Fixing the Lurk class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fixing the Lurk class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Atsettam
01-16-08, 05:37 PM I've made the following changes in hopes of making the Lurk class more presentable.

Evasion (Ex):
As written, add the following at the end: “A helpless lurk does not gain the benefit of evasion”.

Psionic Improved Evasion (Ex):
At 14th level, a lurk’s evasion ability improves. As long as the lurk retains her psionic focus, she takes only half damage on a failed save. If the lurk loses her psionic focus, this ability reverts to evasion. A helpless lurk does not gain the benefit of psionic improved evasion.

Death Attack:
At 20th level, a lurk can use the signature ability of assassins. If a lurk studies her victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (lurk’s choice).
While studying the victim, the lurk can undertake other actions so long as her attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the lurk or recognize the lurk as an enemy. The lurk may not use augments during the 3 rounds of study.
If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ the lurk’s class level + the lurk’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, he dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the lurk.
If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the lurk has completed the 3 rounds of study, she must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.
If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes his save) or if the lurk does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before she can attempt another death attack.
(DC 10 + ½ the required lurk level + the lurk’s Int modifier)

Reach Attack:
The lurk’s next melee weapon based attack has its range extended by 5ft. The weapon is considered a reach weapon and cannot attack foes adjacent to the lurk. For every 2 power points spent, the distance increases by 5ft. This ability does not stack with the Extend Reach power. Minimum level 8th.

Aligned Attack & Planar Attack:
As written, add this after last sentence: “The lurk may choose to target the ethical axis upon gaining this ability. This choice cannot be changed afterwards without DM approval”.

From Hyperconscious and Untapped Potential.

1st-Level Lurk Powers

Aver*: You gain a +2 bonus on your Bluff check.
Blinding: Flash*: Sudden burst of light dazzles opponents.
Bound*: You gain a +2 bonus on your Jump check.
Chrysalis*: You gain damage reduction 1/-.
Circumstance Shield*: You gain a +2 insight bonus on Reflex saves.
Clot: You resist bleeding.
Psychic Tracking*: Follow a creature’s mental echoes.
Resistance, Psionic*: You gain a +2 resistance bonus on saves for one minute/level.
Unearthly Terror*: Terrify an enemy with sustained images.

2nd-Level Lurk Powers

Alloyed Hide*: You gain damage reduction 5/bludgeoning (or DR 5/+2).
Everyman*: You appear more average, blending into crowds.

3rd-Level Lurk Powers

Physical Acceleration*: You move faster, gaining a +1 bonus on attacks, AC, and Reflex saves.
Steal Item*: Distant or tended objects appear in your grasp.

4th-Level Lurk Powers

Intellect Feast*: Ephemeral tentacles drain opponent’s Intelligence and you become smarter.
Sensorineural Cascade*: You overwhelm sensory systems of targets for 1 round per level.

5th-Level Lurk Powers

Leech Known Power*: You steal powers from another’s mind.

6th Level Lurk Powers

Brutalize Wounds: You target takes more damage than normal from wounds.
Probability Mantle*: You gain partial concealment and can reroll once.

*Augmentable
Atsettam
01-16-08, 05:38 PM Psionic Improved Evasion

I added it because when I was compiling information about the lurk one poster made the comment that level 13 was "the weakest of the entire class". I took that claim at face value since my own experience is lacking.

This ability existed prior in a lurk variant at level 14. I did not change it to the standard version because it was supposed to replace an available augment.

I did not place it at level 13 because then this class would go from having evasion to improved evasion faster than any class I'm aware of.

Death Attack

I added Death Attack for two reasons.
1) The class does not have capstone ability.
2) As a Psychic "assassin" it did not seem right for it to not Death Attack.

I got the idea for the DC from a post by Zemlya. I did not put it at the usual DC because with augmentation the DC can reach over 30 at level 20.

Augments

I made reach attack how one would expect it to appear, if any one has a better idea i be glad to here it (seriously).

I made the addition to Aligned Attack and Planar Attack because I hate to see Law and Chaos get shafted.
rilem
01-16-08, 06:14 PM I like the added powers. Death Attack is pointless at level 20 -- it's a weak ability at level 10. But it certainly doesn't hurt and won't be unbalancing.

Note that the FAQ removed the Reach Attack augment -- they don't get it anymore. But yours makes sense.

Personally, I think 1st level is the weakest of the class. They have low HP, almost no psionic ability, no BAB, no trapfinding and can't use one of their two augments (Additional Sneak Attack).
Atsettam
01-16-08, 08:54 PM I like the added powers. Death Attack is pointless at level 20 -- it's a weak ability at level 10. But it certainly doesn't hurt and won't be unbalancing.

Note that the FAQ removed the Reach Attack augment -- they don't get it anymore. But yours makes sense.

Personally, I think 1st level is the weakest of the class. They have low HP, almost no psionic ability, no BAB, no trapfinding and can't use one of their two augments (Additional Sneak Attack).

^Thank you for your comments

My guess is that the FAQ referred to in that comment was the Sage because i did find an Ask Wizards entry that removed Reach Attack.

The most common concern I see is the lack of Trapfinding, Search, and Disable Device. Is it poor planning that they're not already there or is it a balance issue?
rilem
01-16-08, 10:21 PM It's a poorly designed class, basically. I can see it not having trapfinding/trap skills (not for balance purposes, but flavor) but it should have a better HD in that case. There really aren't any skill-oriented PCs with d6 HD and only 4 pts/level in 3.5 -- the Lurk, as is, seems balanced as a 3.0 PC.
The_Mess
01-16-08, 10:57 PM Personally, I think 1st level is the weakest of the class. They have low HP, almost no psionic ability, no BAB, no trapfinding and can't use one of their two augments (Additional Sneak Attack).

And their other augment is something they'll get almost no use out of unless it's a high-psionics game. Most DMs are going to keep your first level characters wading through non-psionic kobolds and giant rats.

I think they have probably the weakest first level of any class in the game.

Current class ranking on the Great Class Ranking Thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=968062) is 4.79, so it's regarded as fairly well balanced overall, though.
Atsettam
01-16-08, 11:06 PM So is the written Lurk a lost cause (needs a complete revision), or does it just need some editing?
rilem
01-16-08, 11:18 PM One more problem: Lurks have the same # of Power Points as a Psywar, but they have to spend them on both Augments and Powers.
Atsettam
01-16-08, 11:25 PM One more problem: Lurks have the same # of Power Points as a Psywar, but they have to spend them on both Augments and Powers.

Does that merit a higher Power Point total or is that a "balance" factor?
rilem
01-17-08, 09:43 AM I'm much better at pointing out the problems with classes than actually fixing them. :)

And I haven't actually seen a Lurk in play -- I'm hoping to run one myself before 4.0 kicks in.

I think either more pp or a better base save mechanic for augments (either 10+ 1/2 Lurk level + mod or keyed off of Augment level (i.e. 10 + 3 + mod for Mental Assault, as that's a 5th level Augment) would be needed.

Also either d8 Hit Die or 6 pts./level, to bring them into line with other 3.5 skill-based classes.
Eikre
01-17-08, 04:45 PM The lurk can use her sneak attack at level one.

Additional Sneak Attack:The lurk's next attack deals an extra 1d6 points of damage from a sneak attack.

Activate it, and get your sneak attack damage. Yes, you can also augment it for more, but you don't have to.

For every 2 power points spend, this damage increases by 1d6 points.

That means, at level 2, you can augment an attack with 2d6 sneak attack damage. 1d6 from the augment's baseline, and 1d6 more from paying two power points.

What am I missing?
rilem
01-17-08, 05:19 PM The lurk can use her sneak attack at level one.

No, she can't. From the Rules Faq:

Q:

Does the additional sneak attack option available from the
1st-level lurk augment class feature (Complete Psionic, page
14) apply only if you already have the sneak attack class
feature?

Yes. That means that this option is useless to a 1st-level
lurk (but becomes quite useful at 2nd level, when the lurk gains
psionic sneak attack.

The FAQ has been very unfriendly to Lurks.
The_Mess
01-18-08, 02:52 AM But... if some DM were to, say, I don't know, ignore that part of the FAQ...

Come on, it's not like it would turn the first-level Lurk into some ultra powerhouse. That's Incarnates.
AskaniPsion
01-19-08, 08:32 AM I was going to make a Lurk as my new character but they really do suffer.

Most of the augments are awful - the D/Cs are sooooo low. The very low power points they get are really not worth using on an augment. Not being able to use Additional Sneak augment at 1st is just silly.

Evasion they don't get until higher levels.

They get a nice skill choice but only 4 skill/level - they really should have gotten 6 skill/level.

They have decent power selection though.

I actually like the Thief variant version better than the regular but they lack the Disable skill but a nice DM would simply add that for you. At least you get Uncanny Dodge too.

I love the flavor of the Lurk but the class's abilities just seems .....lacking. I decided to go with a Psion.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Atsettam 01-16-08, 05:37 PM	I've made the following changes in hopes of making the Lurk class more presentable. Evasion (Ex): As written, add the following at the end: “A helpless lurk does not gain the benefit of evasion”. Psionic Improved Evasion (Ex): At 14th level, a lurk’s evasion ability improves. As long as the lurk retains her psionic focus, she takes only half damage on a failed save. If the lurk loses her psionic focus, this ability reverts to evasion. A helpless lurk does not gain the benefit of psionic improved evasion. Death Attack: At 20th level, a lurk can use the signature ability of assassins. If a lurk studies her victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (lurk’s choice). While studying the victim, the lurk can undertake other actions so long as her attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the lurk or recognize the lurk as an enemy. The lurk may not use augments during the 3 rounds of study. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ the lurk’s class level + the lurk’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, he dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the lurk. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the lurk has completed the 3 rounds of study, she must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds. If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes his save) or if the lurk does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before she can attempt another death attack. (DC 10 + ½ the required lurk level + the lurk’s Int modifier) Reach Attack: The lurk’s next melee weapon based attack has its range extended by 5ft. The weapon is considered a reach weapon and cannot attack foes adjacent to the lurk. For every 2 power points spent, the distance increases by 5ft. This ability does not stack with the Extend Reach power. Minimum level 8th. Aligned Attack & Planar Attack: As written, add this after last sentence: “The lurk may choose to target the ethical axis upon gaining this ability. This choice cannot be changed afterwards without DM approval”. From Hyperconscious and Untapped Potential. 1st-Level Lurk Powers Aver: You gain a +2 bonus on your Bluff check. Blinding: Flash: Sudden burst of light dazzles opponents. Bound: You gain a +2 bonus on your Jump check. Chrysalis: You gain damage reduction 1/-. Circumstance Shield: You gain a +2 insight bonus on Reflex saves. Clot: You resist bleeding. Psychic Tracking: Follow a creature’s mental echoes. Resistance, Psionic: You gain a +2 resistance bonus on saves for one minute/level. Unearthly Terror: Terrify an enemy with sustained images. 2nd-Level Lurk Powers Alloyed Hide: You gain damage reduction 5/bludgeoning (or DR 5/+2). Everyman: You appear more average, blending into crowds. 3rd-Level Lurk Powers Physical Acceleration: You move faster, gaining a +1 bonus on attacks, AC, and Reflex saves. Steal Item: Distant or tended objects appear in your grasp. 4th-Level Lurk Powers Intellect Feast: Ephemeral tentacles drain opponent’s Intelligence and you become smarter. Sensorineural Cascade: You overwhelm sensory systems of targets for 1 round per level. 5th-Level Lurk Powers Leech Known Power: You steal powers from another’s mind. 6th Level Lurk Powers Brutalize Wounds: You target takes more damage than normal from wounds. Probability Mantle: You gain partial concealment and can reroll once. *Augmentable
Atsettam 01-16-08, 05:38 PM	Psionic Improved Evasion I added it because when I was compiling information about the lurk one poster made the comment that level 13 was "the weakest of the entire class". I took that claim at face value since my own experience is lacking. This ability existed prior in a lurk variant at level 14. I did not change it to the standard version because it was supposed to replace an available augment. I did not place it at level 13 because then this class would go from having evasion to improved evasion faster than any class I'm aware of. Death Attack I added Death Attack for two reasons. 1) The class does not have capstone ability. 2) As a Psychic "assassin" it did not seem right for it to not Death Attack. I got the idea for the DC from a post by Zemlya. I did not put it at the usual DC because with augmentation the DC can reach over 30 at level 20. Augments I made reach attack how one would expect it to appear, if any one has a better idea i be glad to here it (seriously). I made the addition to Aligned Attack and Planar Attack because I hate to see Law and Chaos get shafted.
rilem 01-16-08, 06:14 PM	I like the added powers. Death Attack is pointless at level 20 -- it's a weak ability at level 10. But it certainly doesn't hurt and won't be unbalancing. Note that the FAQ removed the Reach Attack augment -- they don't get it anymore. But yours makes sense. Personally, I think 1st level is the weakest of the class. They have low HP, almost no psionic ability, no BAB, no trapfinding and can't use one of their two augments (Additional Sneak Attack).
Atsettam 01-16-08, 08:54 PM	I like the added powers. Death Attack is pointless at level 20 -- it's a weak ability at level 10. But it certainly doesn't hurt and won't be unbalancing. Note that the FAQ removed the Reach Attack augment -- they don't get it anymore. But yours makes sense. Personally, I think 1st level is the weakest of the class. They have low HP, almost no psionic ability, no BAB, no trapfinding and can't use one of their two augments (Additional Sneak Attack). ^Thank you for your comments My guess is that the FAQ referred to in that comment was the Sage because i did find an Ask Wizards entry that removed Reach Attack. The most common concern I see is the lack of Trapfinding, Search, and Disable Device. Is it poor planning that they're not already there or is it a balance issue?
rilem 01-16-08, 10:21 PM	It's a poorly designed class, basically. I can see it not having trapfinding/trap skills (not for balance purposes, but flavor) but it should have a better HD in that case. There really aren't any skill-oriented PCs with d6 HD and only 4 pts/level in 3.5 -- the Lurk, as is, seems balanced as a 3.0 PC.
The_Mess 01-16-08, 10:57 PM	Personally, I think 1st level is the weakest of the class. They have low HP, almost no psionic ability, no BAB, no trapfinding and can't use one of their two augments (Additional Sneak Attack). And their other augment is something they'll get almost no use out of unless it's a high-psionics game. Most DMs are going to keep your first level characters wading through non-psionic kobolds and giant rats. I think they have probably the weakest first level of any class in the game. Current class ranking on the Great Class Ranking Thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=968062) is 4.79, so it's regarded as fairly well balanced overall, though.
Atsettam 01-16-08, 11:06 PM	So is the written Lurk a lost cause (needs a complete revision), or does it just need some editing?
rilem 01-16-08, 11:18 PM	One more problem: Lurks have the same # of Power Points as a Psywar, but they have to spend them on both Augments and Powers.
Atsettam 01-16-08, 11:25 PM	One more problem: Lurks have the same # of Power Points as a Psywar, but they have to spend them on both Augments and Powers. Does that merit a higher Power Point total or is that a "balance" factor?
rilem 01-17-08, 09:43 AM	I'm much better at pointing out the problems with classes than actually fixing them. :) And I haven't actually seen a Lurk in play -- I'm hoping to run one myself before 4.0 kicks in. I think either more pp or a better base save mechanic for augments (either 10+ 1/2 Lurk level + mod or keyed off of Augment level (i.e. 10 + 3 + mod for Mental Assault, as that's a 5th level Augment) would be needed. Also either d8 Hit Die or 6 pts./level, to bring them into line with other 3.5 skill-based classes.
Eikre 01-17-08, 04:45 PM	The lurk can use her sneak attack at level one. Additional Sneak Attack:The lurk's next attack deals an extra 1d6 points of damage from a sneak attack. Activate it, and get your sneak attack damage. Yes, you can also augment it for more, but you don't have to. For every 2 power points spend, this damage increases by 1d6 points. That means, at level 2, you can augment an attack with 2d6 sneak attack damage. 1d6 from the augment's baseline, and 1d6 more from paying two power points. What am I missing?
rilem 01-17-08, 05:19 PM	The lurk can use her sneak attack at level one. No, she can't. From the Rules Faq: Q: Does the additional sneak attack option available from the 1st-level lurk augment class feature (Complete Psionic, page 14) apply only if you already have the sneak attack class feature? Yes. That means that this option is useless to a 1st-level lurk (but becomes quite useful at 2nd level, when the lurk gains psionic sneak attack. The FAQ has been very unfriendly to Lurks.
The_Mess 01-18-08, 02:52 AM	But... if some DM were to, say, I don't know, ignore that part of the FAQ... Come on, it's not like it would turn the first-level Lurk into some ultra powerhouse. That's Incarnates.
AskaniPsion 01-19-08, 08:32 AM	I was going to make a Lurk as my new character but they really do suffer. Most of the augments are awful - the D/Cs are sooooo low. The very low power points they get are really not worth using on an augment. Not being able to use Additional Sneak augment at 1st is just silly. Evasion they don't get until higher levels. They get a nice skill choice but only 4 skill/level - they really should have gotten 6 skill/level. They have decent power selection though. I actually like the Thief variant version better than the regular but they lack the Disable skill but a nice DM would simply add that for you. At least you get Uncanny Dodge too. I love the flavor of the Lurk but the class's abilities just seems .....lacking. I decided to go with a Psion.