Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Soahc 07-05-07, 12:16 AM	I came across a thread " http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=874509&highlight=Psychic+Warrior and what I was amazed at was that these people briefly agreed that the psywar is one of the most balanced classes in the game! Now come on! I love the PsyWar to much for this to be said about him. I believe he's in the top 3 best classes 1.Druid 2.Psychic Warrior 3.Cleric To say he's balanced is in insult... or possibly they are just being sarcastic in saying he's so amazing that everything else has to be broken just to keep up, I'm not sure. Need some input please, maybe your view on the article, what you believe the three best classes are, and could someone please tell me how to make the urls I put up be displayed as a single word. I.e Click me= send you to the link on top.. hope you understood that.
Nom 07-05-07, 12:26 AM	More potent than the Cleric? You're kidding, right? Cleric vs PsyWar, the cleric has same HD, same skills, same BAB, same Fort, better Will, same Ref. So the cleric is slightly ahead there, but doesn't get martial weapon proficiency. The PsyWar gets feats (total 8) instead of turning and two bonus domain abilities (call it 4-5 feats ahead). But the cleric is a full caster and the PsyWar is a half caster (well, "less than half" caster if we simply compare power points to the psion :) ). 8 feats and martial weapons can't make up that difference in 3rd edition, even if they should.
Salla 07-05-07, 12:27 AM	INow come on! I love the PsyWar to much for this to be said about him. I believe he's in the top 3 best classes 1.Druid 2.Psychic Warrior 3.Cleric To say he's balanced is in insult... No, saying a class is balanced is a COMPLIMENT.
Tempest Stormwind 07-05-07, 12:28 AM	Um, the psywar has nothing on the cleric. Compared to the psywar, the cleric has: Same HD Less MAD Same skill points Same armor proficiency Same base attack bonus Two good saves as opposed to one More "power points" More "powers known" Faster "max power level" progression, to a max of 9th level spells More diverse "power list" with strong (stronger?) buffs, actual utility spells, some blasts, some smites, healing, and similar. Worse basic armor proficiency unless you're dealing with the War domain No bonus feats, but two domain abilities (which are pretty similar) and Turn Undead (which opens up divine feats, see below) Better support in almost every splatbook, including Divine Metamagic (which makes his feats essentially irrelevant since his buffs are so good) ...Yeah, he's got nothing. The psywar is practically one of the most perfectly designed classes in the game. There's reason to take it to 20, there's lots of options for multiclassing, there's a ton of characters it can represent, and it can remain competitive in nearly all of the above.
Soahc 07-05-07, 01:04 AM	Wow never looked at it that way, the PsyWar get owned compared to the cleric. Tempest if you could please enlighten me on what you believe the top 3 classes are, I'd be very grateful, no need for deep explanation, maybe just what you did in summarizing the almighty druid! If I sound sarcastic at all, please believe me I'm not intending too. You are one of few members I actually take what they say to heart. So please tell me what you believe are the top three best classes are, thankyou.
AntiDjinn 07-05-07, 01:15 AM	The psychic warrior is not a half-caster. His powers max out at level 6 and he has a slower power progression and relatively few power points, but his manifester level = his psychic warrior level. He does not cast at half his level the way a ranger or paladin does. If you want to dispel a buff used by a 20th level paladin, it isn't all that hard; it is cast at level 10 so even an opponent half his level has a fair shot at it. By contrast, when you want to dispel a power manifest by a 20th level psychic warrior you need to beat ML 20. It is no easier than dispelling a power manifest by a psion of the same level.
Tempest Stormwind 07-05-07, 01:21 AM	Wow never looked at it that way, the PsyWar get owned compared to the cleric. Tempest if you could please enlighten me on what you believe the top 3 classes are, I'd be very grateful, no need for deep explanation, maybe just what you did in summarizing the almighty druid! If I sound sarcastic at all, please believe me I'm not intending too. You are one of few members I actually take what they say to heart. So please tell me what you believe are the top three best classes are, thankyou. I don't rate classes. I rate players. I can, and have, SCHOOLED fellow players by using monks. And monks are actually rather weak (they get a lot of nifty abilities, but lack muscle to back them up and none of the abilities work together. It's like being given an I-beam, Lego bricks, a Meccano wrench, and a few K'Nex connectors and being told "build something powerful"). Furthermore, different classes excel at different things. I can make a third-level character using traditionally "lower-tier" classes (Bard, marshal (the published one, not my own fix) and warlock) that requires the DM to houserule it or to use nothing but animal-intelligence foes against us, lest they just add to my growing army. (How many level 3 foes do you know that can make the DC 37 or so Will save needed to resist a "shut up and listen to me" effect, especially when I can't fail my Diplomacy check to turn them at least into indifferent?) Player matters more than class. If you want a poorly-balanced crutch of a class that's strong enough to rock in most situations regardless of your own ineptitude, you can't beat a primary divine spellcaster. (Literally, with my first cleric, I was competitive and powerful, one of the best characters in the team. Then, WITH NO BUILD CHANGES EXCEPT DECIDING TO PREPARE DIFFERENT SPELLS, that same cleric went from "valued and powerful member of the team" to "Yeah, leave it to Kessen (my cleric's name), I'll be on vacation". They're *that* good.) By the way, if you didn't notice, I was the one on the other thread (the one you claimed to have read) that said they were balanced first. Why the sudden change of heart when I reiterated it here?
runestar 07-05-07, 01:26 AM	Perhaps it would help if you would care to elaborate on why you think the psywarrior is overpowered?
TheCobra 07-05-07, 01:36 AM	Furthermore, different classes excel at different things. I can make a third-level character using traditionally "lower-tier" classes (Bard, marshal (the published one, not my own fix) and warlock) that requires the DM to houserule it or to use nothing but animal-intelligence foes against us, lest they just add to my growing army. Eh, applying circumstance modifiers isn't a house rule. Also, someone might eventually here about your ability to enchant people with words and decide to take you out before you get the chance to speak.
Tempest Stormwind 07-05-07, 01:47 AM	Eh, applying circumstance modifiers isn't a house rule. Also, someone might eventually here about your ability to enchant people with words and decide to take you out before you get the chance to speak. Soothing Voice (Races of Destiny) + tripped-out Diplomacy modifier. The DC is not affected by circumstance bonuses or penalties, it's just a check result, not a check result in a particular circumstance. Besides, the average CR 3 Will save across many D&D books is +3 with the highest being +7. That's a LOT of circumstance penalties that the DM has to reach through just to hope his monster can succeed on less than a 20. (For the record, I forgot synergy bonuses; the DC is closer to 43.) For the record, at level 4, I can also take 10 on this in any circumstance and do it as a standard action at no penalty. The houserule in question is that "Diplomacy is borked with fixed DCs even with circumstance modifiers" or similar. By level 5 it's almost impossible for me to NOT convert someone to Helpful within a few moments of speaking to them. By level 8 or so I can get them to fanatic. Doesn't matter if they're Joe Commoner or Asmodeus, if they're not a player character and if they have a language, they're vulnerable to this stunt (and sometimes even if they LACK a language, given the right spells). It's not the class. It's the player. That was my point.
TheCobra 07-05-07, 02:09 AM	The DC is not affected by circumstance bonuses or penalties, it's just a check result, not a check result in a particular circumstance. For the Soothing Voice ability, sure. But that alone won't get you an army. It only clams people down. Also, remember that it only works on creatures within thirty feet. That's a serious limitation. The houserule in question is that "Diplomacy is borked with fixed DCs even with circumstance modifiers" or similar. But circumstance modifiers are basically whatever the DM wants anyway. See page 30 of the DMG. And friendly NPCs are far from mind-controlled servants. Doesn't matter if they're Joe Commoner or Asmodeus, if they're not a player character and if they have a language, they're vulnerable to this stunt (and sometimes even if they LACK a language, given the right spells). Only if the DM chooses not to use a circumstance modifier on the DC. I think most DMs would at least rule that making Asmodeus an 5th-level character's buddy is nearly impossible. So that's at least a +20 to the DC.
turalisj 07-05-07, 02:16 AM	I don't rate classes. I rate players. I can, and have, SCHOOLED fellow players by using monks. And monks are actually rather weak (they get a lot of nifty abilities, but lack muscle to back them up and none of the abilities work together. It's like being given an I-beam, Lego bricks, a Meccano wrench, and a few K'Nex connectors and being told "build something powerful"). McGuyver could make a railgun out of that stuff. Or an Artificer could. :P Sorry, had to be the first to say it. Btw Tempest, you are in my Sig Hall of Gods. right next to Vorpal Tribble and Szatany.
Tempest Stormwind 07-05-07, 02:19 AM	For the Soothing Voice ability, sure. But that alone won't get you an army. It only clams people down. Also, remember that it only works on creatures within thirty feet. That's a serious limitation. Distance, yes. But soothing voice guarantees that they won't be slicing my head off. It's basically a "Listen to me" that they can't resist. It's the subsequent check that gets them at least indifferent, and likely more at that level.And friendly NPCs are far from mind-controlled servants. True. But they aren't opponents, and they are Helpful, meaning they'll take risks to help me. That's really all that I need (I used "army" as shorthand earlier for dramatic emphasis).Only if the DM chooses not to use a circumstance modifier on the DC. I think most DMs would at least rule that making Asmodeus an 5th-level character's buddy is nearly impossible. So that's at least a +20 to the DC.By the time Asmodeus is anything relevant to the party besides deus ex machina, +20 DC will be as nothing. I at LEAST should have a +80 modifier at the time, meaning taking 10 gives me enough to convert "practically impossible" hostile foes to Helpful. And I will likely have more than that at this point. At level 5, it'd be difficult (I could get him at least Indifferent without much of a roll, or Friendly with a good one), but seriously, what DM introduces Asmodeus himself to a freakin' level 5 party? Especially if he's RPing Asmodeus as he's written? (I seriously hate all the planar garbage, including the hierarchy of hell, but that's beside the point.) We're wandering from the topic, though. (Turalisj: No offense to a guy who spends that much time on his hobby, but Sztany's work is overrated (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=879725).)
TheCobra 07-05-07, 02:30 AM	By the time Asmodeus is anything relevant to the party besides deus ex machina, +20 DC will be as nothing. Well, there's no limit to the number of times the DM can increase the DC by 20 or give you a -20 penalty. +20, because he's an archdevil. +20 more, because he's the most powerful of them. -20 for you, because, at level 5 or 8, you're not powerful enough to lick his boots. You get the idea. The DMG leaves it all up to the DM. Diplomacy is probably still a bit overpowered as written. Asmodeus is a bad example, because it's very easy to come up with plausible reasons for huge circumstance modifiers. We're wandering from the topic, though. Yeah, that's for sure.
turalisj 07-05-07, 02:30 AM	I can think of two volunteer groups in at least U.S history that had very charismatic leaders: the Rough Riders under Theodore Roosevelt, and the Flying Tigers under Claire Chennault..... (yeah, they probably are, but they are still cool.... I stick to making attempts at templates and races....)
BloodSpill 07-05-07, 03:32 AM	And the 'me too' to complete thread derailment. The Doctor (Doctor Who) definitely has that Soothing Voice ability. On topic! Summary is: There are three levels on the scale of class quality. 1. Broken-good (too good, requires little effort to make) E.g. Clerics, Druids, Wizards 2. Balanced (can be good or bad, but generally won't be useless) E.g. Rogues, Psiwarriors, Barbarians, Psion! 3. Broken-bad (requires extra skill to make viable) E.g. Bards, Monks, Marshals, Paladins, Fighters And "Balanced" is a compliment. NB: The above list is for demonstration purposes and is not definitive or even "accurate".
Nite_shade 07-05-07, 03:33 AM	Off-topic indeed, but Tempest, I'm curious if you have a recommended fix for Diplomacy.
turalisj 07-05-07, 03:35 AM	Where would Wilders and Soulknives fit? And Hexblades, Samurai, Swashbucklers, Warlocks, Wu Jen, Warmages, Favored Souls, etcetera. :D
Lokiyn 07-05-07, 03:55 AM	as the train mover further off track, Diplomacy as a skill is going to be near impossible to fix, Like Truenameing, its either going to suck (can't make the checks) or be over powered (boost the skills into the sky with various things) One fix i've seen but never tried, was the implimentation of social combat, It was basically taking the combat rules, and reworking them to use social attributes rather than physical. HP, was your base skills + your charisma mod each level, Ac involved ranks in sense motive and reputation + Charisma Mod Attacks, involved Bluff diplomacy and intimidate (depending on the action) There were the beginnings of social tactics, such as "grapple" which involved social status and reputation rather than diplomacy (representing the ability of say a noble to take down a commoner even if the commoner could talk better) I can't remember where i saw it, but i'll keep a lookout.
Millenia 07-05-07, 04:00 AM	Off-topic indeed, but Tempest, I'm curious if you have a recommended fix for Diplomacy. Well, it's not by Tempest, but there is Rich Burlew's fix (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html). ^^;a
CrimsonDeath 07-05-07, 12:08 PM	McGuyver could make a railgun out of that stuff. Or an Artificer could. :P Are you saying that MacGuyver is an Artificer? There were the beginnings of social tactics, such as "grapple" which involved social status and reputation rather than diplomacy (representing the ability of say a noble to take down a commoner even if the commoner could talk better) So... Reputation was like a social "size category"?
munin 07-05-07, 01:19 PM	...there is Rich Burlew's fix (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html). I like the ideas he presents, especially his relationship and risk modifiers, and I've gone back to look at it a few times over the years. But I don't like his use of the target's level to determine DC. It should remain an opposed Diplomacy check. If a 5th-level baron hasn't invested any skill points in Diplomacy, then he should hire a 5th-level expert to do his negotiating for him. But he could still be sweet-talked if someone got him alone. Changing someone's attitude should also be seen as a negotiation. What are you offering to make them like you better? It might be buying a round of drinks, offering information or a bribe, or a common cause. But if you've changed their attitude to friendly, but then ask them to do something dangerous, it's another negotiation (but with Rich's friendly bonus). Rich's modifiers cap out at +10. I think they should go up to +20. Getting someone to accept a horrible deal just by talking should be a delta-20 task (you need to exceed their Diplomacy check by 20+, convincing someone with average Charisma and no Diplomacy ranks that taking a horrible deal would be a good idea would then be a reasonable challenge for a mid-level diplomat). Same thing with getting your nemesis to accept an otherwise reasonable deal. Getting your nemesis to accept a horrible deal should be a delta-40 task.
Fleem 07-05-07, 04:58 PM	"Balanced" is such a loaded term (ironically). Psychic Warrior has a great list of buffing powers that work well to turn a character into a combat monster. If that's the most important thing in your game (usually is), then Psychic Warrior could be seen as overpowered. If it's a social game, he'll be a bit lost. But then, so will most characters. Having said that, I've seen badly designed characters of many classes, including Psychic Warriors, Clerics, and Druids (*fondly remembers a druid that usually tree-shaped at the beginning of combat*). As a side note, I've never seen Diplomacy used as written. At best, it becomes a general gauge of how effective a character's social interaction is. At worst, I've seen it used as a club to punish any player who has his character actually talk to people without putting ranks in that (likely cross-class) skill; for characters who did put points in the skill, its only game effect was being able to speak without being sneered at. And then the GM wonders why the party isn't into role-playing...
Nom 07-05-07, 06:41 PM	Worse basic armor proficiency unless you're dealing with the War domainYou mean weapon prof, right? Both the PsW and Clr are proficient with all armours and shields (except tower). The psychic warrior is not a half-caster.Sorry; loose terminology. The PsW is in the same category as bards and artificiers, having a full CL progression but limited spell progression. The spellcasting of half-CL classes is significantly less than half that of a full caster, taking both a 50% CL hit and a severe spell progression hit.
Scion of Coldshard 07-05-07, 06:58 PM	I give the psychic warrior extra pp. This allows him to use an amount per battle that I am more comfortable with. Here is the equation, and it is fairly simple: (Normal base+1)*1.5 (round down) As an example, at level 10 with a 14 wisdom a normal psychic warrior would have 37 pp. Over the course of a normal 4 encounter day that basically means 9 pp per encounter. With my change the psychic warrior above would have 52 pp which allows for 13 pp per encounter. At level 10, and all levels really, actions are very precious. Since the psychic warrior is big on buffing he will likely have up a couple of long lasting buffs and want to toss an attack power and an extra buff during combat. Several powers have built in augmentations for making them swift/immediate actions, a good example of one that a psychic warrior might want is expansion. Now, a swift action expansion costs 7pp. The normal psychic warrior would likely be out of pp to spend on this battle at that point, assuming he is worried about fights later on. With my change he is still in a position to use another power without worrying too much or he could do the same thing as the first psychic warrior but not be nearly as hosed if he is targeted by a dispel magic/psionics as he has extra pp to refresh his buffs later on. It still isnt quite right but it is better in my eyes. I would prefer a 'per encounter' type of resource for them personally ;) Focus does that a little bit in some ways though.
turalisj 07-05-07, 07:16 PM	Are you saying that MacGuyver is an Artificer? Yes I am. And batman is a rouge with levels in artificer and aristocrat.
highbulp 07-06-07, 01:57 AM	I think my favorite fix to Diplomacy is to redo the skill system entirely. Say, a la the Saga system. Where skills are always a function of level (so if you are 20th level you always have SOME skill) and cannot be easily boosted beyond a +5 for Skill Focus. So there is a more definite cap on the skill bonus (built into the system itself), meaning that the range is more limited and fun little quirks like the Diplomancer don't show up. At least that's how I understand it anyway. My SW group hasn't actually run any sessions with Saga yet :p.
Lycanthromancer 07-06-07, 01:25 PM	Yes I am. And batman is a rouge with levels in artificer and aristocrat.Batman is a rouge? http://static.flickr.com/47/108585087_a5d02e9663.jpg I guess he is.
lears_fool 07-06-07, 04:45 PM	You mean weapon prof, right? Both the PsW and Clr are proficient with all armours and shields (except tower). Sorry; loose terminology. The PsW is in the same category as bards and artificiers, having a full CL progression but limited spell progression. The spellcasting of half-CL classes is significantly less than half that of a full caster, taking both a 50% CL hit and a severe spell progression hit. Actually, the Psiwar is the exception there too. Remember that lots of psi powers scale very effectively up to high levels (though at cost), while most Bard spells don't take as much advantage of the free scaling as wizard spells do. In practice, I've noticed that decently run Psychic Warriors become very good at using their cheaper powers and pure combat skills during typical situations and being very capable of pulling of some impressive tricks when they feel the need to pump their power points into something. I've got to agree that generally PsyWars are one of the best balanced classes out there
Nom 07-09-07, 12:00 AM	Actually, the Psiwar is the exception there too. Remember that lots of psi powers scale very effectively up to high levels (though at cost), while most Bard spells don't take as much advantage of the free scaling as wizard spells do.Exception to what? :confused: I think that what you're saying is that low-level psionic powers often maintain utility at higher levels better than magical powers due to the way augmentation mechanics work. Yes? Which seems true by inspection, though I haven't actually tried either at very high level.
InkBlot 07-09-07, 12:47 AM	All I know is, grease and entangling ectoplasm are still awesome after 15th level. I once played a 14th level monk and suddenly multiclassed into psion. Grease and entangling ectoplasm were my bread and butter.
Archtyrant Terevoth 07-09-07, 12:25 PM	Well, it's not by Tempest, but there is Rich Burlew's fix (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html). ^^;a That's a terrible "fix", because it doesn't actually fix anything. Crazy high diplomacy scores still let you abuse every NPC you encounter and in Burlew's system, it's possibly even worse than the existing one, because you can get them to agree to any deal you want, as opposed to just making them friendly.
Archtyrant Terevoth 07-09-07, 12:30 PM	Regarding the psywarrior, he's not nearly as versatile as a cleric and really, if you're looking for a buff monster, psion/fighter/slayer is the better way to go. You end up with more PP. I wouldn't say the psywarrior is well balanced, mainly because psionic buffs are poorly balanced. At low levels as a psywarrior, you basically can't do a heck of a lot, and end up looking like a fighter with cleric BaB and HP. Psi-buffs just aren't any good at low levels. At high levels of course, psibuffs are incredible, due to augmentation. Not only does your buff augment in terms of the bonus it gets, but also in the duration. So instead of wasting a standard action for a crappy +1 to hit, you're using up an action out of combat (effectively a non-action) for a +4 or +5 to hit.
Fafnir 07-09-07, 01:02 PM	At low levels BAB has a low impact (-1 to hit) and the bonus [Psionic] feats make up for it. Being psionic alone is a huge bonus at levels 1-3.
Enchanter_Tom 07-09-07, 03:41 PM	That's a terrible "fix", because it doesn't actually fix anything. Crazy high diplomacy scores still let you abuse every NPC you encounter and in Burlew's system, it's possibly even worse than the existing one, because you can get them to agree to any deal you want, as opposed to just making them friendly. I disagree--Rich Burlew's version gives significantly more power to the DM rather than just a set DC.