Flashbacks [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Flashbacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TazendrasGhost
12-23-07, 11:00 AM I thought I was over it.

I thought I had put the anger and disappointment behind me.

After all it has been a long time, everyone has to move on at some point.

And then I saw it. I was killing some time at the local gaming store this weekend, leafing through a few books to see if I was missing anything useful. I had not bought anything in a while, but I am still a source book junkie so I thought I'd check out the releases I missed.

I had made the mistake of buying books without studying them thoroughly before. One in particular had Completely cured me of that, a quickly thrown together muddle of errata, reprints and filler mixed with new material that was truly awful.

Anyway, I was looking through Complete Scoundrel and saw it.

Malconvoker... And then:

Infernal Legion...

And it all came rushing back: The attempt to destroy the distinct flavor of Psionics. The classes that are unplayable due to lack of mechanics. The prestige class that cannot be entered by the base class it was intended for.

And above all:

The Astral Construct Nerf. The nerf to my favorite Psionic power. The nerf that was done because WOTC was moving to a new paradigm, the one they did because of an in house game at WOTC where A Wilder was too effective summoning constructs.

The one where they were attempting to de-emphasize summoned creatures across the board. I'll quote Bruce Cordell:

We use a lot of psionics in in-house games, and the most abused power BY FAR was astral construct. This was most abusable by wilders who could manifest the power at a higher level if they use Wild Surge on Astral Construct and end up with a construct of a higher level than they could normally have. This borders on exploitation, but it falls into the territory of actual abuse if a wilder can get multiple too-high level constructs. It destroys the game.

But beyond that, from a game-play perspective, every summoned creature or animal companion a player brings to the table is more attention that player sucks from other players who do not have multiple creatures to control. As a game-play guiding principle, going forward as we have the opportunity, we would like to see characters with a limit of one non-character entity they can control at any one time. This way we can divide the 'spot-light' of the DM's attention more evenly among the players.
...
I said going forward, as possible, we will look to reducing the number of companions to 1--this is a goal. It is not a hard and fast rule that will be applied in all cases and for all time.

So what do I see? A new prestige class intended for Wizards and Sorcerers, one that has a class ability that doubles the number of creatures summoned with each spell. Nothing about only having one summoned creature at a time, or even one set, just a class ability that allows Wizards to spam out even more creatures at once.

So I guess what Bruce meant was that its a goal for Psionics, but not one for anyone else.

Sigh.....
InkBlot
12-23-07, 12:44 PM Summoning is being nerfed in 4e*, which they were already brainstorming for by the time CPsi was released. Such a wide ranging nerf is difficult to implement, and would probably never reach those groups without an internet connection. It would have been even more pained than the infamous polymorph errata.

I'm thinking the one-pet-per-player rule is going to be hardwired into 4e.

*My encyclopedic knowledge of D&D has not yet extended into 4e. Sorry, but the only source I can cite is "a link somewhere on the 4e forums."
The_Mess
12-23-07, 01:18 PM Well, I know they've stated they're getting rid of iterative attacks for melee combat. Getting rid of multiple creature summoning is the same logic. Invoking Hanlon's razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor), what happened is the designers of Complete Psionic got on the bandwagon too early.

I'd argue that the Wilder's over-charging Astral Construct makes it a problem that regular casters don't have, but the phrase "over-powered Wilder" causes my brain to cramp.
CrimsonDeath
12-23-07, 01:41 PM I'd argue that the Wilder's over-charging Astral Construct makes it a problem that regular casters don't have, but the phrase "over-powered Wilder" causes my brain to cramp.

Yeah, because a Druid with Ashbound, Augment Summoning, Greenbound Summoning, and Rashemi Elemental Summoning isn't a problem at all.

Oh, and don't forget that CPsi also introduced two or three new powers that are capable of summoning (literally summoning, something previously unheard-of in psionics) multiple creatures.
TazendrasGhost
12-23-07, 02:08 PM I hope they do adress this in 4, but that's not the point of my post.

The point I was trying to make is that after nerfing Astral Construct in order to de-emphasize summoning and companions, and hearing that this would be continued on in future releases, a sourcebook that came out much later actually went the other way and created a prestige class that allowed casters to spam summons even more effectively and in higher numbers.

Plus I guess I am still frustrated that the only "complete" 3.5 sourcebook to focus on psionics was such a total piece of $*it.
Tempest Stormwind
12-23-07, 03:06 PM Plus I guess I am still frustrated that the only "complete" 3.5 sourcebook to focus on psionics was such a total piece of $*it.

Which is why you go for Hyperconscious and Untapped Potential instead. The two books together cost less than CPsi, and either book on its own provides more bang than CPsi.
TazendrasGhost
12-23-07, 03:19 PM If my gaming group would accept third party material, I'd be all over that. I've seen UTP and liked it. Unfortunately I can't use it with my group, who is rarely willing to accept even Mind's Eye articles.

Fortunately Eberron gives a little psionic love so I have some new content to work with.
Tempest Stormwind
12-23-07, 03:23 PM If my gaming group would accept third party material, I'd be all over that. I've seen UTP and liked it. Unfortunately I can't use it with my group, who is rarely willing to accept even Mind's Eye articles.

Fortunately Eberron gives a little psionic love so I have some new content to work with.

Just ask 'em why they only use WotC. If it's for mechanical balance reasons, cite CoDzilla, plus the AC Nerf vs. Malconvoker example. If it's for availablility reasons, remind 'em that HC and UtP are both (almost entirely) Open Game, meaning their mechanics can show up for free.

Then remind 'em that Hyperconscious was written by the same guy as CPsi.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TazendrasGhost 12-23-07, 11:00 AM	I thought I was over it. I thought I had put the anger and disappointment behind me. After all it has been a long time, everyone has to move on at some point. And then I saw it. I was killing some time at the local gaming store this weekend, leafing through a few books to see if I was missing anything useful. I had not bought anything in a while, but I am still a source book junkie so I thought I'd check out the releases I missed. I had made the mistake of buying books without studying them thoroughly before. One in particular had Completely cured me of that, a quickly thrown together muddle of errata, reprints and filler mixed with new material that was truly awful. Anyway, I was looking through Complete Scoundrel and saw it. Malconvoker... And then: Infernal Legion... And it all came rushing back: The attempt to destroy the distinct flavor of Psionics. The classes that are unplayable due to lack of mechanics. The prestige class that cannot be entered by the base class it was intended for. And above all: The Astral Construct Nerf. The nerf to my favorite Psionic power. The nerf that was done because WOTC was moving to a new paradigm, the one they did because of an in house game at WOTC where A Wilder was too effective summoning constructs. The one where they were attempting to de-emphasize summoned creatures across the board. I'll quote Bruce Cordell: We use a lot of psionics in in-house games, and the most abused power BY FAR was astral construct. This was most abusable by wilders who could manifest the power at a higher level if they use Wild Surge on Astral Construct and end up with a construct of a higher level than they could normally have. This borders on exploitation, but it falls into the territory of actual abuse if a wilder can get multiple too-high level constructs. It destroys the game. But beyond that, from a game-play perspective, every summoned creature or animal companion a player brings to the table is more attention that player sucks from other players who do not have multiple creatures to control. As a game-play guiding principle, going forward as we have the opportunity, we would like to see characters with a limit of one non-character entity they can control at any one time. This way we can divide the 'spot-light' of the DM's attention more evenly among the players. ... I said going forward, as possible, we will look to reducing the number of companions to 1--this is a goal. It is not a hard and fast rule that will be applied in all cases and for all time. So what do I see? A new prestige class intended for Wizards and Sorcerers, one that has a class ability that doubles the number of creatures summoned with each spell. Nothing about only having one summoned creature at a time, or even one set, just a class ability that allows Wizards to spam out even more creatures at once. So I guess what Bruce meant was that its a goal for Psionics, but not one for anyone else. Sigh.....
InkBlot 12-23-07, 12:44 PM	Summoning is being nerfed in 4e, which they were already brainstorming for by the time CPsi was released. Such a wide ranging nerf is difficult to implement, and would probably never reach those groups without an internet connection. It would have been even more pained than the infamous polymorph errata. I'm thinking the one-pet-per-player rule is going to be hardwired into 4e. My encyclopedic knowledge of D&D has not yet extended into 4e. Sorry, but the only source I can cite is "a link somewhere on the 4e forums."
The_Mess 12-23-07, 01:18 PM	Well, I know they've stated they're getting rid of iterative attacks for melee combat. Getting rid of multiple creature summoning is the same logic. Invoking Hanlon's razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor), what happened is the designers of Complete Psionic got on the bandwagon too early. I'd argue that the Wilder's over-charging Astral Construct makes it a problem that regular casters don't have, but the phrase "over-powered Wilder" causes my brain to cramp.
CrimsonDeath 12-23-07, 01:41 PM	I'd argue that the Wilder's over-charging Astral Construct makes it a problem that regular casters don't have, but the phrase "over-powered Wilder" causes my brain to cramp. Yeah, because a Druid with Ashbound, Augment Summoning, Greenbound Summoning, and Rashemi Elemental Summoning isn't a problem at all. Oh, and don't forget that CPsi also introduced two or three new powers that are capable of summoning (literally summoning, something previously unheard-of in psionics) multiple creatures.
TazendrasGhost 12-23-07, 02:08 PM	I hope they do adress this in 4, but that's not the point of my post. The point I was trying to make is that after nerfing Astral Construct in order to de-emphasize summoning and companions, and hearing that this would be continued on in future releases, a sourcebook that came out much later actually went the other way and created a prestige class that allowed casters to spam summons even more effectively and in higher numbers. Plus I guess I am still frustrated that the only "complete" 3.5 sourcebook to focus on psionics was such a total piece of $*it.
Tempest Stormwind 12-23-07, 03:06 PM	Plus I guess I am still frustrated that the only "complete" 3.5 sourcebook to focus on psionics was such a total piece of $*it. Which is why you go for Hyperconscious and Untapped Potential instead. The two books together cost less than CPsi, and either book on its own provides more bang than CPsi.
TazendrasGhost 12-23-07, 03:19 PM	If my gaming group would accept third party material, I'd be all over that. I've seen UTP and liked it. Unfortunately I can't use it with my group, who is rarely willing to accept even Mind's Eye articles. Fortunately Eberron gives a little psionic love so I have some new content to work with.
Tempest Stormwind 12-23-07, 03:23 PM	If my gaming group would accept third party material, I'd be all over that. I've seen UTP and liked it. Unfortunately I can't use it with my group, who is rarely willing to accept even Mind's Eye articles. Fortunately Eberron gives a little psionic love so I have some new content to work with. Just ask 'em why they only use WotC. If it's for mechanical balance reasons, cite CoDzilla, plus the AC Nerf vs. Malconvoker example. If it's for availablility reasons, remind 'em that HC and UtP are both (almost entirely) Open Game, meaning their mechanics can show up for free. Then remind 'em that Hyperconscious was written by the same guy as CPsi.