Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hovnarr 05-23-07, 05:48 PM	I've been tinkering with a full BAB psionic class as of late, and thought I should post it to see how you like it. I apologize for the unassuming editing - it looks booring, but at least it's readable. As it turns out, I inevitably drew inspiration from the jedi concept, but I feel the clairscentient, acrobatic bladesman has degenerated into such a common fictional archetype, that it's not bound to any particular setting. Basically, this is a psychic warrior variant for those of you who'd prefer it more jedi-ish. PSYCHIC WARRIOR VARIANT Alignment: any. Hit Dice: 1d8. Class Skills: Autohypnosis (Wis), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (psionics) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex) . Skill Points per Level: 4 + Int modifier. Base Attack Bonus: Highest. Fort Saves: Good. Reflex Saves: Good. Will Saves: Good. Manifesting Ability (Wisdom Based) Power points, ML, powers per level all according to Psychic Warrior, but learns from another "softer" list (see below). Weapons and Armor Proficiency Proficient with all simple and martial weapons. Not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, you loose your AC bonus (see below). Special Abilities AC Bonus (Ex): Works exactly like the monk AC bonus (including increases every five levels). Changes Summary This PsW variant trades feats and heavy armor for better BAB, saves and acrobatics. It requires a slightly different play style, borrowing elements from the monk and the telepath or seer. Sample powers of this variant would be far hand, suggestion, evade burst, correspond, true seeing and retrieve. Power List L1: Biofeedback, burst, call weaponry, catfall, call to mind, chameleon, charm, conceal thoughts, detect psionics, distract, empathy, empty mind, far hand, force screen, inertial armor, metaphysical weapon, mindlink, missive, precognition, precognition defensive, precognition offensive, prescience offensive, sense link, skate, synesthyte, telempathic projection, thicken skin, vigor. L2: Body adjustment, body equilibrium, body purification, clairvoyant sense, detect hostile intent, empathic transfer, hustle, levitate, mass missive, prowess, read thoughs, suggestion, thought shield. L3: Danger sense, dispel psionics, empathic feedback, escape detection, evade burst, keen edge, mental barrier, telekinetic force, telekinetic thrust, ubiquitous vision. L4: Aura sight, correspond, freedom of movement, immovability, inertial barrier, intellect fortress, steadfast perception, schism, telekinetic maneuver, weapon of energy. L5: Adapt body, psionic revivify, power resistance, psychofeedback, second chance, tower of iron will, true seeing. L6: Dispelling buffer, mind blank personal, precognition greater, restoration, retrieve, suspend life, temporal acceleration.
Nom 05-23-07, 08:49 PM	Uh, d8 HD, 3 good saves, full BAB and weapon proficiences, 4 points/level, and monk Wis bonus to AC? Plus half-caster manifesting? You're kidding, right? You've basically taken the monk, upped it to full BAB and real weapons, and removed the weak monk abilities in exchange for a more effective set.
Explosive_Zombie 05-23-07, 11:37 PM	I personally see no issue with just giving them a full BAB at no cost (those that know Duskblade should understand why). I also think the Soul Knife should get it too but thats another conversation.
hovnarr 05-24-07, 06:20 AM	Uh, d8 HD, 3 good saves, full BAB and weapon proficiences, 4 points/level, and monk Wis bonus to AC? Plus half-caster manifesting? You're kidding, right? You've basically taken the monk, upped it to full BAB and real weapons, and removed the weak monk abilities in exchange for a more effective set. You should compare it to Psychic Warrior, not monk. I think it's the same power level as the standard PsW. Most classes are better than monks. Compared to monk, he gets: +better bab +manifesting ability -no monk abilities (incluing flurry, bonus feats, fast movement, spell resistance, immunities - some of the abilities can be had if he selects the correct power and spends PP when necessary) +/-: Different weapon set. Is it better to attack with your fists as a monk or with weapons as a warrior? I think it depends. Monks get flurry and better damage dice, but can't have the cool weapon enhancements that magic items offer. Unless they use monk weapons of course.
InkBlot 05-24-07, 01:57 PM	A magic monk weapon is always better than a monk's unarmed strike, for damage, disarming, and sundering. Now, about your variant: No bonus feats and no class features besides manifesting and the AC boost? Ouch. I don't think I'd play this class, but it seems balanced to me. A psywar could use his bonus feats to buy a better attack bonus, better AC, and more attacks -- or he could multi into slayer. I would rather see this class with a manifester level equal to half it's class levels, or equal to it's class levels -4, and a handful of class features. Maybe Speed Of Thought at level X, Up The Walls at level Y, Psionic Charge at level Z, and Scorn Earth at level W. Dimension Door, Slide, and Swap should be on the power list too, IMO. Part of this archtype is suddenly disappearing and reappearing in a more advantageous place on the battlefield. If Jedi never 'ported, a Jedi made with this class could just not take any Dimension X powers.
hovnarr 05-24-07, 03:10 PM	no class features besides manifesting and the AC boost Nope. A psion doesn't get any class features besides manifesting either, and it works for them. I like it simple. A psywar could use his bonus feats to buy a better attack bonus, better AC, and more attacks That he could. This variant has it already and can spend regular feats on other things. or he could multi into slayer So could this variant. He'd loose the AC bonus improvements though. I would rather see this class with a manifester level equal to half it's class levels, or equal to it's class levels -4, and a handful of class features. Maybe Speed Of Thought at level X, Up The Walls at level Y, Psionic Charge at level Z, and Scorn Earth at level W. I considered class features for this class at first. Then I realized there was a psionic power for pretty much every class feature I wanted. So I decided to pack it all up as manifesting ability, increase that to as much as game balance would allow, and leave the final customization to the player. Dimension Door, Slide, and Swap should be on the power list too, IMO. Part of this archtype is suddenly disappearing and reappearing in a more advantageous place on the battlefield. If Jedi never 'ported, a Jedi made with this class could just not take any Dimension X powers. Sure, you could do that. But by the same logic, you could make a jedi with th regular psywar class and not put armor on him, so then this class could have full armor proficiency too. Or, you could reson that you choose to play a jedi-ish class and if you want to do something unjedi-ish like porting, you could take the Expanded Knowledge feat. I might drop or add powers to focus the character of the class even more though. Any ideas?
InkBlot 05-24-07, 04:56 PM	Nope. A psion doesn't get any class features besides manifesting either, and it works for them. I like it simple. A psion gets bonus feats. My suggestions for class features and additional powers for the power list were merely my preference. This class is absolutely fine as is. That he could. This variant has it already and can spend regular feats on other things. I merely pointed that out in support of the idea that your variant is balanced.
hovnarr 05-24-07, 05:55 PM	Glad you're ok with the balance issue! Something you'd want to change to fine tune the concept? Any skills or powers that feel misplaced or like they should be there. I know your view on porting powers already, but any other ideas?
Suldarr'essalar 05-24-07, 06:54 PM	Nope. A psion doesn't get any class features besides manifesting either, and it works for them. I like it simple. Generaly that is not a good idea. If the only thing a class gets +1ML and +1BAB per level than it's better to take slayer which grants 9/10 ML, full bab and hand full of new abilities. The only downside are poor saves but generaly it is better to have 10 levels of slayer than 10 levels of this variant. You may want to add some abilities above level 5, so that it would be still interesting to play psywar 10, 15 or 20, and not jump from class to class.
Nom 05-25-07, 04:07 AM	You should compare it to Psychic Warrior, not monk. I think it's the same power level as the standard PsW.Forfeit 8 feats for +1/4 BAB, +2 good saves, double skill points? Admittedly, you can't wear armour, but you get a not insignificant MAD bonus on AC and inertial barrier scales at +4 AC +1 per 2 levels (or you wear bracers). Of those 8 feats, we can immediately discount 4, since your natural progression is markedly superior to Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus (and stacks with them). Plus, you get iteratives earlier, and more. It still feels to me like you're taking the best bits of the monk and the PsyWar and sticking them both into one class, then adding a full BAB.
JulesCARV 05-25-07, 05:33 AM	Inertial armor is on the spell list, so these guys eventually run around with a +13 AC bonus from inertial armor, maybe +4 from wisdom, and +4 from the monk-like increases. Not that a psychic warrior with a monk's belt couldn't do most of that anyway, although not having to get a monk's belt is nice, as is the extra +3 from monkish increases.
hovnarr 05-25-07, 02:12 PM	So we have Suldarr'essalar thinking the class isn't good enough to stay in, Nom thinking it's a bit too good, and JulesCARV seems to think it's fairly balanced. This makes me happy :) As for adding special abilities at high levels to prevent dipping, I'm not entirely convinced. Staying in the class means full BAB and ML which is *HARD* to come by, AC advancement and all good saves. Slayer gives some nifty abilities, but you give up one ML, a feat, all good saves and AC advancement. Taking Slayer seems like a much stronger improvement for a psion than for a PsW variant, and we all know even doing it as a psion isn't a done deal.
Suldarr'essalar 05-25-07, 04:40 PM	So we have Suldarr'essalar thinking the class isn't good enough to stay in, Nom thinking it's a bit too good, and JulesCARV seems to think it's fairly balanced. This makes me happy :)All I'm saying is, there should be a price for picking PrCs. Compared to slayer, and sanctified mind, this class has very little to offer past level 5 (+4 to saving throws, you can easily obtain using powers, or elan racial ability). That is why I generally don't like it.
Celsun 05-25-07, 06:41 PM	I'd like to see this class with Medium BAB; otherwise, I like it. He has the precogs and various powers to compensate for the loss. I don't think any class with access to 6th level powers should have Full BAB (I think the Duskblade should be nerfed as well). This "softer" psywar shouldn't be any better at fighting than the default psywar.
Lina_Inverse 05-25-07, 07:01 PM	I'd like to see this class with Medium BAB; otherwise, I like it. That would make it strictly worse to the CURRENT psywarrior. who sits on the list of perfectly balanced classes. Now then. I don't like the idea of editing the psywarrior, because it sits on the list of perfectly balanced classes. Thats a D&D holy grail.
hovnarr 05-25-07, 07:24 PM	I don't like the idea of editing the psywarrior, because it sits on the list of perfectly balanced classes. Thats a D&D holy grail. If we consider a set of X classes, and all classes are not all exactly at the same power level, then we will have a power distributed set of X classes. A few of these will by definition be close to the median power value. Is that your definition of a balanced class? Because it's a description that fits the psychic warrior perfectly. It's just that "balanced" has a much more positive ring to it than "average" or "mediocre".
Lina_Inverse 05-25-07, 07:55 PM	If we consider a set of X classes, and all classes are not all exactly at the same power level, then we will have a power distributed set of X classes. A few of these will by definition be close to the median power value. Is that your definition of a balanced class? Because it's a description that fits the psychic warrior perfectly. I more base it on. 4 classes of this power level with good team composition would be appropriate for the CR system. Only 2 that fit that are rogue and psywarrior. So they are the holy grail classes to whose level all others should be balanced.
JulesCARV 05-25-07, 08:55 PM	I'm not sure whether it's balanced. I was just saying that monk-style wisdom to AC is a lot better tradeoff for a psychic warrior type than for most, since you can still use inertial armor anyway. I don't know how balanced either this or the monk's belt is, really.
hovnarr 05-26-07, 06:17 AM	I more base it on. 4 classes of this power level with good team composition would be appropriate for the CR system. Only 2 that fit that are rogue and psywarrior. So they are the holy grail classes to whose level all others should be balanced. I think that's a good way to define "balanced". Unfortunately, the CR system is pretty unpredictable. The group that can handle an ogre might not handle a locust swarm or an assassin vine, even though it's all CR 3. The are also monster who cast as a caster of X level, yet have a CR below X (and lots of beef and special abilities to add to that casting ability). But I guess we could make a list of 20 archetypical foes of average power for their CR for CRs 1-20 and pit it against classes of appropriate ECL, and then I think you're analysis would hold true for rogues and psywars at all levels.