have to bother concentrating on Control Winds to maintain it. It automatically lasts for 10 min/level. :P