fists of zuoken and psionic creatures [Archive] - Wizards Community

fists of zuoken and psionic creatures [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
lyredragon
02-12-07, 02:30 PM you'll have to forgive me if this has allready been answered, but I have been wading through the forum looking for an answer, but mybe have missed it. Anyway.

I have an Elan Psy warrior 2 Monk 4 going for Fists of Zuoken next level. The problem I am having is with the Wild Talent feat that is a prereq for the class. It seems to me a bit redundant to require that from a creature(such as the elan) who is already naturally psionic and has previous levels in a psionic class (My first two levels were in psy warrior, followed by the next four in monk so that I can return to being a monk if I choose when I get to the end of the PrC)

Wild talent, from the flavor of the feat as I understand it is meant for a non-psionic race, and it "awakens" the previously non-psioniac creature to the powers latent in his mind, giving him access to psionic classes and 2 pp just as if he were from a naturally psionicrace.

here's the deal: it seems redundant to me to give an elan (or any naturally psionic race) Wild Talent, mostly because they pretty much know their tendancies to begin with. But then agan, they theoretically can't access their natural PP until they take a manifesting class.

ok. sonow on to the questions.

My Elan, naturally Psionic, has two previous levels in psy warrior before taking her monk levels. She is psionically active, has psionic feats, and all that other goodness, so why does she still need wild talent? by the book it is required, but like I said seems redundant. Does she really still need Wild Talent to enter the Fists of Zuoken?

#2 if it is still required do the offered pp's of the feat stack with the ones that she gets naturally, giving her, in esence, 4 bonus pps (not counting ability bonus pps)? WHat benefit does the Wild talent give that makes it an absolute requirement for the PrC?

#3 this is strictly an aside question, but why did the authors nerf the elan as presented in the monsters section by giving her levels in standard DMG warrior rather than psy warrior? Poor gal. She spent all this time and effort getting selected for the process and then abandoning her humanity to become a psionic abberation and her first move as a brand new character was to become an NPC warrior. . .unable to use the powers she has so painstakingly gone through the process of earning
SlanderPanic
02-12-07, 03:40 PM 1: I'd waive the Wild Talent requirement for characters who already have a power point reserve. You're right in that it would be redundant and relatively useless. Also note that you don't need to have Wild Talent or be from a naturally-psionic race to gain levels in psionic classes. Your elf wizard can multiclass into psion without having to take a single feat.

2: Yes, they stack. As for the reason why it's there, it's so that single-classed monks who already had a spark of psionic ability can join the order. I don't have the book on me right now, but I believe it says something about the Fists specifically searching out recruits with preexisting talent.

3: Elans are big on violence and danger. Also, think of becoming an elan like joining a big corporation: You give them your soul, they give you some measly "benefits" that you actually have to pay for out of your own pocket, and sometimes they stick you into the tiniest, most cramped cubicle they have. Or maybe Bruce was getting lazy by the time he got around to monsterizing the new PC races.
Artector
02-12-07, 03:48 PM Its not uncommon for DMs to waive the Wild Talent prequisite for the Fist of Zuoken, so long as you have power points.

And not everyone is a hero, the Elan perhaps just makes use of his natural abilities in battle. Or perhaps the Elan hasn't been fully trained in the Psionic arts.
madmonk
02-12-07, 06:13 PM thats because ALL races are made with one level of warrior and the npc numbers, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, so you have a crappy monster, but it is a normal character encounterable in any village. I know this makes no sense with Elans but that is the standar.
Count Arioch the 28th
02-13-07, 02:59 PM If I was the DM in question, I would give the player a choice if they were playing a psionic character that wanted to be a Fist of Zuoken.

They could either suck it up and take the Wild Talent feat, or they could take a custom feat for my game:

Set a feat on fire
Prerequisites: None
Effect: When entering a PrC, you may waive one feat requirement, provided that the feat you are emulating had no prerequisites of its own. This feat has no other effect.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. The effects stack.

At any rate, the class was designed that you had to spend one feat on something crappy so you could enter the PrC. I wouldn't waive having to have Wild Talent to enter Fist of Zuoken any more than I would allow a dwarf with Improved Toughness to enter Dwarven Defender, or allow a small race to enter Duelist without taking Dodge.

Feat prereqs are there for a mechanical reason, not flavor.
Bacris
02-13-07, 04:32 PM Here's the problem with that thought process: as a psionic race or class, you are already a psionic character, which is explicitly what Wild Talent is meant to do.

Me? I'd allow you to take Psionic Talent instead, but still require the feat.
Shado
02-13-07, 05:13 PM Didn't Bruce make mention in a blog or something that Fist of Zuoken was supposed to be Wild Talent or naturally psionic? He said something along those lines I believe.

Anyway, as for me, I'd use the wording in the Zerth Cenobite. (Another psionic Monk class designed to be entered by Monks more than from psionic classes.) "Power point reserve of at least 2." Wild Talent can qualify you as can some naturally psionic races.
Count Arioch the 28th
02-14-07, 09:35 AM Here's the problem with that thought process: as a psionic race or class, you are already a psionic character, which is explicitly what Wild Talent is meant to do.

Me? I'd allow you to take Psionic Talent instead, but still require the feat.

That's a slippery slope argument.

"My dwarf has Improved Toughness, he should be allowed to get into Dwarven Defender because he's already tough enough without toughness"

"My elf has 22 dexterity. He shouldn't have to take dodge to get into duelist, as he's already good at dodging stuff."

The feat isn't there for FLAVOR. It is there for MECHANICS, it is there to make the entrant set a feat on fire so they can enter a class. That's it. You could just as easily replace the feat with Dodge, or Endurance, or any other crap feats that people only take because they want better things later.

It's not to make the character psionic. It's to waste a feat to enter.
Tyler Do'Urden
02-14-07, 10:03 AM That's a slippery slope argument.No, your post is a slippery slope argument. Bacris's post was a reasonable house rule.

Slippery slope is fallacious because making one exeption does not in any way necessitate making another. Letting Improved Tougness count as Toughness is a similar houserule, significantly more popular, but it came up independently of this one and is decided upon independantly.

Letting a high Dex bonus count as having Dodge is just stupid. Idunno how you came up with that.

Look at the differences between Wild Talent and Psionic Talent. They both grant 2 power points. If you already had Psionic Body, the latter would give you an extra 2 hit points.

Woo.

If you're only going to take the feat once, I don't really see a difference, therefore I don't see a problem.
Count Arioch the 28th
02-14-07, 10:10 AM No, your post is a slippery slope argument.

Your mother's a slippery slope argument.

Look, feat prerequisites are there for a reason. You can't just start dropping them just because you feel like it. Fist of Zuoken requires Wild Talent. That applies if you're non-psionic, if you're a psionic race, or if you have 50 levels of psion.

It has nothing to do with being psionic, it is a crappy, throw-away feat prerequisite to discourage people from taking the class. And I don't see why that's so hard for you people to grasp.

(Maybe this is why there's so much psi-hate, it's because you people don't actually listen to others.)
Tyler Do'Urden
02-14-07, 11:32 AM Your mother's a slippery slope argument.Sometimes.

Look, feat prerequisites are there for a reason. You can't just start dropping them just because you feel like it.We're not dropping it because we feel like it. We're houseruling in the option to replace it with a functionally identical feat because it makes sense. It's not a new idea either; there's three feats in the Book of Nine Swords that count as other feats for prerequisite purposes.
Netherek
02-14-07, 03:20 PM Actually, you can just drop it. The first you of gaming is "it's your game" and that means you can do what you want with it. You paid for it.

It doesn't make sense for a creature who is already psionic to take wild talent. Think about it...

It's like taking deflect missiles twice...

I always thought it meant you must have psionic ability (power point reserve) as that is what the feat grants to begin with.
Jhaelen
02-14-07, 04:15 PM thats because ALL races are made with one level of warrior and the npc numbers, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, so you have a crappy monster, but it is a normal character encounterable in any village.Well, there ARE exceptions to the rule: Check out the Blue :)
Artector
02-14-07, 04:24 PM Well, there ARE exceptions to the rule: Check out the Blue :)

I'd have to check to be sure, but I'd bet the Blue has the elite array that's equal to the 25 point buy. And the reason he has it is because he has a level of Psion, instead of Warrior, or racial HD.

Run your games how you want, remove the feat requirment or don't. I think the class is fine without needing to burn a feat, you're gonna have to be A) a psionic race, B) to burn the feat anyways C) Multi-class
The_Shaman
02-17-07, 08:40 PM Look, feat prerequisites are there for a reason. You can't just start dropping them just because you feel like it. Fist of Zuoken requires Wild Talent. That applies if you're non-psionic, if you're a psionic race, or if you have 50 levels of psion.

Oh, they're there for a reason, definitely. But does the reason have to be to make the feat choices crappy? Well, in this case, half the PrCs fail - many monk and caster PrCs, for example. Instead, I have another idea. I say that since PrCs are generally specialists, the feats and skills required are supposed to show that the characters have indeed specialized in a given field - the field that you're working on. In other words, that feats are there for a good reason. Thaumaturge doesn't require SF (conjuration) because it's poor, but because you're working with summoning magic. Duelist is a PrC for fighters (there weren't any swashies then) who were particularly nimble and quick, hence its prerequisites, etc, etc. If you adhere to this notion (and I've seen no official reason why not to) then allowing psionic races to access FoZ without Wild Talent makes perfect sense. They already have the talent the feat is supposed to represent. It's like saying a dwarf who wants to be an EWM for the urgrosh has to burn another feat in proficiency with it.

It has nothing to do with being psionic, it is a crappy, throw-away feat prerequisite to discourage people from taking the class. And I don't see why that's so hard for you people to grasp.

(Maybe this is why there's so much psi-hate, it's because you people don't actually listen to others.)

So you say, and I say you're wrong. Care to point to an official statement saying "Well, since PrCs are that good, we wanted to make your life hell if you wanted to choose it?" I haven't seen it, and I seriously doubt it's true. There's also the matter that not all PrCs are as strong as, or even equal to, the core classes... and that you are already committing some resources by any skills and feats investment.
kelvinaw273
02-19-07, 02:24 PM Waive it. It is so flaming obvious that what they worded in the Zerth Cenobite is what they intended in the Fist of Zuoken. In fact the FoZ is (I think) in the SRD as the Psionic Fist and the requirement there is Wild Talent OR Naturally Psionic, not both.
Bacris
02-19-07, 02:27 PM and the requirement there is Wild Talent OR Naturally Psionic, not both.

I'm afraid the SRD still has Wild Talent only.
Amaril
02-24-07, 01:49 PM This topic has come up on numerous occasions. Customer Service has officially indicated that being a psionic race (read: naturally psionic) qualifies for the Wild Talent requirement.

The origin of the Wild Talent requirement is one of flavor; Zuoken is a deity of a human culture known as the Bakluni in the World of Greyhawk campaign setting. This culture is known for monk and psionic studies among their people. Thus it is assumed that humans are the primary candidates for the prestige class in question.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lyredragon 02-12-07, 02:30 PM	you'll have to forgive me if this has allready been answered, but I have been wading through the forum looking for an answer, but mybe have missed it. Anyway. I have an Elan Psy warrior 2 Monk 4 going for Fists of Zuoken next level. The problem I am having is with the Wild Talent feat that is a prereq for the class. It seems to me a bit redundant to require that from a creature(such as the elan) who is already naturally psionic and has previous levels in a psionic class (My first two levels were in psy warrior, followed by the next four in monk so that I can return to being a monk if I choose when I get to the end of the PrC) Wild talent, from the flavor of the feat as I understand it is meant for a non-psionic race, and it "awakens" the previously non-psioniac creature to the powers latent in his mind, giving him access to psionic classes and 2 pp just as if he were from a naturally psionicrace. here's the deal: it seems redundant to me to give an elan (or any naturally psionic race) Wild Talent, mostly because they pretty much know their tendancies to begin with. But then agan, they theoretically can't access their natural PP until they take a manifesting class. ok. sonow on to the questions. My Elan, naturally Psionic, has two previous levels in psy warrior before taking her monk levels. She is psionically active, has psionic feats, and all that other goodness, so why does she still need wild talent? by the book it is required, but like I said seems redundant. Does she really still need Wild Talent to enter the Fists of Zuoken? #2 if it is still required do the offered pp's of the feat stack with the ones that she gets naturally, giving her, in esence, 4 bonus pps (not counting ability bonus pps)? WHat benefit does the Wild talent give that makes it an absolute requirement for the PrC? #3 this is strictly an aside question, but why did the authors nerf the elan as presented in the monsters section by giving her levels in standard DMG warrior rather than psy warrior? Poor gal. She spent all this time and effort getting selected for the process and then abandoning her humanity to become a psionic abberation and her first move as a brand new character was to become an NPC warrior. . .unable to use the powers she has so painstakingly gone through the process of earning
SlanderPanic 02-12-07, 03:40 PM	1: I'd waive the Wild Talent requirement for characters who already have a power point reserve. You're right in that it would be redundant and relatively useless. Also note that you don't need to have Wild Talent or be from a naturally-psionic race to gain levels in psionic classes. Your elf wizard can multiclass into psion without having to take a single feat. 2: Yes, they stack. As for the reason why it's there, it's so that single-classed monks who already had a spark of psionic ability can join the order. I don't have the book on me right now, but I believe it says something about the Fists specifically searching out recruits with preexisting talent. 3: Elans are big on violence and danger. Also, think of becoming an elan like joining a big corporation: You give them your soul, they give you some measly "benefits" that you actually have to pay for out of your own pocket, and sometimes they stick you into the tiniest, most cramped cubicle they have. Or maybe Bruce was getting lazy by the time he got around to monsterizing the new PC races.
Artector 02-12-07, 03:48 PM	Its not uncommon for DMs to waive the Wild Talent prequisite for the Fist of Zuoken, so long as you have power points. And not everyone is a hero, the Elan perhaps just makes use of his natural abilities in battle. Or perhaps the Elan hasn't been fully trained in the Psionic arts.
madmonk 02-12-07, 06:13 PM	thats because ALL races are made with one level of warrior and the npc numbers, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, so you have a crappy monster, but it is a normal character encounterable in any village. I know this makes no sense with Elans but that is the standar.
Count Arioch the 28th 02-13-07, 02:59 PM	If I was the DM in question, I would give the player a choice if they were playing a psionic character that wanted to be a Fist of Zuoken. They could either suck it up and take the Wild Talent feat, or they could take a custom feat for my game: Set a feat on fire Prerequisites: None Effect: When entering a PrC, you may waive one feat requirement, provided that the feat you are emulating had no prerequisites of its own. This feat has no other effect. Special: You may take this feat multiple times. The effects stack. At any rate, the class was designed that you had to spend one feat on something crappy so you could enter the PrC. I wouldn't waive having to have Wild Talent to enter Fist of Zuoken any more than I would allow a dwarf with Improved Toughness to enter Dwarven Defender, or allow a small race to enter Duelist without taking Dodge. Feat prereqs are there for a mechanical reason, not flavor.
Bacris 02-13-07, 04:32 PM	Here's the problem with that thought process: as a psionic race or class, you are already a psionic character, which is explicitly what Wild Talent is meant to do. Me? I'd allow you to take Psionic Talent instead, but still require the feat.
Shado 02-13-07, 05:13 PM	Didn't Bruce make mention in a blog or something that Fist of Zuoken was supposed to be Wild Talent or naturally psionic? He said something along those lines I believe. Anyway, as for me, I'd use the wording in the Zerth Cenobite. (Another psionic Monk class designed to be entered by Monks more than from psionic classes.) "Power point reserve of at least 2." Wild Talent can qualify you as can some naturally psionic races.
Count Arioch the 28th 02-14-07, 09:35 AM	Here's the problem with that thought process: as a psionic race or class, you are already a psionic character, which is explicitly what Wild Talent is meant to do. Me? I'd allow you to take Psionic Talent instead, but still require the feat. That's a slippery slope argument. "My dwarf has Improved Toughness, he should be allowed to get into Dwarven Defender because he's already tough enough without toughness" "My elf has 22 dexterity. He shouldn't have to take dodge to get into duelist, as he's already good at dodging stuff." The feat isn't there for FLAVOR. It is there for MECHANICS, it is there to make the entrant set a feat on fire so they can enter a class. That's it. You could just as easily replace the feat with Dodge, or Endurance, or any other crap feats that people only take because they want better things later. It's not to make the character psionic. It's to waste a feat to enter.
Tyler Do'Urden 02-14-07, 10:03 AM	That's a slippery slope argument.No, your post is a slippery slope argument. Bacris's post was a reasonable house rule. Slippery slope is fallacious because making one exeption does not in any way necessitate making another. Letting Improved Tougness count as Toughness is a similar houserule, significantly more popular, but it came up independently of this one and is decided upon independantly. Letting a high Dex bonus count as having Dodge is just stupid. Idunno how you came up with that. Look at the differences between Wild Talent and Psionic Talent. They both grant 2 power points. If you already had Psionic Body, the latter would give you an extra 2 hit points. Woo. If you're only going to take the feat once, I don't really see a difference, therefore I don't see a problem.
Count Arioch the 28th 02-14-07, 10:10 AM	No, your post is a slippery slope argument. Your mother's a slippery slope argument. Look, feat prerequisites are there for a reason. You can't just start dropping them just because you feel like it. Fist of Zuoken requires Wild Talent. That applies if you're non-psionic, if you're a psionic race, or if you have 50 levels of psion. It has nothing to do with being psionic, it is a crappy, throw-away feat prerequisite to discourage people from taking the class. And I don't see why that's so hard for you people to grasp. (Maybe this is why there's so much psi-hate, it's because you people don't actually listen to others.)
Tyler Do'Urden 02-14-07, 11:32 AM	Your mother's a slippery slope argument.Sometimes. Look, feat prerequisites are there for a reason. You can't just start dropping them just because you feel like it.We're not dropping it because we feel like it. We're houseruling in the option to replace it with a functionally identical feat because it makes sense. It's not a new idea either; there's three feats in the Book of Nine Swords that count as other feats for prerequisite purposes.
Netherek 02-14-07, 03:20 PM	Actually, you can just drop it. The first you of gaming is "it's your game" and that means you can do what you want with it. You paid for it. It doesn't make sense for a creature who is already psionic to take wild talent. Think about it... It's like taking deflect missiles twice... I always thought it meant you must have psionic ability (power point reserve) as that is what the feat grants to begin with.
Jhaelen 02-14-07, 04:15 PM	thats because ALL races are made with one level of warrior and the npc numbers, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, so you have a crappy monster, but it is a normal character encounterable in any village.Well, there ARE exceptions to the rule: Check out the Blue :)
Artector 02-14-07, 04:24 PM	Well, there ARE exceptions to the rule: Check out the Blue :) I'd have to check to be sure, but I'd bet the Blue has the elite array that's equal to the 25 point buy. And the reason he has it is because he has a level of Psion, instead of Warrior, or racial HD. Run your games how you want, remove the feat requirment or don't. I think the class is fine without needing to burn a feat, you're gonna have to be A) a psionic race, B) to burn the feat anyways C) Multi-class
The_Shaman 02-17-07, 08:40 PM	Look, feat prerequisites are there for a reason. You can't just start dropping them just because you feel like it. Fist of Zuoken requires Wild Talent. That applies if you're non-psionic, if you're a psionic race, or if you have 50 levels of psion. Oh, they're there for a reason, definitely. But does the reason have to be to make the feat choices crappy? Well, in this case, half the PrCs fail - many monk and caster PrCs, for example. Instead, I have another idea. I say that since PrCs are generally specialists, the feats and skills required are supposed to show that the characters have indeed specialized in a given field - the field that you're working on. In other words, that feats are there for a good reason. Thaumaturge doesn't require SF (conjuration) because it's poor, but because you're working with summoning magic. Duelist is a PrC for fighters (there weren't any swashies then) who were particularly nimble and quick, hence its prerequisites, etc, etc. If you adhere to this notion (and I've seen no official reason why not to) then allowing psionic races to access FoZ without Wild Talent makes perfect sense. They already have the talent the feat is supposed to represent. It's like saying a dwarf who wants to be an EWM for the urgrosh has to burn another feat in proficiency with it. It has nothing to do with being psionic, it is a crappy, throw-away feat prerequisite to discourage people from taking the class. And I don't see why that's so hard for you people to grasp. (Maybe this is why there's so much psi-hate, it's because you people don't actually listen to others.) So you say, and I say you're wrong. Care to point to an official statement saying "Well, since PrCs are that good, we wanted to make your life hell if you wanted to choose it?" I haven't seen it, and I seriously doubt it's true. There's also the matter that not all PrCs are as strong as, or even equal to, the core classes... and that you are already committing some resources by any skills and feats investment.
kelvinaw273 02-19-07, 02:24 PM	Waive it. It is so flaming obvious that what they worded in the Zerth Cenobite is what they intended in the Fist of Zuoken. In fact the FoZ is (I think) in the SRD as the Psionic Fist and the requirement there is Wild Talent OR Naturally Psionic, not both.
Bacris 02-19-07, 02:27 PM	and the requirement there is Wild Talent OR Naturally Psionic, not both. I'm afraid the SRD still has Wild Talent only.
Amaril 02-24-07, 01:49 PM	This topic has come up on numerous occasions. Customer Service has officially indicated that being a psionic race (read: naturally psionic) qualifies for the Wild Talent requirement. The origin of the Wild Talent requirement is one of flavor; Zuoken is a deity of a human culture known as the Bakluni in the World of Greyhawk campaign setting. This culture is known for monk and psionic studies among their people. Thus it is assumed that humans are the primary candidates for the prestige class in question.