Gaming Without Metamorphosis [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gaming Without Metamorphosis [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BloodyChariot
06-03-07, 11:05 AM Just about every practical psion build gets Metamorphosis. Arguably it's one of the best powers out there, especially at mid-level!

But what about gaming in a campaign in which you have to have seen the creature to metamorph into it, but rarely ever come across anything worthwhile?
Perhaps the campaign takes place in an extremely xenophobic setting, where you'll be attacked on sight if anybody sees you as an abnormal creature.
Or maybe you're playing in a "realistic" setting in which there are no spectacular magical creatures.

In any case, what I'm really asking is: what would you do without metamorphosis? If you simply couldn't take it, or if it lost all of its usefulness for whatever reason, how would that change your powers and feat selection?
skywyze
06-03-07, 11:32 AM I tried this once, actually. Wasn't much fun for the poor telepath in question, but it was REALLY useful for the rest of the party.

Essentially, she took Astral Construct and shared pain between it and the whole party. Cheap hit point batteries. Between that and Sharing Pain to herself so she could Body Adjustment it away, she was essentially reduced to a bad healer. It was sad. Nobody wanted to heal. The party would've died without a healer. So the telepath had to suck it up. Oh well.
Bacris
06-03-07, 11:52 AM Honestly, I've played plenty of psions that never used metamorphosis - wouldn't really bother me.
skywyze
06-03-07, 12:56 PM I imagine it'd be a lot like playing an arcane caster without shapechange, polymorph, alter self or similar spells. Immediately, you'd be sub-optimized because the spells can so easily be broken, even when used as intended (hydra, anyone?). But once you're past that, you can get to some very interesting builds, even if they ARE sub-optimized.
hovnarr
06-03-07, 07:18 PM Metamorphosis and Metamorphic Transfer do many things, but most of them can be replaced with other psionic effects. It's just that you can't get these effects as cheaply as 7 pp (or 0 pp and a feat use, if we consider transfer).

*Melee combat: Stay away from it and use astral construct instead.
*Defensive forms: Try ectoplasmic form instead or use various defensive powers like greater concealing amorpha or augmented vigor.
*Self buffs: Temporal acceleration covers for choker quickness very well.
*Blasting: rather than hydra jets, use actual energy powers and pay the pp cost.
*Save-or-dies: plenty of those in normal powers, you just won't get (Ex) Hold Monster from cloaker etc.
*Utility: Time Hop and Astral Construct plus a few social powers handle most of what you find in the metamorphosis toolbox.
turalisj
06-03-07, 07:34 PM Honestly, I've played plenty of psions that never used metamorphosis - wouldn't really bother me.

Same here. Although, it doesn't help that I can't make a decent character to build my life, but bleh :embarrass
Archtyrant Terevoth
06-03-07, 08:09 PM Honestly, I've played plenty of psions that never used metamorphosis - wouldn't really bother me.

Yeah, it's broken mechanics anyway. I seriously don't think I've ever DMed or played in a game where the polymorph mechanics were allowed as written. At the very least they were always heavily nerfed.
Lycanthromancer
06-03-07, 09:56 PM I've never had a psion with Metamorphosis. This next character I'm playing (where he uses Improved Psicrystal to get his psicrystal up to 15th level, then has it fight for him while he buffs it) is the first one I've ever used, and that's only because I got to build two characters for this game.
BlaineTog
06-03-07, 10:06 PM I, also, never bother with shapechange magics or powers. I really don't like anything about them: the mechanics, the flavor, the way one uses them, all of it. Just about the only thing I'd be interested in would be a power than transformed you into a specific creature. Come to think of it...
Lycanthromancer
06-03-07, 10:14 PM Meh. Check my rework. I like it better. Unfortunately, I couldn't use it in this game I'm about to start into, but...well, nothing's perfect.
Psikerlord
06-04-07, 06:04 AM There's no balance problem with polymorph/metamorph provided you implement a simple house rule: you restrict the number of attacks to the PCs usual BAB. Without metamorph, you lose a lot of stealth and moderate melee capability, but you survived 7-9 levels before you could even take it, so fall back on some other tricks... or just blast your way to victory! I can't think of a better stealth power however, nor a more generally flexible & handy power for 7 pp's.
BlaineTog
06-05-07, 05:07 AM There's no balance problem with polymorph/metamorph provided you implement a simple house rule: you restrict the number of attacks to the PCs usual BAB.AFAIK, most of the meta/polymorph cheese isn't from an excessive number of attacks so much as miscelaneous special abilities and, most of all, an extreme of versatility.
Psikerlord
06-05-07, 07:43 AM yeah, sorry I should add we don't use metamorphic transfer either. So I can't use it to get damage reduction, pixie invisibility, fast healing, etc etc.
BlaineTog
06-05-07, 01:36 PM yeah, sorry I should add we don't use metamorphic transfer either. So I can't use it to get damage reduction, pixie invisibility, fast healing, etc etc.Yeah, but as I understand it, those are just cream anyway, and you get them anyway at 17th level.
Psikerlord
06-05-07, 04:55 PM ... at 17th you should be able to get such things!
TikiMan
06-05-07, 05:43 PM Like others, I have never had a character with this power (or the spell for that matter). I make it quite clear that the spell is simply banned from my games. Most DM's I play with ban it as well. There have been a few instances of allowing it, but only because the player specifically stated that he was only going to use it for animal type forms (to get flying, sneaking, stuff like that). It has never been used for direct combat purposes.
hovnarr
06-05-07, 06:31 PM I use it as much as I can, and have never run into bannings yet. I almost never use it for melee combat though, because I don't want to take the glory away from those playing full BAB classes.

Pixie with transfered Greater Invisibility is probably my most common form. Arcane casters can cast GI at level 7 anyway, so it's not too unbalancing for my Egoist to do the same. I get 18 dex and flying (good) thrown in though, which allows me to use handy debuffs like Ecto Goo, the odd Astral Construct and some healing while remaining pretty safe from harm.

I also use the Cloaker form pretty much, mainly for Stupor as a pp conservation strategy (pay 7 pp for a pretty good defensive form and use as many Hold Monster as you like for free). It's a bit on the powerful side at low levels, but still not beyond what most full casters can do.

The third most common use is probably for utility or disguise (especially combined with tongues). Roper and Pyro/cryohydra just spoils the fun if you use it, so I try not to. If you don't flaunt your powers, most players and DMs won't have a problem with it.
Lycanthromancer
06-05-07, 07:50 PM My particular build (level 11 psion whose 15 hd psicrystal fights for him) is the melee monster in our group, so I don't have to hold back to let the meatshields shine. I AM the meatshield. :D

Round 1: metamorphosis the psicrystal and send it into battle.
Round 2: Have the psicrystal kill while I continue the buff.
Round 3, 4, 5: Repeat round 2.

It's better than a psychic warrior, with the same BAB, higher skill points, higher power points, better buff powers, and the ability to buff while attacking without using Quickened powers (though I can use those too, if I want).

I can also do ranged blaster support after a couple of buff rounds, if it comes to it.

So, yeah. With this build, I can be rogue, meatshield, caster, AND healer, all in one (though mostly just for my psicrystal). Pretty damned self-sufficient, even for a psion.
BloodyChariot
06-05-07, 08:59 PM So, um, what would you two do without it?
Lycanthromancer
06-05-07, 09:01 PM I'd play using some other build. Of course, I'd want to use MY version of metamorphosis, which is (as I've said) far less breakable.

Hmm. Maybe use my Deep Crystal Dragon supplement (soon to be released from Drea...well...no, I can't say that; nevermind).
angellis_ater
06-06-07, 03:54 AM I've never bothered with it as a player. Sure, it might be versatile and all, but so far I haven't played an Egoist and I always found better uses for my feats.
hovnarr
06-06-07, 05:38 AM So, um, what would you two do without it?

I'd play a Shaper instead.
Kaiberon
06-07-07, 03:15 PM Something I've noticed about a lot of the build ideas that use this and share pain.

I recall reading the cloaker ability and something about it not being quite right, i'll post again later when I have my MM in front of me.

As for share pain, it's a Psychometabolic power, so it won't work on an Astral Construct, cause constructs are unaffected by them right (don't waste my time with claws or bite of the wolf responses those powers targtet you not he construct).

I'd be willing to argue that a Psi Crystal is specifically exempt from such a rule due to it's familiar status, However, I'm pretty sure the way it breaks out is as follows:

Psion manifests Share Pain power picking the Fighter as the target and shares effect with PsiCrystal.

Any Damage the PsiCrystal takes is now foisted off onto the fighter. Any Damage the Psion takes is now foisted off onto the Fighter.
InkBlot
06-07-07, 03:59 PM As for share pain, it's a Psychometabolic power, so it won't work on an Astral Construct, cause constructs are unaffected by them right(?)

Constructs do not have a blanket immunity to psychometabolic effects. Most psychometabolic powers, which are not self-only, specifically state that they only affect living creatures. There are a few that do not.

It might sound crazy, but not all psychometabolic powers affect a metabolism. Many of them instead directly influence the immaterial life-force of a creature, which is still present and animating the creature whether or not it is technically living. Other psychometabolic powers create life were there was none before. Still others create non-living organic compounds.
Lycanthromancer
06-08-07, 01:26 PM As for share pain, it's a Psychometabolic power, so it won't work on an Astral Construct, cause constructs are unaffected by them right (don't waste my time with claws or bite of the wolf responses those powers targtet you not he construct).Does that mean that it's immune to breath of the black dragon?

Somehow, I don't think that works like you say it does.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BloodyChariot 06-03-07, 11:05 AM	Just about every practical psion build gets Metamorphosis. Arguably it's one of the best powers out there, especially at mid-level! But what about gaming in a campaign in which you have to have seen the creature to metamorph into it, but rarely ever come across anything worthwhile? Perhaps the campaign takes place in an extremely xenophobic setting, where you'll be attacked on sight if anybody sees you as an abnormal creature. Or maybe you're playing in a "realistic" setting in which there are no spectacular magical creatures. In any case, what I'm really asking is: what would you do without metamorphosis? If you simply couldn't take it, or if it lost all of its usefulness for whatever reason, how would that change your powers and feat selection?
skywyze 06-03-07, 11:32 AM	I tried this once, actually. Wasn't much fun for the poor telepath in question, but it was REALLY useful for the rest of the party. Essentially, she took Astral Construct and shared pain between it and the whole party. Cheap hit point batteries. Between that and Sharing Pain to herself so she could Body Adjustment it away, she was essentially reduced to a bad healer. It was sad. Nobody wanted to heal. The party would've died without a healer. So the telepath had to suck it up. Oh well.
Bacris 06-03-07, 11:52 AM	Honestly, I've played plenty of psions that never used metamorphosis - wouldn't really bother me.
skywyze 06-03-07, 12:56 PM	I imagine it'd be a lot like playing an arcane caster without shapechange, polymorph, alter self or similar spells. Immediately, you'd be sub-optimized because the spells can so easily be broken, even when used as intended (hydra, anyone?). But once you're past that, you can get to some very interesting builds, even if they ARE sub-optimized.
hovnarr 06-03-07, 07:18 PM	Metamorphosis and Metamorphic Transfer do many things, but most of them can be replaced with other psionic effects. It's just that you can't get these effects as cheaply as 7 pp (or 0 pp and a feat use, if we consider transfer). Melee combat: Stay away from it and use astral construct instead. Defensive forms: Try ectoplasmic form instead or use various defensive powers like greater concealing amorpha or augmented vigor. Self buffs: Temporal acceleration covers for choker quickness very well. Blasting: rather than hydra jets, use actual energy powers and pay the pp cost. Save-or-dies: plenty of those in normal powers, you just won't get (Ex) Hold Monster from cloaker etc. Utility: Time Hop and Astral Construct plus a few social powers handle most of what you find in the metamorphosis toolbox.
turalisj 06-03-07, 07:34 PM	Honestly, I've played plenty of psions that never used metamorphosis - wouldn't really bother me. Same here. Although, it doesn't help that I can't make a decent character to build my life, but bleh :embarrass
Archtyrant Terevoth 06-03-07, 08:09 PM	Honestly, I've played plenty of psions that never used metamorphosis - wouldn't really bother me. Yeah, it's broken mechanics anyway. I seriously don't think I've ever DMed or played in a game where the polymorph mechanics were allowed as written. At the very least they were always heavily nerfed.
Lycanthromancer 06-03-07, 09:56 PM	I've never had a psion with Metamorphosis. This next character I'm playing (where he uses Improved Psicrystal to get his psicrystal up to 15th level, then has it fight for him while he buffs it) is the first one I've ever used, and that's only because I got to build two characters for this game.
BlaineTog 06-03-07, 10:06 PM	I, also, never bother with shapechange magics or powers. I really don't like anything about them: the mechanics, the flavor, the way one uses them, all of it. Just about the only thing I'd be interested in would be a power than transformed you into a specific creature. Come to think of it...
Lycanthromancer 06-03-07, 10:14 PM	Meh. Check my rework. I like it better. Unfortunately, I couldn't use it in this game I'm about to start into, but...well, nothing's perfect.
Psikerlord 06-04-07, 06:04 AM	There's no balance problem with polymorph/metamorph provided you implement a simple house rule: you restrict the number of attacks to the PCs usual BAB. Without metamorph, you lose a lot of stealth and moderate melee capability, but you survived 7-9 levels before you could even take it, so fall back on some other tricks... or just blast your way to victory! I can't think of a better stealth power however, nor a more generally flexible & handy power for 7 pp's.
BlaineTog 06-05-07, 05:07 AM	There's no balance problem with polymorph/metamorph provided you implement a simple house rule: you restrict the number of attacks to the PCs usual BAB.AFAIK, most of the meta/polymorph cheese isn't from an excessive number of attacks so much as miscelaneous special abilities and, most of all, an extreme of versatility.
Psikerlord 06-05-07, 07:43 AM	yeah, sorry I should add we don't use metamorphic transfer either. So I can't use it to get damage reduction, pixie invisibility, fast healing, etc etc.
BlaineTog 06-05-07, 01:36 PM	yeah, sorry I should add we don't use metamorphic transfer either. So I can't use it to get damage reduction, pixie invisibility, fast healing, etc etc.Yeah, but as I understand it, those are just cream anyway, and you get them anyway at 17th level.
Psikerlord 06-05-07, 04:55 PM	... at 17th you should be able to get such things!
TikiMan 06-05-07, 05:43 PM	Like others, I have never had a character with this power (or the spell for that matter). I make it quite clear that the spell is simply banned from my games. Most DM's I play with ban it as well. There have been a few instances of allowing it, but only because the player specifically stated that he was only going to use it for animal type forms (to get flying, sneaking, stuff like that). It has never been used for direct combat purposes.
hovnarr 06-05-07, 06:31 PM	I use it as much as I can, and have never run into bannings yet. I almost never use it for melee combat though, because I don't want to take the glory away from those playing full BAB classes. Pixie with transfered Greater Invisibility is probably my most common form. Arcane casters can cast GI at level 7 anyway, so it's not too unbalancing for my Egoist to do the same. I get 18 dex and flying (good) thrown in though, which allows me to use handy debuffs like Ecto Goo, the odd Astral Construct and some healing while remaining pretty safe from harm. I also use the Cloaker form pretty much, mainly for Stupor as a pp conservation strategy (pay 7 pp for a pretty good defensive form and use as many Hold Monster as you like for free). It's a bit on the powerful side at low levels, but still not beyond what most full casters can do. The third most common use is probably for utility or disguise (especially combined with tongues). Roper and Pyro/cryohydra just spoils the fun if you use it, so I try not to. If you don't flaunt your powers, most players and DMs won't have a problem with it.
Lycanthromancer 06-05-07, 07:50 PM	My particular build (level 11 psion whose 15 hd psicrystal fights for him) is the melee monster in our group, so I don't have to hold back to let the meatshields shine. I AM the meatshield. :D Round 1: metamorphosis the psicrystal and send it into battle. Round 2: Have the psicrystal kill while I continue the buff. Round 3, 4, 5: Repeat round 2. It's better than a psychic warrior, with the same BAB, higher skill points, higher power points, better buff powers, and the ability to buff while attacking without using Quickened powers (though I can use those too, if I want). I can also do ranged blaster support after a couple of buff rounds, if it comes to it. So, yeah. With this build, I can be rogue, meatshield, caster, AND healer, all in one (though mostly just for my psicrystal). Pretty damned self-sufficient, even for a psion.
BloodyChariot 06-05-07, 08:59 PM	So, um, what would you two do without it?
Lycanthromancer 06-05-07, 09:01 PM	I'd play using some other build. Of course, I'd want to use MY version of metamorphosis, which is (as I've said) far less breakable. Hmm. Maybe use my Deep Crystal Dragon supplement (soon to be released from Drea...well...no, I can't say that; nevermind).
angellis_ater 06-06-07, 03:54 AM	I've never bothered with it as a player. Sure, it might be versatile and all, but so far I haven't played an Egoist and I always found better uses for my feats.
hovnarr 06-06-07, 05:38 AM	So, um, what would you two do without it? I'd play a Shaper instead.
Kaiberon 06-07-07, 03:15 PM	Something I've noticed about a lot of the build ideas that use this and share pain. I recall reading the cloaker ability and something about it not being quite right, i'll post again later when I have my MM in front of me. As for share pain, it's a Psychometabolic power, so it won't work on an Astral Construct, cause constructs are unaffected by them right (don't waste my time with claws or bite of the wolf responses those powers targtet you not he construct). I'd be willing to argue that a Psi Crystal is specifically exempt from such a rule due to it's familiar status, However, I'm pretty sure the way it breaks out is as follows: Psion manifests Share Pain power picking the Fighter as the target and shares effect with PsiCrystal. Any Damage the PsiCrystal takes is now foisted off onto the fighter. Any Damage the Psion takes is now foisted off onto the Fighter.
InkBlot 06-07-07, 03:59 PM	As for share pain, it's a Psychometabolic power, so it won't work on an Astral Construct, cause constructs are unaffected by them right(?) Constructs do not have a blanket immunity to psychometabolic effects. Most psychometabolic powers, which are not self-only, specifically state that they only affect living creatures. There are a few that do not. It might sound crazy, but not all psychometabolic powers affect a metabolism. Many of them instead directly influence the immaterial life-force of a creature, which is still present and animating the creature whether or not it is technically living. Other psychometabolic powers create life were there was none before. Still others create non-living organic compounds.
Lycanthromancer 06-08-07, 01:26 PM	As for share pain, it's a Psychometabolic power, so it won't work on an Astral Construct, cause constructs are unaffected by them right (don't waste my time with claws or bite of the wolf responses those powers targtet you not he construct).Does that mean that it's immune to breath of the black dragon? Somehow, I don't think that works like you say it does.