Has this ever been addressed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Has this ever been addressed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
axenome
06-22-07, 03:31 PM A powerful Thrallherd gathers together some of his flock and manifests the power "Metaconcert".:) He takes a level 1 memeber and the metaconcert manifests the power "Mind Switch" on a willing level 1 follower. Erk:( . What stats does the former level 1 follower have:confused: ? Does he have hit points:eek: ? How far from the group of psions can he travel, and can the meta concert use psionic Teleport to Remote Viewed companions with godly pp, a massive boost to his save DCs and 60+ powers known:uh-huh:? Hell, being that the mind created by the Meta Concert lasts only 1 minute per manifestor level, the psionic entity in effect dies... Does that also extend to the body that the psionic entity is inhabitting :banghead: ? If you use True Mind switch in this fashion, do you start creating Psionic Entities that are permanent:twitch: ? When the mind is transferred into the entity, sure, nobody gets any power points back, but now you have this enormously powerful entity in the former thrall's body presumably with an outlook matching that of the conductor. Does it follow his orders or try to enthrall the Thrall herd :yuck: ?
Ugh... I feel ill... My head hurts... :surrender
Tempest Stormwind
06-22-07, 03:33 PM Metaconcert, the crux of this problem, was discussed in the FAQ at the top of the forum.
axenome
06-22-07, 04:16 PM The discussion, such as it was, was less than a paragraph and said absolutely nothing worth reading through the entire board to try and find it, so let me rephrase this: Does anyone HERE have an idea as to how to treat this? I want to get some ideas on this for something I plan to throw at my party in a few levels but it rather hinges on this to succeed. Also, while we are on the topic, can a group of metaconcerts themselves form a metaconcert? I've seen nothing that even remotely suggests they can't, which kind of scares me. *Mentally envisions 10 meta concerts forming a single giga- concert that begins forming the Voltron sword*
Rageheart
06-22-07, 04:36 PM *Mentally envisions 10 meta concerts forming a single giga- concert that begins forming the Voltron sword*

and 10 of those forming a single Tera-concert...
and 10 of those forming a single Exa-concert...

this could get ugly. :rolleyes:
Tempest Stormwind
06-22-07, 04:54 PM That's a lotta yotta. ;)

The proposed solution was to use the variant Metaconcert in UTP, which was written explicitly to solve the problems with Metaconcert while making it clearer.

I can't find my PDF copy right now and have to leave shortly, but if anyone else has it, by all means post it up. It's Open Game Content, so we don't mind, and besides, I'm the guy who wrote that version of Metaconcert, so consider this your express permission to do so.
Rageheart
06-22-07, 05:51 PM here ya go.

Metaconcert
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting, Network]
Level: Psychic warrior 5, society mind 5, telepath 5
Display: Vi, Me; see text
Manifesting Time: 1 minute
Range: 20 ft.
Effect: 20-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Power Points: 9

This is not a new power; it merely replaces the metaconcert power (from Chapter Five: Powers in the Expanded Psionics Handbook) completely.

You link your psychic might with other psionic creatures, creating a composite network more powerful than the sum of its parts. If there are no willing, psionic creatures in the area other than you when you use this power, it fails.

When you manifest this power, up to five willing, psionic creatures in the area connect with you into a metaconcert network (a "metanetwork"), a distributed, metaphysical analogue of a psionic manifester. Misty strands of glowing power link the brows of each member in a complex and shifting pattern, and a mental image of each other member appears in the minds of everyone so linked. A number of power points you designate flow from each member (including yourself) into a collective pool. If a member does not have enough power points to contribute, he drops out of the metaconcert (see below).

One individual is chosen as the metaconcert conductor by mutual consent of the other members (this is usually the manifester, but doesnt have to be). Until the power ends, this conductor directs the efforts of the network. Members of a metaconcert can continue to take actions of their own as normal without disrupting the metanetwork, provided they stay within the area (see below).

All the powers known of each member (except metaconcert) are available to the conductor through the metanetwork. While the conductor may still manifest his own powers as normal, he may instead choose to manifest a power from the metanetwork instead of from his own powers known. If he does so, he must use the power point pool of the metanetwork and may not use any of his feats or class features to modify the manifestation (although items are permitted), but he also gains numerous benefits.

When manifesting a power from the metanetwork, his manifester level increases by one for each other metanetwork member (for instance, the normal maximum membership of five members besides the conductor increases the conductor's manifester level by five). If the conductor manifests a power with an XP cost from the metanetwork, the XP cost is divided evenly between all members (with the conductor taking the remainder if the cost can't be divided evenly). It is obvious to an outsider when the conductor manifests from the metanetwork, as arcs of light pulse between the various members in a scintillating pattern, streaming to the conductor as his power manifests -- this display cannot be hidden.

The metanetwork also supports its members. Each member of the metanetwork gains a bonus on saving throws made against spells or powers equal to the number of other members, as the metanetwork distributes incoming magical energy about its nodes. If a spell or power would deal damage or ability damage to the conductor, he may choose to instead distribute it evenly between himself and all willing members. An individual member may decline recieving damage this way on a case-by-case basis (for example, if a metaconcert consists of the conductor and four other members, one of whom is not willing to receive damage at this time, the conductor may split the incoming damage between himself and the three willing members). Damage split this way is typeless and empathic in nature. This splitting takes place prior to the effects of other powers or abilities that lessen damage, such as energy resistance or the intellect fortress power. Spells and powers that are not subject to power resistance cannot have their damage or ability damage split this way, though the saving throw bonus still applies.

Once the metanetwork forms, the members must remain within the power's area, and as a group can move at half the slowest member's speed on the conductor's turn. This counts as a move action for each member (that is, if the group moves, each member is treated as having used a move action on their next turn). If a member moves outside the area (whether willingly or involuntarily), that individual drops out of the group, and the power point pool of the metanetwork is instantly recalculated.

All members who leave before a metaconcert ends or is dismissed reclaim a number of power points equal to the metanetwork's current power point pool divided by the number of members.

That same number of points is removed from the metanetwork's power point pool. If the conductor drops out, the power ends. When a metaconcert ends normally or is dismissed, remaining power points in the pool are divided among all the members (the conductor receives the remainder if the points cant be divided evenly). No creature can leave a metaconcert with more power points than they had when they entered it -- surplus points dissipate as harmless light radiating from the creature's eyes.

If a society mind manifests this power, it benefits normally from the Spirit of Many class feature, except that the additional augment has no effect (as metaconcert is an emanation, not a targeted effect).

Augment: For every additional power point you spend, this powers duration increases by 1 minute. For every 2 additional power points spent this way, the maximum number of members of the metanetwork increases by one, and the range and radius of the area of effect increase by 5 ft.
Racinante
06-22-07, 05:56 PM Metaconcert grants the following:

A power point pool is generated from which to manifest more powerful powers. The manifester determines how many points come from each contributor.
The group chooses a person (conductor) to make the decisions for the group and to manifest the powers. This is generally the manifester who has the highest level.
All powers known by individuals are known by the conductor and usable (provided that the conductor is of sufficient level to manifest them).
Manifestations and psi-like abilities gain a +1/participant bonus to save DCs.
If the group is targeted (or by inference any of its members), the group gets a +1/participant bonus on its saving throw (in this case, I would use the conductor's saving throws as the base).
Ability damage is divided amongst the members as determined by the conductor.
XP costs are divided equally among participants, with the conductor paying any odd points.
Movement restrictions of the group and its members
Members removed from the group reduce the power point pool evenly (and of course no longer provide their +1 bonus to saves and DCs).
If the conductor drops out, the power ends.
When the power ends, remaining PP are distributed evenly among the remaining members.

So, to your question.

What happens when a metaconcert manifests mind switch?

The conductor changes minds with the human volunteer.
The metaconcert ends.

In a nutshell, metaconcert grants the following to the manifester and the members of the metaconcert:

+1/member on DCs
+1/member on saves
potentially a larger number of powers known
possibly a temporarily higher number of power points to work with

All of this for a 5th level power and 9 friends is very nice. Also note that if the manifesters are of different disciplines, you could have access to any power available.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
axenome 06-22-07, 03:31 PM	A powerful Thrallherd gathers together some of his flock and manifests the power "Metaconcert".:) He takes a level 1 memeber and the metaconcert manifests the power "Mind Switch" on a willing level 1 follower. Erk:( . What stats does the former level 1 follower have:confused: ? Does he have hit points:eek: ? How far from the group of psions can he travel, and can the meta concert use psionic Teleport to Remote Viewed companions with godly pp, a massive boost to his save DCs and 60+ powers known:uh-huh:? Hell, being that the mind created by the Meta Concert lasts only 1 minute per manifestor level, the psionic entity in effect dies... Does that also extend to the body that the psionic entity is inhabitting :banghead: ? If you use True Mind switch in this fashion, do you start creating Psionic Entities that are permanent:twitch: ? When the mind is transferred into the entity, sure, nobody gets any power points back, but now you have this enormously powerful entity in the former thrall's body presumably with an outlook matching that of the conductor. Does it follow his orders or try to enthrall the Thrall herd :yuck: ? Ugh... I feel ill... My head hurts... :surrender
Tempest Stormwind 06-22-07, 03:33 PM	Metaconcert, the crux of this problem, was discussed in the FAQ at the top of the forum.
axenome 06-22-07, 04:16 PM	The discussion, such as it was, was less than a paragraph and said absolutely nothing worth reading through the entire board to try and find it, so let me rephrase this: Does anyone HERE have an idea as to how to treat this? I want to get some ideas on this for something I plan to throw at my party in a few levels but it rather hinges on this to succeed. Also, while we are on the topic, can a group of metaconcerts themselves form a metaconcert? I've seen nothing that even remotely suggests they can't, which kind of scares me. Mentally envisions 10 meta concerts forming a single giga- concert that begins forming the Voltron sword
Rageheart 06-22-07, 04:36 PM	Mentally envisions 10 meta concerts forming a single giga- concert that begins forming the Voltron sword and 10 of those forming a single Tera-concert... and 10 of those forming a single Exa-concert... this could get ugly. :rolleyes:
Tempest Stormwind 06-22-07, 04:54 PM	That's a lotta yotta. ;) The proposed solution was to use the variant Metaconcert in UTP, which was written explicitly to solve the problems with Metaconcert while making it clearer. I can't find my PDF copy right now and have to leave shortly, but if anyone else has it, by all means post it up. It's Open Game Content, so we don't mind, and besides, I'm the guy who wrote that version of Metaconcert, so consider this your express permission to do so.
Rageheart 06-22-07, 05:51 PM	here ya go. Metaconcert Telepathy [Mind-Affecting, Network] Level: Psychic warrior 5, society mind 5, telepath 5 Display: Vi, Me; see text Manifesting Time: 1 minute Range: 20 ft. Effect: 20-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you Duration: 1 min./level (D) Power Points: 9 This is not a new power; it merely replaces the metaconcert power (from Chapter Five: Powers in the Expanded Psionics Handbook) completely. You link your psychic might with other psionic creatures, creating a composite network more powerful than the sum of its parts. If there are no willing, psionic creatures in the area other than you when you use this power, it fails. When you manifest this power, up to five willing, psionic creatures in the area connect with you into a metaconcert network (a "metanetwork"), a distributed, metaphysical analogue of a psionic manifester. Misty strands of glowing power link the brows of each member in a complex and shifting pattern, and a mental image of each other member appears in the minds of everyone so linked. A number of power points you designate flow from each member (including yourself) into a collective pool. If a member does not have enough power points to contribute, he drops out of the metaconcert (see below). One individual is chosen as the metaconcert conductor by mutual consent of the other members (this is usually the manifester, but doesnt have to be). Until the power ends, this conductor directs the efforts of the network. Members of a metaconcert can continue to take actions of their own as normal without disrupting the metanetwork, provided they stay within the area (see below). All the powers known of each member (except metaconcert) are available to the conductor through the metanetwork. While the conductor may still manifest his own powers as normal, he may instead choose to manifest a power from the metanetwork instead of from his own powers known. If he does so, he must use the power point pool of the metanetwork and may not use any of his feats or class features to modify the manifestation (although items are permitted), but he also gains numerous benefits. When manifesting a power from the metanetwork, his manifester level increases by one for each other metanetwork member (for instance, the normal maximum membership of five members besides the conductor increases the conductor's manifester level by five). If the conductor manifests a power with an XP cost from the metanetwork, the XP cost is divided evenly between all members (with the conductor taking the remainder if the cost can't be divided evenly). It is obvious to an outsider when the conductor manifests from the metanetwork, as arcs of light pulse between the various members in a scintillating pattern, streaming to the conductor as his power manifests -- this display cannot be hidden. The metanetwork also supports its members. Each member of the metanetwork gains a bonus on saving throws made against spells or powers equal to the number of other members, as the metanetwork distributes incoming magical energy about its nodes. If a spell or power would deal damage or ability damage to the conductor, he may choose to instead distribute it evenly between himself and all willing members. An individual member may decline recieving damage this way on a case-by-case basis (for example, if a metaconcert consists of the conductor and four other members, one of whom is not willing to receive damage at this time, the conductor may split the incoming damage between himself and the three willing members). Damage split this way is typeless and empathic in nature. This splitting takes place prior to the effects of other powers or abilities that lessen damage, such as energy resistance or the intellect fortress power. Spells and powers that are not subject to power resistance cannot have their damage or ability damage split this way, though the saving throw bonus still applies. Once the metanetwork forms, the members must remain within the power's area, and as a group can move at half the slowest member's speed on the conductor's turn. This counts as a move action for each member (that is, if the group moves, each member is treated as having used a move action on their next turn). If a member moves outside the area (whether willingly or involuntarily), that individual drops out of the group, and the power point pool of the metanetwork is instantly recalculated. All members who leave before a metaconcert ends or is dismissed reclaim a number of power points equal to the metanetwork's current power point pool divided by the number of members. That same number of points is removed from the metanetwork's power point pool. If the conductor drops out, the power ends. When a metaconcert ends normally or is dismissed, remaining power points in the pool are divided among all the members (the conductor receives the remainder if the points cant be divided evenly). No creature can leave a metaconcert with more power points than they had when they entered it -- surplus points dissipate as harmless light radiating from the creature's eyes. If a society mind manifests this power, it benefits normally from the Spirit of Many class feature, except that the additional augment has no effect (as metaconcert is an emanation, not a targeted effect). Augment: For every additional power point you spend, this powers duration increases by 1 minute. For every 2 additional power points spent this way, the maximum number of members of the metanetwork increases by one, and the range and radius of the area of effect increase by 5 ft.
Racinante 06-22-07, 05:56 PM	Metaconcert grants the following: A power point pool is generated from which to manifest more powerful powers. The manifester determines how many points come from each contributor. The group chooses a person (conductor) to make the decisions for the group and to manifest the powers. This is generally the manifester who has the highest level. All powers known by individuals are known by the conductor and usable (provided that the conductor is of sufficient level to manifest them). Manifestations and psi-like abilities gain a +1/participant bonus to save DCs. If the group is targeted (or by inference any of its members), the group gets a +1/participant bonus on its saving throw (in this case, I would use the conductor's saving throws as the base). Ability damage is divided amongst the members as determined by the conductor. XP costs are divided equally among participants, with the conductor paying any odd points. Movement restrictions of the group and its members Members removed from the group reduce the power point pool evenly (and of course no longer provide their +1 bonus to saves and DCs). If the conductor drops out, the power ends. When the power ends, remaining PP are distributed evenly among the remaining members. So, to your question. What happens when a metaconcert manifests mind switch? The conductor changes minds with the human volunteer. The metaconcert ends. In a nutshell, metaconcert grants the following to the manifester and the members of the metaconcert: +1/member on DCs +1/member on saves potentially a larger number of powers known possibly a temporarily higher number of power points to work with All of this for a 5th level power and 9 friends is very nice. Also note that if the manifesters are of different disciplines, you could have access to any power available.