Fist of Zuoken better than monk? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fist of Zuoken better than monk? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Yokinobu
06-30-07, 04:18 AM Would it be more beneficial in general for a githzerai to go straight monk, or to take levels in fist of Zuoken(sp?)? I'm asking this as someone who hasn't had a lot of experience with monks or psionics, I need to know if it is worth it. I know taking that prestige class sets you back alot as a monk, but you can use really helpful powers like psionic shield and the like. Also, has anyone taken a look at the githzerai PrC's in Dragon #281? I haven't looked at the Zerth Cenobite in Complete Psionic, but did it get totally nerfed in comparison to the PrC in that issue?
Everdreaming
06-30-07, 04:25 AM Depends. If you just want unarmed damage, bonuses to armor class and bonues to speed, then by all means go for it, as those improve when you take levels in fist o Zuoken. If you want monk special abilities, it depends on which you want more, psionic abilities or monk abilities.
InkBlot
06-30-07, 01:57 PM Fist Of Zuoken can do more than a monk can, but can't do it all day. For example, let's look at Bob (Monk7/FoZ10) and John (Monk17).

Bob and John both get poisoned, both fail their fort saves, and both take 8 points of Strength damage.

Luckily, Bob chose to spend one of his 10 powers known on body purification. Bob spends 9 (10%) of his 91 daily power points to heal the ability damage.

John has been immune to poison for the last 6 levels, thanks to Diamond Body.

Bob and John come to a ravine which is too far for either of them to jump across (which is pretty far, considering how good monks are at jumping). They decide to teleport across. Prudently, Bob chose dimension door as one of his powers. He spend 7 of his 82 remaining daily power points to 'port over to the far side of the ravine.

John uses his Abundant Step ability to 'port to the far side of the ravine. If he wants to do so again, he has to wait until the next day.

As you can see, each class has it's advantages and disadvantages. They're balanced against each other.

Personally, I think the FoZ is more fun to play because the class is less pigeon-holed, and because it gets more tactical options beside "I full attack." Other people may prefer to play the monk class because it gives them everything they need without having to worry about making the right choice, and because it can do a lot of neat things without having to keep track of power points.
kyeudo
06-30-07, 02:02 PM Do both, or nearly so.

Get Secrets of Sarlona and the Eberron Campaign setting. Take Monastic Training (Fist of Zuoken) and Talashnatora (sp?) and your Fist of Zuoken levels will stack with your monk levels for determining your unarmed strike damage, move speed, AC bonus, and Flurry of Blows.

I believe that with Fist of Zuoken you can end up with more effective monk levels than you actualy have, but since most of my books are in storage I can't say for sure.
The_Shaman
06-30-07, 03:32 PM I'm not sure if you can add the same level twice. It could work, but I don't know, it sounds awfully cheezy.

So what does the FoZ lose from the monk? Flurry progression and monk special abilities, imo. Is it worth it for powers and 2 bonus psionic feats? I think yes. The spell resistance can be nice, and improved evasion is okay, too, but the rest does not sound that impressive.
InkBlot
06-30-07, 04:29 PM You're right. Improved Evasion is nice. It's a good thing Fists Of Zuoken can get it for 9 power points with evade burst. (http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersDtoF.html#evade-burst)

Unfortunately power resistance is just out of reach, as a 5th level psion/wilder power.
Thomar_of_Uointer
06-30-07, 05:24 PM They're pretty even. However, I'd go with Fist of Zuoken, if only so that you can use grip of iron and expansion to easily grapple anything you can grapple.
InkBlot
06-30-07, 05:58 PM Well, grappling has always been kind of pointless unless you can make yourself larger. Monsters just get bigger and bigger, but you can only grapple things up to one size category larger than yourself.

If the adventure is focused around humanoids, then you might be able to get away with grappling without increasing your size. Size modifiers are still a great source of grapple bonuses, and 3/4 BAB isn't good enough to grapple without outside bonuses, but at least it's still possible to grapple your enemies.
The_Shaman
06-30-07, 07:50 PM You're right. Improved Evasion is nice. It's a good thing Fists Of Zuoken can get it for 9 power points with evade burst. (http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersDtoF.html#evade-burst)

Is it actually worth it, I wonder? Chances are, your character will have a good reflex save to begin with - multi- and prestige-classing is often bad for the BAB, but nice for saves. Plus, the character only learns up to 10 powers to begin with.

Power resistance... Pity about that, I guess. I suppose you will just have to rely on your good saves. Still worth it to be a FoZ imo. Then again, the OP asked for a Githzerai, and they tend to have a little PR too. Not much, but probably enough to equal what PR would give you with 10 to 14 manifester levels. Plus, they have feather fall covered, too, and they have the dex to really crank up that reflex save.

Overall, I'd say yes, a gith monk can do a lot of fun things with FoZ. AFAIK there has been a ruling by customer service that any PP reserve, particularly that of psionic races, is enough to qualify for FoZ. Therefore, you don't need to bother with wild talent.
CrimsonDeath
06-30-07, 09:23 PM I agree that Evade Burst probably isn't worth it. For one thing, as The Shaman said, you have Evasion all the time and a good Reflex save, so the Improved version probably isn't worth 9 PP apiece. For another, if you're really worried about a particular attack, Damp Power will usually be able to cover it for 1/3 the cost, or the 9 PP you might have spent on Evade Burst could instead give you a 4d12 Body Adjustment, probably enough to heal half the damage from a 15d6 Cone of Cold (enough to turn the full damage of a failed save with Evasion into the half damage of a failed save with Improved Evasion).
InkBlot
06-30-07, 10:49 PM That's very true. There are cheaper and better defenses than evade burst for a FoZ.

Just a note on BAB. If you want to maximize your BAB from Monk and Fist Of Zuoken, take your levels in multiples of 4. For example, Monk8/FoZ8 has 12 BAB, while Monk7/FoZ9 only has 11 BAB.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yokinobu 06-30-07, 04:18 AM	Would it be more beneficial in general for a githzerai to go straight monk, or to take levels in fist of Zuoken(sp?)? I'm asking this as someone who hasn't had a lot of experience with monks or psionics, I need to know if it is worth it. I know taking that prestige class sets you back alot as a monk, but you can use really helpful powers like psionic shield and the like. Also, has anyone taken a look at the githzerai PrC's in Dragon #281? I haven't looked at the Zerth Cenobite in Complete Psionic, but did it get totally nerfed in comparison to the PrC in that issue?
Everdreaming 06-30-07, 04:25 AM	Depends. If you just want unarmed damage, bonuses to armor class and bonues to speed, then by all means go for it, as those improve when you take levels in fist o Zuoken. If you want monk special abilities, it depends on which you want more, psionic abilities or monk abilities.
InkBlot 06-30-07, 01:57 PM	Fist Of Zuoken can do more than a monk can, but can't do it all day. For example, let's look at Bob (Monk7/FoZ10) and John (Monk17). Bob and John both get poisoned, both fail their fort saves, and both take 8 points of Strength damage. Luckily, Bob chose to spend one of his 10 powers known on body purification. Bob spends 9 (10%) of his 91 daily power points to heal the ability damage. John has been immune to poison for the last 6 levels, thanks to Diamond Body. Bob and John come to a ravine which is too far for either of them to jump across (which is pretty far, considering how good monks are at jumping). They decide to teleport across. Prudently, Bob chose dimension door as one of his powers. He spend 7 of his 82 remaining daily power points to 'port over to the far side of the ravine. John uses his Abundant Step ability to 'port to the far side of the ravine. If he wants to do so again, he has to wait until the next day. As you can see, each class has it's advantages and disadvantages. They're balanced against each other. Personally, I think the FoZ is more fun to play because the class is less pigeon-holed, and because it gets more tactical options beside "I full attack." Other people may prefer to play the monk class because it gives them everything they need without having to worry about making the right choice, and because it can do a lot of neat things without having to keep track of power points.
kyeudo 06-30-07, 02:02 PM	Do both, or nearly so. Get Secrets of Sarlona and the Eberron Campaign setting. Take Monastic Training (Fist of Zuoken) and Talashnatora (sp?) and your Fist of Zuoken levels will stack with your monk levels for determining your unarmed strike damage, move speed, AC bonus, and Flurry of Blows. I believe that with Fist of Zuoken you can end up with more effective monk levels than you actualy have, but since most of my books are in storage I can't say for sure.
The_Shaman 06-30-07, 03:32 PM	I'm not sure if you can add the same level twice. It could work, but I don't know, it sounds awfully cheezy. So what does the FoZ lose from the monk? Flurry progression and monk special abilities, imo. Is it worth it for powers and 2 bonus psionic feats? I think yes. The spell resistance can be nice, and improved evasion is okay, too, but the rest does not sound that impressive.
InkBlot 06-30-07, 04:29 PM	You're right. Improved Evasion is nice. It's a good thing Fists Of Zuoken can get it for 9 power points with evade burst. (http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersDtoF.html#evade-burst) Unfortunately power resistance is just out of reach, as a 5th level psion/wilder power.
Thomar_of_Uointer 06-30-07, 05:24 PM	They're pretty even. However, I'd go with Fist of Zuoken, if only so that you can use grip of iron and expansion to easily grapple anything you can grapple.
InkBlot 06-30-07, 05:58 PM	Well, grappling has always been kind of pointless unless you can make yourself larger. Monsters just get bigger and bigger, but you can only grapple things up to one size category larger than yourself. If the adventure is focused around humanoids, then you might be able to get away with grappling without increasing your size. Size modifiers are still a great source of grapple bonuses, and 3/4 BAB isn't good enough to grapple without outside bonuses, but at least it's still possible to grapple your enemies.
The_Shaman 06-30-07, 07:50 PM	You're right. Improved Evasion is nice. It's a good thing Fists Of Zuoken can get it for 9 power points with evade burst. (http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersDtoF.html#evade-burst) Is it actually worth it, I wonder? Chances are, your character will have a good reflex save to begin with - multi- and prestige-classing is often bad for the BAB, but nice for saves. Plus, the character only learns up to 10 powers to begin with. Power resistance... Pity about that, I guess. I suppose you will just have to rely on your good saves. Still worth it to be a FoZ imo. Then again, the OP asked for a Githzerai, and they tend to have a little PR too. Not much, but probably enough to equal what PR would give you with 10 to 14 manifester levels. Plus, they have feather fall covered, too, and they have the dex to really crank up that reflex save. Overall, I'd say yes, a gith monk can do a lot of fun things with FoZ. AFAIK there has been a ruling by customer service that any PP reserve, particularly that of psionic races, is enough to qualify for FoZ. Therefore, you don't need to bother with wild talent.
CrimsonDeath 06-30-07, 09:23 PM	I agree that Evade Burst probably isn't worth it. For one thing, as The Shaman said, you have Evasion all the time and a good Reflex save, so the Improved version probably isn't worth 9 PP apiece. For another, if you're really worried about a particular attack, Damp Power will usually be able to cover it for 1/3 the cost, or the 9 PP you might have spent on Evade Burst could instead give you a 4d12 Body Adjustment, probably enough to heal half the damage from a 15d6 Cone of Cold (enough to turn the full damage of a failed save with Evasion into the half damage of a failed save with Improved Evasion).
InkBlot 06-30-07, 10:49 PM	That's very true. There are cheaper and better defenses than evade burst for a FoZ. Just a note on BAB. If you want to maximize your BAB from Monk and Fist Of Zuoken, take your levels in multiples of 4. For example, Monk8/FoZ8 has 12 BAB, while Monk7/FoZ9 only has 11 BAB.