Harlequin, Need Feedback [Archive] - Wizards Community

Harlequin, Need Feedback [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AdventChild
08-15-07, 12:22 PM The harlequin is a base class i am currently working on, it uses masks created from ectoplasm and learns a few troupe dances to taunt and disrupt his enemies in battle. ive heard there is a prestige class that does something like that in complete scoundrel (the mask parts), this class was not inspired by it, i learned about it after i finished the class.

Here is the sketch of the artwork of the class:
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z35/circu_2007/13-08-07_1235.jpg

Finished artwork:
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z35/circu_2007/Harldrin.jpg

Final Art:
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z35/circu_2007/Shira.jpg

I compiled the class into a small pdf for you guys to read, i would really love feedback and suggestions for masks, troupe dances, psionic powers, and expanded variant classes for it. Criticism is always welcome, its an extensive document (8 pages) but i am sure you will find it worth the while. Let me know what you guys think.

PDF (bookmarked): http://www.box.net/shared/g3mfmxip7r
AdventChild
08-17-07, 12:49 AM Ok, i updated the class, now BAB is as cleric, added more masks and a new feat.
Grimmsfeld
08-17-07, 07:02 AM To be honest, there're really two classes in Complete Scoundrel, but they go in either direction, masks or dances. I'm too lazy to open a pdf right now...somebody else do that part.
AdventChild
08-17-07, 12:33 PM To be honest, there're really two classes in Complete Scoundrel, but they go in either direction, masks or dances. I'm too lazy to open a pdf right now...somebody else do that part.

Doubt anyone would check the pdf, maybe i should post this in the class threads instead.
forsaken1111
08-17-07, 04:56 PM I looked it over... here are my thoughts:

First: Why is it psionic? Other than flavor reasons, this class doesn't need psionics. It would seem to have more of a magic feel anyway. Generally psionics isn't about making temporary items which boost your abilities.

Second: Why a base class? This could easily be compressed into a 10 level prestige class for psion shapers, wilders, or even battle dancers and it wouldn't have as many dead levels. There are some levels like 7 and 11 in which nothing but your base attack bonus and power point total change. These aren't very exciting levels. Also, there is already a prestige class based around the use of enchanted masks for various effects. This seems like a psionic version of that combined with the battle dancer base class from dragon magazine.

Third: The class seems very front-loaded. You gain access to the greater masks at 9th level and after that all you get are a few dances and a poor manifester progression. To be honest I would take this class to 9 for the masks and then train psion (shaper) or some other manifesting class the rest of the way for the better power selection and power point gain. You should shift the masks to a more even distribution, and perhaps add a final level of them at 19-20 to give people more incentive to take the class to 20. Most base classes have a capstone ability at or near the end which is fun and flavorful. This helps someone who is at say level 12 to decide to take the class to full rather than multiclass out.

Fourth: Speaking of multiclass, you should put a line in on how this class would interact with the Master of Masks from complete scoundrel. Would you allow the masks from the two classes to merge? Can they be worn simultaneously?

About the Masks: The Mask of Emptiness providing force immunity at 15th level seems a bit overpowered to me. Force effects are many and varied, and to be immune to any sort for as long as you want, and for no expenditure of power points or abilities, seems unbalanced. Even spells or items which provide things such as fire immunity cost gold coins or a spell slot. There is some expenditure of resources involved. Pure force energy is supposed to be something which is hard to avoid because it exists on multiple planes simultaneously, and because it is not matter which can be destroyed, broken, or bypassed. Just think hard before you invalidate a whole set of spells and class abilities for no cost to the Harlequin.

Just my preliminary thoughts on looking it over.
AdventChild
08-17-07, 08:04 PM First: Because i really dont like magic (the system as it is, maybe in 4th that will change), second the flavor is inspired on the Eldars from warhammer and their psionic nature, not the prestige class presented in complete scoundrel which i took a look after i made the class. The way i see it, the harlequin is not your normal jester, he dances and taunts you just like any other prankster would do but with the ability to create masks out of ectoplasm and in them place a desire thought or need to achieve a certain goal, notice how all the masks just affect him, the harlequin is selfish in nature and that reflects in his masks. His dances in the other hand might not be psionic in nature, but the way i see it, its not just a magical dance, that is his form to affect a large group of people, while they are distracted by his performance he subtly messes with their minds. Note how all of them are mind affecting effects. It is not your standard psionic flavor.

Second & Third: I didnt see fitting the concept for example of a psion, who is disciplined or any other psionic class (maybe the lurk), the harlequin is free spirited and his mental abilities involve his force of personality to influence and trick the mind of others. I really didnt see this fitting, unless i would make it an arcane prestige class, and thats why we have the mask dude from CpS.

If you multiclass at 9th level you would just have access to 3 masks since the most interesting masks come after 10th level as a harlequin. He gains greater masks in the following levels 9th (3), 10th (3), 11th (2), 12th (1), 14th (1), 15th (2), 16th (1), 18th (1). Not every class requires to have an ability at each level, and the mask selections are broad and if in one level you arent gaining a mask, u are getting a dance or power, but i do see where you are coming from and ill look into that when i playtest this thing.

Fourth: No interaction whatsoever, wearing a mask occupies the head slot for magical items, that includes other masks (magical or not)

Fifth: My bad it should read, while psionically focused, though its a good ability, remember that manifesting a mask requires for you to expend your focus with the right feat u can refocus as a move action. immunity to force could be something big, but the harlequin is still vulnerable to all other energy effects (which are far more common). I might playtest it tonight and will make adjustments accordingly

Thanks for the feedback, i will take them in consideration as i see the class develop ingame.:cool:

P.S i got feedback outside from the boards 2 were possitive (just told me to reduce the bab and add more masks), others were concern about certain masks, but the mask are very circumstancial, only the lower level masks are more generic and better for interaction.
forsaken1111
08-17-07, 08:12 PM True, I forgot the masks were level dependant. Whats the point in the least/lesser/greater categories then if they're all tied to a level anyway?
AdventChild
08-17-07, 08:15 PM True, I forgot the masks were level dependant. Whats the point in the least/lesser/greater categories then if they're all tied to a level anyway?

Better organization ^^
AdventChild
08-23-07, 01:25 PM I updated the artwork so take a look at the first post. Many thanks to edward (eddie) for his help!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AdventChild 08-15-07, 12:22 PM	The harlequin is a base class i am currently working on, it uses masks created from ectoplasm and learns a few troupe dances to taunt and disrupt his enemies in battle. ive heard there is a prestige class that does something like that in complete scoundrel (the mask parts), this class was not inspired by it, i learned about it after i finished the class. Here is the sketch of the artwork of the class: http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z35/circu_2007/13-08-07_1235.jpg Finished artwork: http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z35/circu_2007/Harldrin.jpg Final Art: http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z35/circu_2007/Shira.jpg I compiled the class into a small pdf for you guys to read, i would really love feedback and suggestions for masks, troupe dances, psionic powers, and expanded variant classes for it. Criticism is always welcome, its an extensive document (8 pages) but i am sure you will find it worth the while. Let me know what you guys think. PDF (bookmarked): http://www.box.net/shared/g3mfmxip7r
AdventChild 08-17-07, 12:49 AM	Ok, i updated the class, now BAB is as cleric, added more masks and a new feat.
Grimmsfeld 08-17-07, 07:02 AM	To be honest, there're really two classes in Complete Scoundrel, but they go in either direction, masks or dances. I'm too lazy to open a pdf right now...somebody else do that part.
AdventChild 08-17-07, 12:33 PM	To be honest, there're really two classes in Complete Scoundrel, but they go in either direction, masks or dances. I'm too lazy to open a pdf right now...somebody else do that part. Doubt anyone would check the pdf, maybe i should post this in the class threads instead.
forsaken1111 08-17-07, 04:56 PM	I looked it over... here are my thoughts: First: Why is it psionic? Other than flavor reasons, this class doesn't need psionics. It would seem to have more of a magic feel anyway. Generally psionics isn't about making temporary items which boost your abilities. Second: Why a base class? This could easily be compressed into a 10 level prestige class for psion shapers, wilders, or even battle dancers and it wouldn't have as many dead levels. There are some levels like 7 and 11 in which nothing but your base attack bonus and power point total change. These aren't very exciting levels. Also, there is already a prestige class based around the use of enchanted masks for various effects. This seems like a psionic version of that combined with the battle dancer base class from dragon magazine. Third: The class seems very front-loaded. You gain access to the greater masks at 9th level and after that all you get are a few dances and a poor manifester progression. To be honest I would take this class to 9 for the masks and then train psion (shaper) or some other manifesting class the rest of the way for the better power selection and power point gain. You should shift the masks to a more even distribution, and perhaps add a final level of them at 19-20 to give people more incentive to take the class to 20. Most base classes have a capstone ability at or near the end which is fun and flavorful. This helps someone who is at say level 12 to decide to take the class to full rather than multiclass out. Fourth: Speaking of multiclass, you should put a line in on how this class would interact with the Master of Masks from complete scoundrel. Would you allow the masks from the two classes to merge? Can they be worn simultaneously? About the Masks: The Mask of Emptiness providing force immunity at 15th level seems a bit overpowered to me. Force effects are many and varied, and to be immune to any sort for as long as you want, and for no expenditure of power points or abilities, seems unbalanced. Even spells or items which provide things such as fire immunity cost gold coins or a spell slot. There is some expenditure of resources involved. Pure force energy is supposed to be something which is hard to avoid because it exists on multiple planes simultaneously, and because it is not matter which can be destroyed, broken, or bypassed. Just think hard before you invalidate a whole set of spells and class abilities for no cost to the Harlequin. Just my preliminary thoughts on looking it over.
AdventChild 08-17-07, 08:04 PM	First: Because i really dont like magic (the system as it is, maybe in 4th that will change), second the flavor is inspired on the Eldars from warhammer and their psionic nature, not the prestige class presented in complete scoundrel which i took a look after i made the class. The way i see it, the harlequin is not your normal jester, he dances and taunts you just like any other prankster would do but with the ability to create masks out of ectoplasm and in them place a desire thought or need to achieve a certain goal, notice how all the masks just affect him, the harlequin is selfish in nature and that reflects in his masks. His dances in the other hand might not be psionic in nature, but the way i see it, its not just a magical dance, that is his form to affect a large group of people, while they are distracted by his performance he subtly messes with their minds. Note how all of them are mind affecting effects. It is not your standard psionic flavor. Second & Third: I didnt see fitting the concept for example of a psion, who is disciplined or any other psionic class (maybe the lurk), the harlequin is free spirited and his mental abilities involve his force of personality to influence and trick the mind of others. I really didnt see this fitting, unless i would make it an arcane prestige class, and thats why we have the mask dude from CpS. If you multiclass at 9th level you would just have access to 3 masks since the most interesting masks come after 10th level as a harlequin. He gains greater masks in the following levels 9th (3), 10th (3), 11th (2), 12th (1), 14th (1), 15th (2), 16th (1), 18th (1). Not every class requires to have an ability at each level, and the mask selections are broad and if in one level you arent gaining a mask, u are getting a dance or power, but i do see where you are coming from and ill look into that when i playtest this thing. Fourth: No interaction whatsoever, wearing a mask occupies the head slot for magical items, that includes other masks (magical or not) Fifth: My bad it should read, while psionically focused, though its a good ability, remember that manifesting a mask requires for you to expend your focus with the right feat u can refocus as a move action. immunity to force could be something big, but the harlequin is still vulnerable to all other energy effects (which are far more common). I might playtest it tonight and will make adjustments accordingly Thanks for the feedback, i will take them in consideration as i see the class develop ingame.:cool: P.S i got feedback outside from the boards 2 were possitive (just told me to reduce the bab and add more masks), others were concern about certain masks, but the mask are very circumstancial, only the lower level masks are more generic and better for interaction.
forsaken1111 08-17-07, 08:12 PM	True, I forgot the masks were level dependant. Whats the point in the least/lesser/greater categories then if they're all tied to a level anyway?
AdventChild 08-17-07, 08:15 PM	True, I forgot the masks were level dependant. Whats the point in the least/lesser/greater categories then if they're all tied to a level anyway? Better organization ^^
AdventChild 08-23-07, 01:25 PM	I updated the artwork so take a look at the first post. Many thanks to edward (eddie) for his help!