Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vasily 06-26-07, 05:56 PM	(I was hoping that the Psionic scholars on the forum could help me with this in terms of balance.) FORCE DEVOTEE Abilities: Wisdom determines how powerful a power a devotee can manifest and how difficult those powers are to resist. Charisma and intelligence are important for the devotee's diplomatic relations and skill aptitude. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution benefit the devotee in his pursuit to protect the defenseless. Alignment: LG Hit Die: d6 Class Skills Autohypnosis (Wis), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (psionics) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex) . Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4. Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier. Class Features All of the following are class features of the devotee. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The devotee is proficient with all simple melee weapons, light weapons, and one-handed martial weapons. He is not proficient with any type of bow, crossbow, sling, etc. He is not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Although he may manifest powers while wearing armor or a shield, he may not use any of his special class abilities while doing so. Power Points/Day: A devotee’s ability to manifest powers is limited by the power points he has available. His base daily allotment of power points is given in the table below. Powers known: A devotee begins play knowing two psionic powers from his power list. At each new level, the devotee learns a new power. He learns 2 powers at levels 5, 10, and 15, for a total of 24 powers at level 20. Lvl BAB F R W Features PP/Day PK MaxLvKnown 1 0 0 2 2 Sense Flow - Awareness 0 2 1st 2 1 0 3 3 1 3 1st 3 2 1 3 3 Mercurial Style 2 4 1st 4 3 1 4 4 6 5 2nd 5 3 1 4 4 Blade Flurry -2 9 7 2nd 6 4 2 5 5 14 8 3rd 7 5 2 5 5 22 9 3rd 8 6/1 2 6 6 Sense Flow - Vigilance 29 10 4th 9 6/1 3 6 6 41 11 4th 10 7/2 3 7 7 Blade Flurry -1 50 13 5th 11 8/3 3 7 7 66 14 5th 12 9/4 4 8 8 Intuitive Strike 77 15 6th 13 9/4 4 8 8 97 16 6th 14 10/5 4 9 9 110 17 7th 15 11/6/1 5 9 9 Blade Flurry +0 134 19 7th 16 12/7/2 5 10 10 149 20 8th 17 12/7/2 5 10 10 177 21 8th 18 13/8/2 6 11 11 194 22 9th 19 14/9/3 6 11 11 211 23 9th 20 15/10/5 6 12 12 228 24 9th Sense Flow - Awareness (Su): The devotee has an extrasensory awareness of his surroundings. This ability allows the devotee to add his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC. This bonus may not exceed the Devotee's class level. This bonus to AC applies against touch attacks or when the devotee is caught flat-footed. He loses this bonus if immobilized or helpless. Mercurial Style (Su): At 3rd level, when wielding a light melee or one-handed melee weapon, the devotee may use his Dexterity modifier rather than his Strength modifier to attack rolls. The devotee still suffers the normal penalties if attempting to wield two weapons. This ability may not be used in conjunction with Power Attack. Blade Flurry (Ex): At 5th level, when wielding a light or one handed melee weapon, the devotee gains one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, although this attack and all others made this round suffer a –2 penalty. At 10th level, this penalty lessens to -1, and at 15th level, it lessens to 0. Sense Flow - Vigilance (Su): At 8th level, the devotee's consciousness grows more vigilant as he receives a +2 insight bonus to initiative rolls. This bonus increases by +1 every four levels after 8th, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. Intuitive Strike (Su): At 12th level, the devotee is guided to make precise strikes. When wielding a light melee or one-handed melee weapon, he may now use his Wisdom modifier rather than his Strength modifier to damage rolls. The total modifier applied to damage may not exceed six less than the devotee's class level. For instance, at level 14, a devotee with a Wisdom score of 28 (normally a +9 modifier) may add only a total of +8 to his damage roll. This ability may not be used when attempting Power Attack. Devotee Power List The devotee power list appears below. Powers from Complete Psionic are marked with an asterisk, while all other powers are from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. 1st Level: Burst, Catfall, Charm (Psionic), Conceal Thoughts, Control Object, Deflection Field*, Detect Psionics, Distract, Empathy, Empty Mind, Far Hand, Force Screen, Inertial Armor, Metaphysical Weapon, Mighty Spring*, Mindlink, Missive, Precognition, Precognition (Defensive), Sense Link, Synthesthete, Telempathic Projection. 2nd Level: Animal Affinity, Chameleon, Clairvoyant Sense, Control Sound, Detect Hostile Intent, Empathic Transfer, Energy Adaptation (Specified), Energy Push, Identify (Psionic), Levitate, Object Reading, Prowess, Read Thoughts, Sense Link (Forced), Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions, Serenity*, Suggestion. 3rd Level: Body Adjustment, Body Purification, Breathless*, Danger Sense, Dispel Psionics, Escape Detection, False Sensory Input, Hustle, Mental Barrier, Psionic Lion’s Charge1, RetrieveSP, Telekinetic Boomerang*, Telekinetic Force, Telekinetic Thrust, Touchsight, Ubiquitous Vision. 4th Level: Aura Sight, Correspond, Detect Remote Viewing, Discern Lies (Psionic)*, Divination (Psionic), Energy Adaptation, Freedom of Movement, Inertial Barrier, Remote Viewing, Steadfast Perception, Telekinetic Maneuver. 5th Level: Adapt Body, Incarnate, Mind Probe, Power Resistance, Second Chance, Telekinetic Buffer*, Tower of Iron Will. 6th Level: Concussive Detonation*, Dispelling Buffer, Precognition (Greater), Psychometry. 7th Level: Energy Conversion2, Evade Burst, Fate of One, Mind Blank (Personal), Reddopsi. 8th Level: Hypercognition, Mind Blank (Psionic), Moment of Prescience (Psionic), Telekinetic Sphere. 9th Level: Metafaculty, Psychic Chirurgery, Tornado Blast. 1 - This power is originally a 2nd-Level Psychic Warrior power only. 2 - This power functions differently for the devotee. The duration is only one round (maximum) as opposed to 10 min/level. However, the power is manifested as an immediate action. SP - This power does not function in a teleportative manner when manifested by a devotee. The object simply moves very quickly to the manifester's hand (50 ft/sec). The power is manifested as a swift action. The retrieval is resolved as a move action if the object is less than 50 ft away, and a standard action if the object is between 50 ft and the maximum range of the power. If the object is held by a creature, the creature is allowed both a will save and a strength check to negate the power. The manifester must overcome any strength or physical resistance affecting the object in order to retrieve it (using his Wisdom modifier in the DC check). Things to note: First level powers, if compared to spells per day, follow the pattern of 0,1,2,3. All other powers follow the progression of 1,2,2,3. 8th and 9th level powers reach only a maximum of 2 times per day. Basically, at 20th level, all powers could be manifested 3 times per day except for 8th and 9th level powers which could only be manifested 2 times per day. The total power point reserve at Level 20 is close to the half-way point between the Psion and the Psychic Warrior at level 20 (the midpoint is actually 238). Anyways, here are some of the changes. Thanks for all the suggestions so far. Let me know if it looks better. Also, I'm still not really sure about the hit-die thing, so let me know what you think!
DM-Scott 06-26-07, 08:47 PM	The alignment requirement may not be nessicary. You have a class that could make for both Jedi and Sith themed characters fairly easily. The hit dice is low for a class that seems centered on melee weapon fighting. Considering the low PP totals, I'm guessing that the class is intended to see melee combat fairly often as it doesn't seem they can rely on their power points for very long. This also seems to be a very MAD (multi-ability dependant) class, needing good ability scores in a variety of things to be good (though the ability to use dex + wisdom to determine attack / damage for melee helps a bit), particularly wisdom, dex, and constitution. Hmmm. I would say to remove the penalties for wearing armor, at least the ability to manifest psionic powers. The reason being that psionics do not suffer for wearing armor or being bound. Secondly as a flavor aspect. Jedi are perfectly capable of using the force while wearing armor. The only exception that I know of would be the video games Knights of the Old Republic 1 & 2. However, there are many instances of Jedi in armor. For example, in the Clone Wars mini series both Obi-Wan and Anakin wear storm trooper armor, and while the modern Jedi order does not use armor, in the sith wars they wore armor which offered protection against lightsabers. However, leaving the class with no weapon or armor proficiency works fine. It means that they will either have to take armor proficiencies, or multiclass. If it risks being unbalanced, then you could make them loose thier precognition's AC bonus when wearing armor, but that may not be entirely nessicary... There power selection may be a bit much. Some of the powers (mostly higher level ones) seem a bit odd for a jedi or sith character (energy ray works well I think though). I'm not sure they should get 9th level powers. Like a psychic warrior, perhaps it should cap at 6th level powers and increase their other strengths accordingly. Also, you may consider adding this to their power list. Force Manipulation Kinetisist Level: Psion/Wilder 1, Psychic Warrior 1 Display: Visual Manifesting Time: Varies (see text) Range: Close (25ft + 5ft/2 levels) Target: Varies (see text) Duration: See text Saving Throw: Will negates (see text) Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 1 You channel strong psychokinentic force to achieve a variety of effects, ranging from simple object manipulations, to grand telekinetic effects that enhance your physical capabilities, or used against enemies. With this power you may choose to spend more power points to achieve different effects with this power. A list of the different applications and their PP cost to manifest is presented below. Force Telekinesis: As a standard action, this power allows you to manipulate any unattended object weighing up to 3lbs / manifester level, and move it up to 10ft per manifester level in any direction. You may move it outside of the range of this power, to the maximum distance allowed, but once the object is out of your power's range, it is no longer a possible target for future manifestations of this power (unless you either move within range of the object, or the object is returned to your maximum range). Force Leap: By expending 3 PP, you may manifest this power as a swift action in addition to a jump check. Increase the distance of your jump check result by 5ft/2 manifester levels. If a Nomad manifests this power, increase the distance by 5ft for every 10ft added (so 10ft becomes 15ft). Force Push: By expending 5 PP as a standard action, you may target one character or object per 4 manifester levels. Each target you choose must make a will save or be pushed horizontally 10ft/2 manifester levels in a direction you choose. If they are pushed into an obstacle such as a wall, they suffer falling damage for the distance they were moved. If a Kinetisist manifested this power, increase the distance pushed by 5ft for every 10ft they would have been moved (so 10ft becomes 15ft). Force Frenzy: By expending 7 PP, as a standard action, you may gain a +1 insight bonus to your attack rolls, armor class, saving throws, one extra attack at your highest base attack bonus when making a full attack, and +20ft bonus to your speed. These bonuses do not stack with other insight bonuses, or other improvements to your movement (such as expiditious retreat, haste, and boots of striding and springing). These effects last 1 round / manifester level, and may be dispelled such as with powers such as dispel psionics. If an Egoist manifests this power, increase the benefits to a +2 insight bonus to attack, armor class, and +30ft speed. Augment: By spending 2 power points more than the required amount, you may manifest an effect of this power as a swift action. In the case of the force leap effect, it becomes a free action usable on your turn only. In the case of the force push effect, it becomes a move action. For every 2 power points spent above the 1st, this power's save DC increases by +1.
DM-Scott 06-26-07, 09:16 PM	Also...if you don't feel the psychic warrior's psionics live up to a Jedi-level quality, and feel you need telekinetic sphere, perhaps you may wish to just put telekinetic sphere as a lower level power on the class power list. There are already a few powers that psychic warriors get as lower level powers instead of higher level powers (breath of the black dragon is one, if I remember correctly). Of course telekinetic sphere looks like it may be pushing the preceived limits of what most of the Jedi do in the movies. It could be used to do what Yoda did in lifting a ship, however for the most part that would be the only use for the power would be to mimic that one single ability. It also doesn't fit very well with other occurences of Yoda using the force in such a way (such as preventing Obi and Anikan from getting squished in Episode 2). If you need a specific niche filled by a power, you may wish to create a power that can preform something like what you're looking for and then increase its power with augmenting and meta-psionic feats, and similar things. I'll see if I can cook something up, but in the meantime I have to go do something, so I'll check it when I get back. Good job by the way. It looks like you have been putting a lot of thought into this class. :w00t:
red_scare87 06-26-07, 09:42 PM	This class actually looks pretty solid for the most part. I agree that the alignment restriction could probably be lifted unless there is a specific flavor reason for it you had in mind. Also, I'm probably just missing something here, but there are only two 9th level powers on his list, but his powers known table allows him three. Is there a reason for the discrepancy, or is this just an oversight?
Melayl 06-26-07, 10:03 PM	Looks nice!
Vasily 06-26-07, 10:51 PM	Also, I'm probably just missing something here, but there are only two 9th level powers on his list, but his powers known table allows him three. Is there a reason for the discrepancy, or is this just an oversight? I thought that when you learn a new power, you could choose powers lower than your maximum power level. At level 19, for instance, I thought one might want to choose an 8th-level power because there were still some not taken. Let me know if I’m wrong about this . . . I’m still a little new to Psionics in general. The alignment requirement may not be nessicary. You have a class that could make for both Jedi and Sith themed characters fairly easily. Maybe just make it Lawful instead of LG? The hit dice is low for a class that seems centered on melee weapon fighting. Considering the low PP totals, I'm guessing that the class is intended to see melee combat fairly often as it doesn't seem they can rely on their power points for very long. Basically I was using the Bard class as a guide here. Bards only get d6 for hit points, and they don’t have access to a whole lot of spells. I felt like a true Jedi would be more concerned with negotiation and diplomacy (and even deceit in the case of the Dark Side) than brute force (exception would definitely be Maul or Anakin going berserk). When the time for talking is over, and combat begins, I felt like a higher level Jedi would be able to hold his own against most challenges, considering their high wisdom and dexterity. I also felt like all the major Jedi characters we know are the exceptionally powerful versions of most Jedi that exist. How many Jedi were wasted at that Geonosis place? In D&D terms, one could say that the higher level Jedi like Yoda and Windu were so powerful precisely because they were at a high (possibly epic) level and their stats were exceptional, not because they had dozens of class benefits. The counter to this argument would be the Druid or Cleric, who both receive d8 hit points and can cast 9th level spells – even more often per day than this devotee class. However, I wanted to err on the weaker side so that this class didn’t seem broken from the start. Good job by the way. It looks like you have been putting a lot of thought into this class. Thanks! I actually got a lot of ideas from you and other members of the forum while doing this. Also, Lord Pendragon should get the credit for coming up with the non-psionic version of the Jedi -- his ideas helped me out a lot. Anyways, I appreciate the feedback and would like to hear any more suggestions or ideas!
red_scare87 06-27-07, 12:35 AM	I thought that when you learn a new power, you could choose powers lower than your maximum power level. At level 19, for instance, I thought one might want to choose an 8th-level power because there were still some not taken. Let me know if I’m wrong about this . . . I’m still a little new to Psionics in general. You can choose lower level powers, but this class forces you to. It's not a big deal really, just something that I noticed and thought I would get clarified. You might just want to change the progression so that you only gain access to 9th level powers at 19th level. Although, as I said, it's really not that big of a deal.
ck2001wendt 06-27-07, 03:11 AM	1. Why not start at the obvious place...look over the Jedi Guardian base class in the SW D20 RPG for ideas? 2. You should bump the HP to D8. You should also disallow the Psychic Warrior for people who take levels in Force Devotee, and vice-versa, since they do the same thing. 3. I would say your powers should cap out at 6th (the powers you put in there for 8th and 9th make little sense for a Jedi, and some of the 7th level powers can be reduced to 6th), and should include Spirit of War (which is Jedi Battle Meditation; see CPsi) with a level reduction to 6th. 4. Giving all the Precognition abilities at 2nd level is unbalanced. I would never take more than 4 levels in this class, then multi-class into a PrC like Slayer, since you've just given me the only class ability worth having at 2nd. Also, since I can easily swing a +11 Wis bonus in 20 levels, the level mechanic ensures even if I take 20 levels of the class, I won't get the full bonuses. Don't know how I feel about that. Break up when you get the bonuses to balance it (for ex. 2nd AC, 4th Init, 6th Att, 8th Damage), and make it a 1-for-1 bonus gain. Take a look at Tome of Battle for ideas. 5. Think about bonus Fighter feats at 5th, 10th, and 20th.
Eldritch_Lord 06-27-07, 08:40 AM	I agree with what's been said so far, particularly bumping the d6 to a d8, removing alignment restriction, splitting precognition, and giving a generic Force power. 1) In the d20 Star Wars RPG, any classes who expect to see combat regularly have at least a d8; the Jedi Consular has a d6, but has no combat-oriented class abilities. 2) Force users come in all shades of good and evil; if this is going to be a Force devotee rather than a Jedi or Sith, you should remove alignment restrictions or at least make it "Any non-chaotic." The Jedi are lawful in that they are loyal to the Jedi Council (usually), and Sith could be anywhere from LN to NE. 3) Give a different precognition ability at every even level past 2nd, or maybe every 3rd level; also, limit benefits to 3/4 level rather than 1/2 level. More later.
Eldritch_Lord 06-27-07, 02:26 PM	Okay, I'm back. In terms of a generic, utilitarian Force power, you might want to take a look at the Star Wars RPG book at your local bookstore. All of the Force powers from the movies are quantified as skills or feats, and you might want to give the Force devotee abilities based on them. (Unfortunately, there's no Star Wars d20 SRD to show you the skills and feats.) That said, however, the Force ability DM-Scott made is good for a few abilities; you might want to add more augments that the devotee can access at higher levels.
Vasily 06-28-07, 11:36 AM	3. I would say your powers should cap out at 6th (the powers you put in there for 8th and 9th make little sense for a Jedi, I actually thought they did make sense: "A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense". Let me know what doesn't look right and I'll try to fix it. should include Spirit of War (which is Jedi Battle Meditation; see CPsi) with a level reduction to 6th. This seems like a good one at first, but I guess I didn't think that the Jedi did much "buffing" of others during combat. Maybe the spirit of war could be changed to affect the manifester only? This class actually looks pretty solid for the most part. I agree that the alignment restriction could probably be lifted unless there is a specific flavor reason for it you had in mind. Looks nice! Thanks, Let me know if it still looks okay after the adjustments. And thanks again everybody for the suggestions!
CalculatedTHAC0 06-30-07, 01:01 PM	I really like DM-Scott's idea for the Force Manipulation power. It would make a lot of the powers you have listed unnecessary, and it would prevent you from having to make a strange version of Retrieve. Tornado Blast may not make sense for this class, especially if you are trying to follow the "Knowledge and defense" route.
sir_dwar 06-30-07, 06:00 PM	To be fair, that isn't always true. Mace Windu used some Dark force powers (but that's because of Vapaad), and their are several offensive light side powers (Mainly stunning ones, even Electric Judgment would only do non-lethal damage). Also, some Jedi, like Anakin and Luke, where more brute force in their saber fighting, while some, like Kyle Katarn, preferred a balance (Kyle mastered all three of the New Jedi Order styles, Fast, Medium, and Strong). Also, With all do Respect, Qui-Gon was probably Chaotic Good (He had a serious problem with authority). Lastly, what about Ataru specialists? Come on, who doesn't want to fight Yoda-style?
ck2001wendt 06-30-07, 06:28 PM	This seems like a good one at first, but I guess I didn't think that the Jedi did much "buffing" of others during combat. Maybe the spirit of war could be changed to affect the manifester only? "Spirit of War" mimics "Jedi Battle Meditation", which is a classic ability from the early days of the Expanded Universe (especially Tales of the Jedi). My honest advice on powers? Look through the SW D20 RPG, the Darkside Sourcebook and the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook and read through the powers. Then look for Psionic powers that fall into the categories. Some of the powers you add (like Tornado blast) are far more "projection" based than the standard TP (Sense) + TK (Control) + Empathy (Alter) formulation of most Jedi powers. Also, if you want to go for level 7-9 powers, I would think of a PrC that goes to lower HD and BAB, Will Strong, that gives you access (think Yoda or the Emporer). For example, here's my (quick and dirty) power list: 1st: adrenaline boost, burst, Catfall, control object, Daze, Deflection Field, Detect Psionics, Disable, Distract, Eidetic Lock, Empathy, Empty Mind, Endure Elements, Far Hand, mighty spring, Mind Thrust, Missive, Precog (defensive), Precog (offensive), precognition, prescience (offensive), Sense Link, Slow Breathing, Vigor 2nd: animal affinity, aversion, biofeedback, Body Adjustment, Body Purification, charm (increased level), clairvoyant sense, Cloud Mind, Damp Power, Detect Hostile Intent, Elfsight, Energy Adaptation Specified, hustle, Id Insinuation, incite bravery, Inflict Pain, Knock, levitate, lion's charge, Mental Disruption, moment of insight, power weapon, prowess, read thoughts, Recall Agony, Serenity, sustenance, Thought Shield, Telekinetic Force (reduced level), Telekinetic Thrust (reduced level), Zone of Alertness 3rd: crisis of breath, evade burst, Danger Sense, Keen Edge, Mental Barrier, Mind Trap, Realized Potential, suggestion (increased level), TK boomerang, TK maneuver (reduced level) 4th: correspond, death urge, empathic feedback, energy adaptation, freedom of movement, inertial barrier, intellect fortress, mind wipe, perfect riposte, suggestion implanted, TK buffer (reduced level), steadfast perception 5th: adapt body, catapsi, domination (increased level), power resistance, psychic crush, psychotic break, remote viewing (increased level), tower of iron will, true seeing, 6th: cloud mind mass, dispelling buffer, mind blank personal, mind over energy, moment of prescience psionic (reduced), spirit of war (reduced), suspend life
CalculatedTHAC0 07-11-07, 01:54 PM	In regards to the hit-die debate on this -- the Fist of Zuoken prestige class has only d6. In comparison with FoZ, this class doesn't seem to be too imbalanced. That being said, it still might be cleaner to just use the Star Wars d20 rules for Jedi than making random 3.5 abilities.