Fixing the soul knife [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fixing the soul knife [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lokenarin
12-02-07, 01:17 AM All seem to agree that the soul knife is underpowered.
What can be done to boost the soul knife to make it on par with other characters?

boost attack range, hp, skills, saves, abilities, feats...just some suggestions.
thanks
heavenisme
12-02-07, 01:20 AM Nuf said:

Ultimate Mentalist (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=690469)
TheKeyofE
12-02-07, 02:02 AM Start here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=9810851) Lots of fixes by other people, might give you ideas for a personal fix that works for you.

As far as the "best" way to fix it, there's never been a concensus, although a lot of people (myself included) think that BlaineTog's fix goes in a good direction.
JimProfit
12-02-07, 02:47 AM I'd make a couple of homebrew feats for possibilities of fighting.

Mindbow [General]
Prequsite: Mindblade
You can use your mindblade to instead make a weapon that simulates a longbow. (1d8 damage, 19-20 x2) You can form one arrow per attack round.

Multiple Mindbolts [General]
Prequisite: Mindbow
You can shoot multiple bolts at the same time, per attack round you make an additional 1d4 bolts.

Mind Whip
Prequisite: Mindblade
You can make your mindblade into a a whip like weapon, unlike a normal whip, this weapon deals 1d4 damage, critical 20 x2, reach 10ft, and has a +2 bonus on trip and disarm attempts.

As well, soulknives gain full BaB, all good saving throws, and hit die d12.
Sagetim
12-04-07, 03:04 AM All seem to agree that the soul knife is underpowered.
What can be done to boost the soul knife to make it on par with other characters?

boost attack range, hp, skills, saves, abilities, feats...just some suggestions.
thanks

Actually, it's not underpowered in the least. I've been playing a level 3 soulknife for a few sessions now (just got to level 4) and my character has racked up a handful of one hit kills. He killed an assassin with a one hit kill using psionic shot, psychic strike and throw mindblade. Soulknives are NOT underpowered. You just have to know how to use them.
hogarth
12-04-07, 06:52 AM My simple house rule is to give it full BAB, medium armor proficiency and martial weapon proficiency. I still haven't had anyone who wants to play one, though. :)
Bacris
12-04-07, 10:31 AM Actually, it's not underpowered in the least. I've been playing a level 3 soulknife for a few sessions now (just got to level 4) and my character has racked up a handful of one hit kills. He killed an assassin with a one hit kill using psionic shot, psychic strike and throw mindblade. Soulknives are NOT underpowered. You just have to know how to use them.

Or until you start fighting enemies immune to mind-affecting effects, which completely trivializes psychic strike. :)

There are numerous posts why, overall, soulknives are on the low end of the power curve. They're not horrible, but neither are they great.
TheKeyofE
12-04-07, 11:38 AM There are numerous posts why, overall, soulknives are on the low end of the power curve. They're not horrible, but neither are they great.

About like a single-classed Fighter.
The_Mess
12-04-07, 01:36 PM In my not noticeably humble opinion, the Soulknife has the same problems as the Monk: too many of its abilities are built around giving it what other characters get automatically, and doesn't get them as well.

Soulknife: "I can bring forth a magic weapon from the depths of my mind!"

Fighter: "I can draw my magic weapon."

Soulknife: "Er... yes, well, I can change the enchantment on my magic blade with a mere eight hours of concentration!"

Fighter: "I can draw a different magic weapon with a move action. Or I could take quickdraw, of course. I have feats to burn."

Souknife: "I can take a feat to get a shield!"

Fighter: "I can pick up a shield."

Soulknife: "But... but... I can add extra damage..."

Fighter: "Did I mention I have feats to burn? And my armor selection is better."

Rogue: "My extra damage progression is better, and I can do it multiple times in a round!"

Soulknife: *weeps*

Not that soulknives don't have their advantages (just wait until the party is captured and stripped of equipment!), and they're swimming in a vast ocean of conceptual cool (I can cut you with my brain!), but at the end of the day, they're a fighter with bad armor, BAB, and HD and without feats, or a rogue who can't hide well or open things and with a lower bonus damage that they can use less often.

Won't stop me from playing one, though. Did I mention I can cut you with my brain? :-)
Avatar of Kokusho
12-04-07, 01:56 PM I'm currently playing a soulknife 5/soulbow 5, and I find it to be decent. Our party did in fact get stripped of all its equipment, and I definitely have to say that it didn't affect me very much.

Of course, the other two party members are a rogue/spellthief and a dread necromancer, so maybe that isn't saying a lot....
CrimsonDeath
12-04-07, 02:15 PM but at the end of the day, they're a fighter with bad armor, BAB, and HD and without feats, or a rogue who can't hide well or open things and with a lower bonus damage that they can use less often.

Soulknives have the same HD as the Fighter, actually (and contrary to the conversation you posted, they are proficient with shields).

They can also Hide and Move Silently just fine (those are class skills), if they invest the skill points. (Although Soulknives to have enough useful class skills that there's a definite tradeoff when you decide to specialize.)

In general, though, you're pretty much right.
InkBlot
12-04-07, 03:27 PM I'm pretty sure The Mess was refering to the feat which allows a soulknife to create a mindshield (like a mindblade, but it's a shield).

The feat is in Races Of Eberron, IIRC.
The_Mess
12-04-07, 04:31 PM Well, that will teach me to go by memory. Well, okay, it probably won't. Never has before, in fact. : - )

Yes, I was thinking of the mind-shield feat.
CrimsonDeath
12-04-07, 07:17 PM Well, that will teach me to go by memory. Well, okay, it probably won't. Never has before, in fact. : - )

Yes, I was thinking of the mind-shield feat.

You got the point across though: The Soulknife is a very confused class that comes very close to doing a number of things adequately but doesn't really do anything very well.
Sagetim
12-04-07, 10:59 PM Or until you start fighting enemies immune to mind-affecting effects, which completely trivializes psychic strike. :)

There are numerous posts why, overall, soulknives are on the low end of the power curve. They're not horrible, but neither are they great.

actually I've had to fight undead on a regular basis. There is a large number of undead in the campaign. And so far I haven't had any more troubles than I would have as a normal fighter.

also, since when is a d10 a BAD hit die? good god, what the hell kind of standards are YOU playing with? Ones where a Fighter gets a d20 and a barb gets 2d12 per level or something?

and since when doesn't a soulknife do things well? my guy's feats are all cued towards throwing his mindblade (and later soulbow shots) but he managed to melee just fine. In the fights so far the rogue and soulknife are the two getting the most kills.

As well, the conversation could easily go like this:

Fighter," I can use any weapon, armor, or shield. I'm a master of the longsword, and I can wade through groups of foes hacking them down in a matter of seconds."

Mage, " I wield arcane forces that can easily kill normal people. And those who aren't normal get a fireball up the ass."

Rogue, " I can sneak past the weaklings and delivering crippling blows using poison and daggers and stealth."

Cleric," I COULD call down divine smiting power if these guys didn't keep using me to heal their damn wounds. They need to learn how to NOT get hit. *depressed sigh*"

Soulknife, " I can one hit kill the boss of the foes you're wading through within the first six seconds of combat. If the need arises, I can sneak just as well as the rogue, and if I go with them we can cut down any leader within a matter of moments between their precision and my mind obliterating bastard sword. Did I mention that I never have to pay for a weapon? that means I can spend my money on more important things, like better armor, items to enhance my abilities, or maybe a nice mansion in the middle of the expensive district in town. The amount you spend on four or five different weapons can easily pay for a house and still have money to spare. I can't heal wounds, but I can kill a foe before they can get close enough to hit me with a melee weapon. And though I can't explode a group with a fireball, I can shatter my mind blade into a storm of death."

to put it simply: the soulknife can stealth, they can melee, and they can do mid ranged combat just fine. Most of your fights aren't going to be sniping across a chasm, so that's just fine. The soulknife will never be unarmed unless they want to be. And they have a strong enough will to be adequate at killing mages. They might not fare too well against real death spells (that only give fort saves) but unlike most fighters, they aren't likely to be charmed, dominated, or held. They are like a rogue who can actually melee.
Bacris
12-04-07, 11:31 PM Hey, if you're happy with your soulknife, more power to you. I just hope you aren't applying psychic strike to the undead, since they're immune :)

But, he's a stealthy character without trapfinding, a melee character without full BAB, and a skill monkey with only 4 skill points per level.

Or, I can just let the old thread say it better than I could: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-331526

Unfortunately the, 'I am better than everyone in an anitmagic field' niche is just not useful enough to make it a viable place to sit. To some degree many other classes can also work very well within the field, all they lose out on that the soulknife does not is his weapon, which he might still lose there anyway. Several class abilities + feats + whatever vs the weapon and the vast majority of the time I would rather have the abilities. Especially since DR for material type and damage type still work in antimagic fields, and the soulknife has no real way to bypass those.

The soulknifes list of abilities is very small. So, customization, while possible, is also very limited. Several abilities on the list dont really even 'do' much of anything for the soulknife. (defending is a very weak choice, lucky is a 1/day ability, mighty cleaving has the massive drawbacks of cleave, vicious cuts into hp very quickly for a class that cannot heal, mindfeeder is 1/day and this class doesnt even use pp for anything)

He can change what he has on after 8 hours of meditation, but before level 10 he doesnt even have access to much shifting at all and before level 14 there really isnt much more.

The soulknife is incredibly specialized to begin with and enemies that know about soulknifes know pretty much exactly what to expect, they only do one thing. They dont even do it particularly well, especially not as well as a pure specialist should be doing.

Neat tricks? sure. Decent hp, saves, and skills are the only redeeming feature of this class. They are not a powerhouse in combat and are limited in scope. The skills they have put them up as a secondary scout/evader but not much else. The hp and saves actually allow them to do a few things here and there without a huge amount of worry, but it is only roughly on par for most fighter types anyway.

They are overspecialized, do not excel at anything, and any job they could do could be done better by someone else. Except maybe working in an antimagic field (debateable as well, as I said above with feats and class features that still operate in the field).

In most parties they just wouldnt have a role unless something was specifically designed with them in mind. In the basic 4 person party (fighter type, cleric, wizard, rogue) it would in general be better to 'not' change out any of them for the soulknife. In a more nonstandard party maybe there will be some strange sort of niche for them, but then its weakness will hinder the rest of the party.

Most any special DR's he cannot bypass, his damage tends to not be as high as any other fighter types, he cannot grapple nearly as well as other fighter types, he has a small list of abilities for his weapon (although he can change them) which limits his versitility for broader tasks, and so on.

Effectively, and hopefully to sum up, he has no place in a normal party in a normal campaign. If it is some strange world full of creatures without special DR's, lots of antimagic fields, and a serious lack of options for what someone can get on weapons then he will look attractive. Otherwise it just isnt worth it.

Love the flavor, hate the massive restrictions (which are even worse than a spellcasters multiclassing restrictions).
CrimsonDeath
12-04-07, 11:46 PM also, since when is a d10 a BAD hit die?
Probably since he forgot that's the HD the Soulknife gets.
The_Mess
12-05-07, 01:39 AM Yeah, I thought they got a d8/level. My brain has holes in it. Things leak out. You can hear them rattling around in my head if I nod.
heavenisme
12-05-07, 05:02 AM Soulknife & Prc soulbow are just a bit lacking... The ultimate mentalist looks very very fun.
Fatalis_902
12-05-07, 09:49 PM The real problem with the soulknife as was mentioned above is that they fall into the trap of, "Everything you can do someone else can do better." Heck, even the free powerful weapon bit pales in comparison to the psychic warrior's soulbound weapon alternative class feature. One bonus feat, and one power, to be able to emulate a soulknife better than the soulknife? Plus, I still get my other powers and feats? Sign me up, at least from an ptimization stand point. Flavor-wise, the soulknife rules, but it has no crunch. I still love the class, and when combined with soulbow and the bonus feats alt. class feature from Mind's Eye, it gets better, but it still is weak. It needed help, and CompPsi failed to deliver. It gave some, the Mind's Eye gave more, but they didn't give enough.
Enchanter_Tom
12-06-07, 07:04 PM http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?referrerid=406019&t=882451

There's your fix.

If you don't like it, a good place to start would be playing a fighter and saying that he has a mindblade.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lokenarin 12-02-07, 01:17 AM	All seem to agree that the soul knife is underpowered. What can be done to boost the soul knife to make it on par with other characters? boost attack range, hp, skills, saves, abilities, feats...just some suggestions. thanks
heavenisme 12-02-07, 01:20 AM	Nuf said: Ultimate Mentalist (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=690469)
TheKeyofE 12-02-07, 02:02 AM	Start here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=9810851) Lots of fixes by other people, might give you ideas for a personal fix that works for you. As far as the "best" way to fix it, there's never been a concensus, although a lot of people (myself included) think that BlaineTog's fix goes in a good direction.
JimProfit 12-02-07, 02:47 AM	I'd make a couple of homebrew feats for possibilities of fighting. Mindbow [General] Prequsite: Mindblade You can use your mindblade to instead make a weapon that simulates a longbow. (1d8 damage, 19-20 x2) You can form one arrow per attack round. Multiple Mindbolts [General] Prequisite: Mindbow You can shoot multiple bolts at the same time, per attack round you make an additional 1d4 bolts. Mind Whip Prequisite: Mindblade You can make your mindblade into a a whip like weapon, unlike a normal whip, this weapon deals 1d4 damage, critical 20 x2, reach 10ft, and has a +2 bonus on trip and disarm attempts. As well, soulknives gain full BaB, all good saving throws, and hit die d12.
Sagetim 12-04-07, 03:04 AM	All seem to agree that the soul knife is underpowered. What can be done to boost the soul knife to make it on par with other characters? boost attack range, hp, skills, saves, abilities, feats...just some suggestions. thanks Actually, it's not underpowered in the least. I've been playing a level 3 soulknife for a few sessions now (just got to level 4) and my character has racked up a handful of one hit kills. He killed an assassin with a one hit kill using psionic shot, psychic strike and throw mindblade. Soulknives are NOT underpowered. You just have to know how to use them.
hogarth 12-04-07, 06:52 AM	My simple house rule is to give it full BAB, medium armor proficiency and martial weapon proficiency. I still haven't had anyone who wants to play one, though. :)
Bacris 12-04-07, 10:31 AM	Actually, it's not underpowered in the least. I've been playing a level 3 soulknife for a few sessions now (just got to level 4) and my character has racked up a handful of one hit kills. He killed an assassin with a one hit kill using psionic shot, psychic strike and throw mindblade. Soulknives are NOT underpowered. You just have to know how to use them. Or until you start fighting enemies immune to mind-affecting effects, which completely trivializes psychic strike. :) There are numerous posts why, overall, soulknives are on the low end of the power curve. They're not horrible, but neither are they great.
TheKeyofE 12-04-07, 11:38 AM	There are numerous posts why, overall, soulknives are on the low end of the power curve. They're not horrible, but neither are they great. About like a single-classed Fighter.
The_Mess 12-04-07, 01:36 PM	In my not noticeably humble opinion, the Soulknife has the same problems as the Monk: too many of its abilities are built around giving it what other characters get automatically, and doesn't get them as well. Soulknife: "I can bring forth a magic weapon from the depths of my mind!" Fighter: "I can draw my magic weapon." Soulknife: "Er... yes, well, I can change the enchantment on my magic blade with a mere eight hours of concentration!" Fighter: "I can draw a different magic weapon with a move action. Or I could take quickdraw, of course. I have feats to burn." Souknife: "I can take a feat to get a shield!" Fighter: "I can pick up a shield." Soulknife: "But... but... I can add extra damage..." Fighter: "Did I mention I have feats to burn? And my armor selection is better." Rogue: "My extra damage progression is better, and I can do it multiple times in a round!" Soulknife: weeps Not that soulknives don't have their advantages (just wait until the party is captured and stripped of equipment!), and they're swimming in a vast ocean of conceptual cool (I can cut you with my brain!), but at the end of the day, they're a fighter with bad armor, BAB, and HD and without feats, or a rogue who can't hide well or open things and with a lower bonus damage that they can use less often. Won't stop me from playing one, though. Did I mention I can cut you with my brain? :-)
Avatar of Kokusho 12-04-07, 01:56 PM	I'm currently playing a soulknife 5/soulbow 5, and I find it to be decent. Our party did in fact get stripped of all its equipment, and I definitely have to say that it didn't affect me very much. Of course, the other two party members are a rogue/spellthief and a dread necromancer, so maybe that isn't saying a lot....
CrimsonDeath 12-04-07, 02:15 PM	but at the end of the day, they're a fighter with bad armor, BAB, and HD and without feats, or a rogue who can't hide well or open things and with a lower bonus damage that they can use less often. Soulknives have the same HD as the Fighter, actually (and contrary to the conversation you posted, they are proficient with shields). They can also Hide and Move Silently just fine (those are class skills), if they invest the skill points. (Although Soulknives to have enough useful class skills that there's a definite tradeoff when you decide to specialize.) In general, though, you're pretty much right.
InkBlot 12-04-07, 03:27 PM	I'm pretty sure The Mess was refering to the feat which allows a soulknife to create a mindshield (like a mindblade, but it's a shield). The feat is in Races Of Eberron, IIRC.
The_Mess 12-04-07, 04:31 PM	Well, that will teach me to go by memory. Well, okay, it probably won't. Never has before, in fact. : - ) Yes, I was thinking of the mind-shield feat.
CrimsonDeath 12-04-07, 07:17 PM	Well, that will teach me to go by memory. Well, okay, it probably won't. Never has before, in fact. : - ) Yes, I was thinking of the mind-shield feat. You got the point across though: The Soulknife is a very confused class that comes very close to doing a number of things adequately but doesn't really do anything very well.
Sagetim 12-04-07, 10:59 PM	Or until you start fighting enemies immune to mind-affecting effects, which completely trivializes psychic strike. :) There are numerous posts why, overall, soulknives are on the low end of the power curve. They're not horrible, but neither are they great. actually I've had to fight undead on a regular basis. There is a large number of undead in the campaign. And so far I haven't had any more troubles than I would have as a normal fighter. also, since when is a d10 a BAD hit die? good god, what the hell kind of standards are YOU playing with? Ones where a Fighter gets a d20 and a barb gets 2d12 per level or something? and since when doesn't a soulknife do things well? my guy's feats are all cued towards throwing his mindblade (and later soulbow shots) but he managed to melee just fine. In the fights so far the rogue and soulknife are the two getting the most kills. As well, the conversation could easily go like this: Fighter," I can use any weapon, armor, or shield. I'm a master of the longsword, and I can wade through groups of foes hacking them down in a matter of seconds." Mage, " I wield arcane forces that can easily kill normal people. And those who aren't normal get a fireball up the ass." Rogue, " I can sneak past the weaklings and delivering crippling blows using poison and daggers and stealth." Cleric," I COULD call down divine smiting power if these guys didn't keep using me to heal their damn wounds. They need to learn how to NOT get hit. depressed sigh" Soulknife, " I can one hit kill the boss of the foes you're wading through within the first six seconds of combat. If the need arises, I can sneak just as well as the rogue, and if I go with them we can cut down any leader within a matter of moments between their precision and my mind obliterating bastard sword. Did I mention that I never have to pay for a weapon? that means I can spend my money on more important things, like better armor, items to enhance my abilities, or maybe a nice mansion in the middle of the expensive district in town. The amount you spend on four or five different weapons can easily pay for a house and still have money to spare. I can't heal wounds, but I can kill a foe before they can get close enough to hit me with a melee weapon. And though I can't explode a group with a fireball, I can shatter my mind blade into a storm of death." to put it simply: the soulknife can stealth, they can melee, and they can do mid ranged combat just fine. Most of your fights aren't going to be sniping across a chasm, so that's just fine. The soulknife will never be unarmed unless they want to be. And they have a strong enough will to be adequate at killing mages. They might not fare too well against real death spells (that only give fort saves) but unlike most fighters, they aren't likely to be charmed, dominated, or held. They are like a rogue who can actually melee.
Bacris 12-04-07, 11:31 PM	Hey, if you're happy with your soulknife, more power to you. I just hope you aren't applying psychic strike to the undead, since they're immune :) But, he's a stealthy character without trapfinding, a melee character without full BAB, and a skill monkey with only 4 skill points per level. Or, I can just let the old thread say it better than I could: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-331526 Unfortunately the, 'I am better than everyone in an anitmagic field' niche is just not useful enough to make it a viable place to sit. To some degree many other classes can also work very well within the field, all they lose out on that the soulknife does not is his weapon, which he might still lose there anyway. Several class abilities + feats + whatever vs the weapon and the vast majority of the time I would rather have the abilities. Especially since DR for material type and damage type still work in antimagic fields, and the soulknife has no real way to bypass those. The soulknifes list of abilities is very small. So, customization, while possible, is also very limited. Several abilities on the list dont really even 'do' much of anything for the soulknife. (defending is a very weak choice, lucky is a 1/day ability, mighty cleaving has the massive drawbacks of cleave, vicious cuts into hp very quickly for a class that cannot heal, mindfeeder is 1/day and this class doesnt even use pp for anything) He can change what he has on after 8 hours of meditation, but before level 10 he doesnt even have access to much shifting at all and before level 14 there really isnt much more. The soulknife is incredibly specialized to begin with and enemies that know about soulknifes know pretty much exactly what to expect, they only do one thing. They dont even do it particularly well, especially not as well as a pure specialist should be doing. Neat tricks? sure. Decent hp, saves, and skills are the only redeeming feature of this class. They are not a powerhouse in combat and are limited in scope. The skills they have put them up as a secondary scout/evader but not much else. The hp and saves actually allow them to do a few things here and there without a huge amount of worry, but it is only roughly on par for most fighter types anyway. They are overspecialized, do not excel at anything, and any job they could do could be done better by someone else. Except maybe working in an antimagic field (debateable as well, as I said above with feats and class features that still operate in the field). In most parties they just wouldnt have a role unless something was specifically designed with them in mind. In the basic 4 person party (fighter type, cleric, wizard, rogue) it would in general be better to 'not' change out any of them for the soulknife. In a more nonstandard party maybe there will be some strange sort of niche for them, but then its weakness will hinder the rest of the party. Most any special DR's he cannot bypass, his damage tends to not be as high as any other fighter types, he cannot grapple nearly as well as other fighter types, he has a small list of abilities for his weapon (although he can change them) which limits his versitility for broader tasks, and so on. Effectively, and hopefully to sum up, he has no place in a normal party in a normal campaign. If it is some strange world full of creatures without special DR's, lots of antimagic fields, and a serious lack of options for what someone can get on weapons then he will look attractive. Otherwise it just isnt worth it. Love the flavor, hate the massive restrictions (which are even worse than a spellcasters multiclassing restrictions).
CrimsonDeath 12-04-07, 11:46 PM	also, since when is a d10 a BAD hit die? Probably since he forgot that's the HD the Soulknife gets.
The_Mess 12-05-07, 01:39 AM	Yeah, I thought they got a d8/level. My brain has holes in it. Things leak out. You can hear them rattling around in my head if I nod.
heavenisme 12-05-07, 05:02 AM	Soulknife & Prc soulbow are just a bit lacking... The ultimate mentalist looks very very fun.
Fatalis_902 12-05-07, 09:49 PM	The real problem with the soulknife as was mentioned above is that they fall into the trap of, "Everything you can do someone else can do better." Heck, even the free powerful weapon bit pales in comparison to the psychic warrior's soulbound weapon alternative class feature. One bonus feat, and one power, to be able to emulate a soulknife better than the soulknife? Plus, I still get my other powers and feats? Sign me up, at least from an ptimization stand point. Flavor-wise, the soulknife rules, but it has no crunch. I still love the class, and when combined with soulbow and the bonus feats alt. class feature from Mind's Eye, it gets better, but it still is weak. It needed help, and CompPsi failed to deliver. It gave some, the Mind's Eye gave more, but they didn't give enough.
Enchanter_Tom 12-06-07, 07:04 PM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?referrerid=406019&t=882451 There's your fix. If you don't like it, a good place to start would be playing a fighter and saying that he has a mindblade.