Help Deciding Class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help Deciding Class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GrandmasterSea
04-25-08, 12:38 PM So i am entering a game with a lvl 10 ECL. I have decided that I want a psionic PC but havent really decided where to go with it. I think I have it narrowed down to either the telepathy or the shaper.

Any opinions or idea help in fleshing it out?

I am looking for the most mechanically effective and RP fun.
foxtail
04-25-08, 12:57 PM The telepath gets a skill set that's quite useful in social situations, and access to the telepathy discipline list gives you charm, dominate and a lot of other fun stuff. Mindlink is a rediculously useful power. On the other hand, nearly all of those powers become completely useless when you're up against constructs, undead, or other creatures immune to mind-affecting things.

I've never played a shaper, so someone else will have to speak up for that side.
GrandmasterSea
04-25-08, 01:08 PM the telepathy looked the most fun to play. especially out of combat. I chose the shaper cause I had a character idea of this recluse that only has relationships with his "children" or astral contructs. astral constructs are pretty intensive and max out at CR 10, even if I reach lvl 20.

thanks for the advice on the telepathy. What do you think of thrallherd as a PRC for a mainly good campaign?
Lycanthromancer
04-25-08, 01:09 PM Shapers are almost as Cha-centric as a telepath, what with access to Bluff, Disguise, and Use Psionic Device, and can act as an infiltrator in a pinch (see changeling shaper for yet more infiltration fun).

Plus, shapers are the ultimate utility-box: psionic minor creation and astral construct alone can handle so many situations by themselves that it's not even funny. Shapers are best for people who like to think outside the box, since good knowledge of the rules and a generous helping of cleverness can turn a good subclass into an excellent one. They're also great for conserving power points, especially if you choose your feats correctly (doubly so with the 3.5 constructor prestige class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) and the Boost Construct feat).

Both excel in games where infiltration and stealth are high-priority. The telepath uses his mind-control powers and social skills to reach his mission goals, whereas the shaper can, to an extent, do the same. However, telepaths are sitting ducks against anything resistant or immune to mind-affecting effects, whereas the shaper's constructs are capable of matching any kind of opponent (especially useful against corporeal undead).

If you know you're going to be in a political game, or your group RPs a lot with NPCs (generally humanoid), telepaths are great. If it's a dungeoncrawl, shapers are your best friends. Anything else is pretty much a tie.

[edit] Astral constructs are more powerful than they might seem at first glance, max CR of 10 or no. After all, you can tailor your constructs to whatever encounter you have at any given time, raising their effective CR by 6 or more. Don't judge the CR by the in-book description; judge it by how you can tailor it to your encounters.

Also, thrallherd is excellent, but the best way to go isn't telepath, oddly enough, since it gives you two of the telepath's best powers (psionic charm and psionic dominate) for free. This particular PrC works best if you have your DM's permission to use, since it's essentially a boosted Leadership feat. If the DM okays it and lets you build your followers and cohorts, it's an excellent class (even if all you manage to get is a bunch of 1st level followers). Lots of fun.
GrandmasterSea
04-25-08, 01:36 PM the shaper sounds really interesting the way you are describing it, however, i am not the most familar with the rules. I know enough to get around, but i usually am consulting some kind of 3.5 book every session.

I dont know much about the game, just entering it late, so i dont know what it is like, but i am guessing prety combat intensive.

Mechanically speaking, how would i go about getting the best constructs possible? Feats? Menu Options? Types? I am little green when it comes to psionic constructs.
GrandmasterSea
04-25-08, 01:43 PM I have to float the idea by the DM, but i dont see him denying the PrC especially since it's in a 3.5 book and not a drag mag PrC. so then what are you thinking of disipline? shaper thrallherd? kineticist thrallherd?
Lycanthromancer
04-25-08, 01:56 PM The_Ditto made a spreadsheet for astral constructs which you can download here. (http://dot.ditto.googlepages.com/excel) You can use it to dynamically create constructs on the fly, so long as you have a computer nearby. You might be able to use it on a PDA, as well, though I'm not sure how well that would work.

As for the best constructs possible, the constructor class does it admirably. Other than that, the Overchannel feat (to raise your manifester level such that you get better duration, higher dispel checks against them, and to spend more power points to get higher level constructs), and Boost Construct for more menu options (remember that you can trade a high level menu item for two lower ones, and you can trade those for two even-lower menu items), and Extend Power to increase your constructs' duration (at the expense of a higher level construct and your psionic focus) are the only feats in the XPH that really boost constructs. There are options outside of the XPH, but most of them tend to get cheesy (such as Link Power, from Complete Psionic).

You can also get powers to do interesting stunts on your constructs, such as fate link (kill your 1 HD construct, and the fate link'd foe gets a negative level), dimension swap (bounce around the battlefield like a rubber ball), and energy wall (for bull-rushing constructs to cause energy damage each round).

Also, if you have some meatshields in the party, try tossing out a 1st level construct to both flank and Aid Another. +4 to hit for one ally is really nice for a mere 1 power point. If a +4 isn't needed, a bit of extra damage + flanking is still quite nice (assuming your 1 HD construct can hit, that is).

As for building your constructs, take plenty of Knowledge skills and roll each battle to have the DM give you some information on your foes' strengths and weaknesses. If a creature has a low Strength score, for instance, tossing out a massive construct with a freakishly high Strength, as well as Trip or Improved Bull Rush option, and possibly Muscle (for extra Strength) can make such encounters real pushovers (literally). Lots of smaller creatures with high AC can mean that a large Trampling and Whirlwinding construct is in order. A spellcaster can be put out of commission by Improved Grab and Poisoning Touch. One bruiser with lots of HP and a low AC means Extra Attack and Energy Touch. Incorporeal foes are best taken out with concussion blast.

My suggestion is to write up a list of certain types of enemies (as in, High AC/High Strength/High HP; Low Fort Save/Low HP; and so on) and come up with a few strategies and options for menu abilities that synergize well with each other and the constructs' regular abilities, then use the list to build yourself some constructs to whip out when needed. It'll save you some hassle when it comes to figuring out what you need and when. You can make substitutions if the situation calls for it, but it'll help save some paperwork and decision-making in-game.
GrandmasterSea
04-25-08, 02:00 PM thanks. you have actually been a lot of help. it sounds like shaper might be a good fit!
Lycanthromancer
04-25-08, 02:06 PM I have to float the idea by the DM, but i dont see him denying the PrC especially since it's in a 3.5 book and not a drag mag PrC. so then what are you thinking of disipline? shaper thrallherd? kineticist thrallherd?It really does depend on what you want to do with your thralls, and what your aligment might be.

I had one egoist/thrallherd that used Improved Psicrystal to boost his psicrystal up to really high levels, then used the Channel Power ability to buff it while he hid in his nomad minion's Heward's Handy Haversack (the nomad could prance around the battlefield, assisting the construct and remaining virtually untouchable, his master hidden safely in his backpack; offense and defense all in one).

A shaper could do something similar with his astral constructs (but with debuffs on enemies, rather than buffs on the constructs).

You could have a nomad/thrallherd that uses his powers to get his minions in position for a group-raid (literal swarms [see the PHB2] of 1st level crusaders can be deadly, even at high levels).

A seer could use his second sight to stage rather devastating attacks by using clairvoyant sense to scout an area, and sending the right minion(s) for the job; does it matter if they fail? They're ultimately expendable.

A kineticist thrallherd could use psionic dominate on creatures affected by mind-affecting effects, and control body on those that aren't. He blasts while his army of thralls meat-shield for him.
protosswarrior
04-25-08, 09:47 PM thanks. you have actually been a lot of help. it sounds like shaper might be a good fit!

That depends on what positions the other players in your party fill. Sure it might be fun to whip to constructs left and right, but if you have no wizard, sorcerer, warmage, or the like to be the heavy artillery, your party may expect you to take that position, even if you are next to useless at it.
Lycanthromancer
04-25-08, 09:52 PM Debuffing is better than direct damage in any case.

I'd rather spend 1 power point on entangling ectoplasm than 7 points on an energy bolt any day.
protosswarrior
04-25-08, 10:12 PM Debuffing is better than direct damage in any case.

I'd rather spend 1 power point on entangling ectoplasm than 7 points on an energy bolt any day.

I guess that as a Kineticist, I am quite a bit biased towards "the blasting your enemies to pieces" tactic.

Still, it would be better if we knew what the other players classes are... (if you already have a cleric or a favored soul, there's little point in specializing in psychometabolism)
Scottbert
05-14-08, 03:38 PM That depends on what positions the other players in your party fill. Sure it might be fun to whip to constructs left and right, but if you have no wizard, sorcerer, warmage, or the like to be the heavy artillery, your party may expect you to take that position, even if you are next to useless at it.

So? You're a psion. Grab a couple blasting powers so you can blast when you need to. It's not like they become obsolete at later levels and you need to get more.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GrandmasterSea 04-25-08, 12:38 PM	So i am entering a game with a lvl 10 ECL. I have decided that I want a psionic PC but havent really decided where to go with it. I think I have it narrowed down to either the telepathy or the shaper. Any opinions or idea help in fleshing it out? I am looking for the most mechanically effective and RP fun.
foxtail 04-25-08, 12:57 PM	The telepath gets a skill set that's quite useful in social situations, and access to the telepathy discipline list gives you charm, dominate and a lot of other fun stuff. Mindlink is a rediculously useful power. On the other hand, nearly all of those powers become completely useless when you're up against constructs, undead, or other creatures immune to mind-affecting things. I've never played a shaper, so someone else will have to speak up for that side.
GrandmasterSea 04-25-08, 01:08 PM	the telepathy looked the most fun to play. especially out of combat. I chose the shaper cause I had a character idea of this recluse that only has relationships with his "children" or astral contructs. astral constructs are pretty intensive and max out at CR 10, even if I reach lvl 20. thanks for the advice on the telepathy. What do you think of thrallherd as a PRC for a mainly good campaign?
Lycanthromancer 04-25-08, 01:09 PM	Shapers are almost as Cha-centric as a telepath, what with access to Bluff, Disguise, and Use Psionic Device, and can act as an infiltrator in a pinch (see changeling shaper for yet more infiltration fun). Plus, shapers are the ultimate utility-box: psionic minor creation and astral construct alone can handle so many situations by themselves that it's not even funny. Shapers are best for people who like to think outside the box, since good knowledge of the rules and a generous helping of cleverness can turn a good subclass into an excellent one. They're also great for conserving power points, especially if you choose your feats correctly (doubly so with the 3.5 constructor prestige class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) and the Boost Construct feat). Both excel in games where infiltration and stealth are high-priority. The telepath uses his mind-control powers and social skills to reach his mission goals, whereas the shaper can, to an extent, do the same. However, telepaths are sitting ducks against anything resistant or immune to mind-affecting effects, whereas the shaper's constructs are capable of matching any kind of opponent (especially useful against corporeal undead). If you know you're going to be in a political game, or your group RPs a lot with NPCs (generally humanoid), telepaths are great. If it's a dungeoncrawl, shapers are your best friends. Anything else is pretty much a tie. [edit] Astral constructs are more powerful than they might seem at first glance, max CR of 10 or no. After all, you can tailor your constructs to whatever encounter you have at any given time, raising their effective CR by 6 or more. Don't judge the CR by the in-book description; judge it by how you can tailor it to your encounters. Also, thrallherd is excellent, but the best way to go isn't telepath, oddly enough, since it gives you two of the telepath's best powers (psionic charm and psionic dominate) for free. This particular PrC works best if you have your DM's permission to use, since it's essentially a boosted Leadership feat. If the DM okays it and lets you build your followers and cohorts, it's an excellent class (even if all you manage to get is a bunch of 1st level followers). Lots of fun.
GrandmasterSea 04-25-08, 01:36 PM	the shaper sounds really interesting the way you are describing it, however, i am not the most familar with the rules. I know enough to get around, but i usually am consulting some kind of 3.5 book every session. I dont know much about the game, just entering it late, so i dont know what it is like, but i am guessing prety combat intensive. Mechanically speaking, how would i go about getting the best constructs possible? Feats? Menu Options? Types? I am little green when it comes to psionic constructs.
GrandmasterSea 04-25-08, 01:43 PM	I have to float the idea by the DM, but i dont see him denying the PrC especially since it's in a 3.5 book and not a drag mag PrC. so then what are you thinking of disipline? shaper thrallherd? kineticist thrallherd?
Lycanthromancer 04-25-08, 01:56 PM	The_Ditto made a spreadsheet for astral constructs which you can download here. (http://dot.ditto.googlepages.com/excel) You can use it to dynamically create constructs on the fly, so long as you have a computer nearby. You might be able to use it on a PDA, as well, though I'm not sure how well that would work. As for the best constructs possible, the constructor class does it admirably. Other than that, the Overchannel feat (to raise your manifester level such that you get better duration, higher dispel checks against them, and to spend more power points to get higher level constructs), and Boost Construct for more menu options (remember that you can trade a high level menu item for two lower ones, and you can trade those for two even-lower menu items), and Extend Power to increase your constructs' duration (at the expense of a higher level construct and your psionic focus) are the only feats in the XPH that really boost constructs. There are options outside of the XPH, but most of them tend to get cheesy (such as Link Power, from Complete Psionic). You can also get powers to do interesting stunts on your constructs, such as fate link (kill your 1 HD construct, and the fate link'd foe gets a negative level), dimension swap (bounce around the battlefield like a rubber ball), and energy wall (for bull-rushing constructs to cause energy damage each round). Also, if you have some meatshields in the party, try tossing out a 1st level construct to both flank and Aid Another. +4 to hit for one ally is really nice for a mere 1 power point. If a +4 isn't needed, a bit of extra damage + flanking is still quite nice (assuming your 1 HD construct can hit, that is). As for building your constructs, take plenty of Knowledge skills and roll each battle to have the DM give you some information on your foes' strengths and weaknesses. If a creature has a low Strength score, for instance, tossing out a massive construct with a freakishly high Strength, as well as Trip or Improved Bull Rush option, and possibly Muscle (for extra Strength) can make such encounters real pushovers (literally). Lots of smaller creatures with high AC can mean that a large Trampling and Whirlwinding construct is in order. A spellcaster can be put out of commission by Improved Grab and Poisoning Touch. One bruiser with lots of HP and a low AC means Extra Attack and Energy Touch. Incorporeal foes are best taken out with concussion blast. My suggestion is to write up a list of certain types of enemies (as in, High AC/High Strength/High HP; Low Fort Save/Low HP; and so on) and come up with a few strategies and options for menu abilities that synergize well with each other and the constructs' regular abilities, then use the list to build yourself some constructs to whip out when needed. It'll save you some hassle when it comes to figuring out what you need and when. You can make substitutions if the situation calls for it, but it'll help save some paperwork and decision-making in-game.
GrandmasterSea 04-25-08, 02:00 PM	thanks. you have actually been a lot of help. it sounds like shaper might be a good fit!
Lycanthromancer 04-25-08, 02:06 PM	I have to float the idea by the DM, but i dont see him denying the PrC especially since it's in a 3.5 book and not a drag mag PrC. so then what are you thinking of disipline? shaper thrallherd? kineticist thrallherd?It really does depend on what you want to do with your thralls, and what your aligment might be. I had one egoist/thrallherd that used Improved Psicrystal to boost his psicrystal up to really high levels, then used the Channel Power ability to buff it while he hid in his nomad minion's Heward's Handy Haversack (the nomad could prance around the battlefield, assisting the construct and remaining virtually untouchable, his master hidden safely in his backpack; offense and defense all in one). A shaper could do something similar with his astral constructs (but with debuffs on enemies, rather than buffs on the constructs). You could have a nomad/thrallherd that uses his powers to get his minions in position for a group-raid (literal swarms [see the PHB2] of 1st level crusaders can be deadly, even at high levels). A seer could use his second sight to stage rather devastating attacks by using clairvoyant sense to scout an area, and sending the right minion(s) for the job; does it matter if they fail? They're ultimately expendable. A kineticist thrallherd could use psionic dominate on creatures affected by mind-affecting effects, and control body on those that aren't. He blasts while his army of thralls meat-shield for him.
protosswarrior 04-25-08, 09:47 PM	thanks. you have actually been a lot of help. it sounds like shaper might be a good fit! That depends on what positions the other players in your party fill. Sure it might be fun to whip to constructs left and right, but if you have no wizard, sorcerer, warmage, or the like to be the heavy artillery, your party may expect you to take that position, even if you are next to useless at it.
Lycanthromancer 04-25-08, 09:52 PM	Debuffing is better than direct damage in any case. I'd rather spend 1 power point on entangling ectoplasm than 7 points on an energy bolt any day.
protosswarrior 04-25-08, 10:12 PM	Debuffing is better than direct damage in any case. I'd rather spend 1 power point on entangling ectoplasm than 7 points on an energy bolt any day. I guess that as a Kineticist, I am quite a bit biased towards "the blasting your enemies to pieces" tactic. Still, it would be better if we knew what the other players classes are... (if you already have a cleric or a favored soul, there's little point in specializing in psychometabolism)
Scottbert 05-14-08, 03:38 PM	That depends on what positions the other players in your party fill. Sure it might be fun to whip to constructs left and right, but if you have no wizard, sorcerer, warmage, or the like to be the heavy artillery, your party may expect you to take that position, even if you are next to useless at it. So? You're a psion. Grab a couple blasting powers so you can blast when you need to. It's not like they become obsolete at later levels and you need to get more.