Freedom of Movement counter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Freedom of Movement counter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Orenmir
10-01-07, 06:34 PM What are some ways to counter Freedom of Movement?

More specifically, how could you start a grapple with someone that has Freedom of Movement?

I put this under Psionics b/c I was hoping to find a power that would do it.
Lycanthromancer
10-01-07, 06:36 PM Dispel it? Null psionics field?

Freedom of movement explicitly forbids grappling a character under its effects, so you have to take it down first.

Of course, if you simply want to immobilize a character, there's always a wall of ectoplasm, etc.
Orenmir
10-01-07, 07:02 PM Does Dispel Psionics fall under the Magic=Psionics transparency rule?

Do all Psionic powers follow such rule?
Lycanthromancer
10-01-07, 07:07 PM Yup. There are, however, certain powers that only work against psionic characters.
Orenmir
10-01-07, 07:11 PM Thanks.

Being a PsyWar, it'll cost me an EK feat. But, being a grappler, I think it's worth it.
CrimsonDeath
10-01-07, 08:30 PM Freedom of movement explicitly forbids grappling a character under its effects, so you have to take it down first.

Actually, the subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt or to escape a grapple. Which, if I understand correctly, makes it great for people who actually want to grapple-- Your enemy can't grapple you back.
Orenmir
10-01-07, 11:01 PM Actually, the subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt or to escape a grapple. Which, if I understand correctly, makes it great for people who actually want to grapple-- Your enemy can't grapple you back.

That just seems a bit too powerful.

One could easily argue that an attempt to resist a grapple is countered by an attempt to initiate a grapple. Therefore, a grappler under Freedom of Movement does not automatically succeed his initiation attempt; but, the opponent under Freedom of Movement does succeed the resistance attempt. And, an escape attempt is countered by a continue attempt. When someone tries to escape a grapple, the opponent doesn't make an escape attempt as well -- he makes a continuation attempt.

It's all in the wording, which the description of FoM does a bad job with. But, I don't think the writer's intended a grappler with FoM to have so much power. Afterall, the spell is defensive/protective in nature (except for that whole underwater part).
Suldarr'essalar
10-02-07, 02:43 AM Actually, the subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt or to escape a grapple. Which, if I understand correctly, makes it great for people who actually want to grapple-- Your enemy can't grapple you back.
Not quite
Freedom of Movement
Abjuration
Level: Brd 4, Clr 4, Drd 4, Luck 4, Rgr 4
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or touch
Target: You or creature touched
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
CrimsonDeath
10-02-07, 03:52 AM One could easily argue that an attempt to resist a grapple is countered by an attempt to initiate a grapple. Therefore, a grappler under Freedom of Movement does not automatically succeed his initiation attempt; but, the opponent under Freedom of Movement does succeed the resistance attempt. And, an escape attempt is countered by a continue attempt. When someone tries to escape a grapple, the opponent doesn't make an escape attempt as well -- he makes a continuation attempt.

I think you misunderstood what I meant.

Consider Joe, the Psychic Warrior. He wants to grapple Steve, the Fighter.

Joe starts by buffing himself a few times-- Expansion, Animal Affinity (Strength), Grip of Iron, Strength of My Enemy, and, oddly enough, Freedom of Movement. (He's a Psychic Warrior. That's what they do.)

So, Joe makes his touch attack and hits, then makes his grapple check as normal and happens to win. So, they're grappled. Joe finishes his full attack by making more grapple checks as normal, winning once and losing once.

Now Steve would like to grapple back. He tries to grapple for damage, but Joe has Freedom of Movement, so he automatically succeeds. (That was my point, although I'm not absolutely sure it works like that.) Since that obviously isn't working, Steve finishes his full attack by trying to escape the grapple. He rolls his grapple checks, and Joe rolls his grapple checks as normal, since he's not resisting a grapple at this point. Joe wins the first check but, miraculously, loses the second.

Does that clarify what I meant? And does anyone agree with me?
Orenmir
10-02-07, 11:39 AM Now Steve would like to grapple back. He tries to grapple for damage, but Joe has Freedom of Movement, so he automatically succeeds.

Why does Joe automatically succeed? FoM says nothing about succeeding a grapple check for damage. The FoM subject only succeeds at resisting a grapple attempt (that's the attempt to start a grapple) and escaping a grapple or pin (that's the attempt to end a grapple or pin).
SlanderPanic
10-02-07, 11:56 AM Being a PsyWar, it'll cost me an EK feat.

Or you could get a suppression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#suppression) weapon. Unlimited dispelling and all you have to do is what you do best anyway: Hit things. For a grappler, I suggest spiked gauntlets. The touch attack to initiate the grapple gives you a chance to bring down your opponent's freedom of movement (along with any other buffs he has up) and the gauntlets' enhancement bonus helps you succeed in that attack. They probably won't help with checks once you've got the grapple initiated, but I doubt many opponents will see the dispel coming.
PhaedrusXY
10-02-07, 12:06 PM Why does Joe automatically succeed? FoM says nothing about succeeding a grapple check for damage. The FoM subject only succeeds at resisting a grapple attempt (that's the attempt to start a grapple) and escaping a grapple or pin (that's the attempt to end a grapple or pin).It says grapple attempt, NOT attempt to start a grapple. I'd read the first as any grapple check used offensively against you.

It works exactly like CrimsonDeath said.
Slagger the Chuul
10-02-07, 01:08 PM It says grapple attempt, NOT attempt to start a grapple. I'd read the first as any grapple check used offensively against you.

That's not how I'd read the term "grapple attempt".

Grappling is a state you're in, not the actions you're performing. A grapple attempt would be the act of trying to grapple in the first place; opposed grapple checks simply determine what you do while you're grappling.

For example, slamming your opponent's face into the bricks isn't a grapple attempt; it's an attempt to deal damage.
Orenmir
10-02-07, 01:43 PM I agree. A grapple attempt is what you do to try to start a grapple (and there is a grapple check involved). Afterwards, a grapple check is what you do during a grapple (to apply damage or pin or move or escape). You don't attempt a grapple during a grapple.
PhaedrusXY
10-02-07, 02:45 PM Hmm... yeah, I could see that. It does make the spell a bit less powerful, also (which I agree is a good thing).
Knight0
10-02-07, 03:38 PM Ok what happens with a scout's Freedom of Movement (Ex) ability? you can't dispel that and it works in a null psionics/antimagic field.
PhaedrusXY
10-02-07, 04:38 PM Then you can't grapple the scout...

The moral of the story is: don't make your character a "one trick pony".

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Orenmir 10-01-07, 06:34 PM	What are some ways to counter Freedom of Movement? More specifically, how could you start a grapple with someone that has Freedom of Movement? I put this under Psionics b/c I was hoping to find a power that would do it.
Lycanthromancer 10-01-07, 06:36 PM	Dispel it? Null psionics field? Freedom of movement explicitly forbids grappling a character under its effects, so you have to take it down first. Of course, if you simply want to immobilize a character, there's always a wall of ectoplasm, etc.
Orenmir 10-01-07, 07:02 PM	Does Dispel Psionics fall under the Magic=Psionics transparency rule? Do all Psionic powers follow such rule?
Lycanthromancer 10-01-07, 07:07 PM	Yup. There are, however, certain powers that only work against psionic characters.
Orenmir 10-01-07, 07:11 PM	Thanks. Being a PsyWar, it'll cost me an EK feat. But, being a grappler, I think it's worth it.
CrimsonDeath 10-01-07, 08:30 PM	Freedom of movement explicitly forbids grappling a character under its effects, so you have to take it down first. Actually, the subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt or to escape a grapple. Which, if I understand correctly, makes it great for people who actually want to grapple-- Your enemy can't grapple you back.
Orenmir 10-01-07, 11:01 PM	Actually, the subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt or to escape a grapple. Which, if I understand correctly, makes it great for people who actually want to grapple-- Your enemy can't grapple you back. That just seems a bit too powerful. One could easily argue that an attempt to resist a grapple is countered by an attempt to initiate a grapple. Therefore, a grappler under Freedom of Movement does not automatically succeed his initiation attempt; but, the opponent under Freedom of Movement does succeed the resistance attempt. And, an escape attempt is countered by a continue attempt. When someone tries to escape a grapple, the opponent doesn't make an escape attempt as well -- he makes a continuation attempt. It's all in the wording, which the description of FoM does a bad job with. But, I don't think the writer's intended a grappler with FoM to have so much power. Afterall, the spell is defensive/protective in nature (except for that whole underwater part).
Suldarr'essalar 10-02-07, 02:43 AM	Actually, the subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt or to escape a grapple. Which, if I understand correctly, makes it great for people who actually want to grapple-- Your enemy can't grapple you back. Not quite Freedom of Movement Abjuration Level: Brd 4, Clr 4, Drd 4, Luck 4, Rgr 4 Components: V, S, M, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal or touch Target: You or creature touched Duration: 10 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
CrimsonDeath 10-02-07, 03:52 AM	One could easily argue that an attempt to resist a grapple is countered by an attempt to initiate a grapple. Therefore, a grappler under Freedom of Movement does not automatically succeed his initiation attempt; but, the opponent under Freedom of Movement does succeed the resistance attempt. And, an escape attempt is countered by a continue attempt. When someone tries to escape a grapple, the opponent doesn't make an escape attempt as well -- he makes a continuation attempt. I think you misunderstood what I meant. Consider Joe, the Psychic Warrior. He wants to grapple Steve, the Fighter. Joe starts by buffing himself a few times-- Expansion, Animal Affinity (Strength), Grip of Iron, Strength of My Enemy, and, oddly enough, Freedom of Movement. (He's a Psychic Warrior. That's what they do.) So, Joe makes his touch attack and hits, then makes his grapple check as normal and happens to win. So, they're grappled. Joe finishes his full attack by making more grapple checks as normal, winning once and losing once. Now Steve would like to grapple back. He tries to grapple for damage, but Joe has Freedom of Movement, so he automatically succeeds. (That was my point, although I'm not absolutely sure it works like that.) Since that obviously isn't working, Steve finishes his full attack by trying to escape the grapple. He rolls his grapple checks, and Joe rolls his grapple checks as normal, since he's not resisting a grapple at this point. Joe wins the first check but, miraculously, loses the second. Does that clarify what I meant? And does anyone agree with me?
Orenmir 10-02-07, 11:39 AM	Now Steve would like to grapple back. He tries to grapple for damage, but Joe has Freedom of Movement, so he automatically succeeds. Why does Joe automatically succeed? FoM says nothing about succeeding a grapple check for damage. The FoM subject only succeeds at resisting a grapple attempt (that's the attempt to start a grapple) and escaping a grapple or pin (that's the attempt to end a grapple or pin).
SlanderPanic 10-02-07, 11:56 AM	Being a PsyWar, it'll cost me an EK feat. Or you could get a suppression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#suppression) weapon. Unlimited dispelling and all you have to do is what you do best anyway: Hit things. For a grappler, I suggest spiked gauntlets. The touch attack to initiate the grapple gives you a chance to bring down your opponent's freedom of movement (along with any other buffs he has up) and the gauntlets' enhancement bonus helps you succeed in that attack. They probably won't help with checks once you've got the grapple initiated, but I doubt many opponents will see the dispel coming.
PhaedrusXY 10-02-07, 12:06 PM	Why does Joe automatically succeed? FoM says nothing about succeeding a grapple check for damage. The FoM subject only succeeds at resisting a grapple attempt (that's the attempt to start a grapple) and escaping a grapple or pin (that's the attempt to end a grapple or pin).It says grapple attempt, NOT attempt to start a grapple. I'd read the first as any grapple check used offensively against you. It works exactly like CrimsonDeath said.
Slagger the Chuul 10-02-07, 01:08 PM	It says grapple attempt, NOT attempt to start a grapple. I'd read the first as any grapple check used offensively against you. That's not how I'd read the term "grapple attempt". Grappling is a state you're in, not the actions you're performing. A grapple attempt would be the act of trying to grapple in the first place; opposed grapple checks simply determine what you do while you're grappling. For example, slamming your opponent's face into the bricks isn't a grapple attempt; it's an attempt to deal damage.
Orenmir 10-02-07, 01:43 PM	I agree. A grapple attempt is what you do to try to start a grapple (and there is a grapple check involved). Afterwards, a grapple check is what you do during a grapple (to apply damage or pin or move or escape). You don't attempt a grapple during a grapple.
PhaedrusXY 10-02-07, 02:45 PM	Hmm... yeah, I could see that. It does make the spell a bit less powerful, also (which I agree is a good thing).
Knight0 10-02-07, 03:38 PM	Ok what happens with a scout's Freedom of Movement (Ex) ability? you can't dispel that and it works in a null psionics/antimagic field.
PhaedrusXY 10-02-07, 04:38 PM	Then you can't grapple the scout... The moral of the story is: don't make your character a "one trick pony".