Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rageheart 02-26-07, 09:29 AM	... My DM got a little irratated with me. :) I am playing a 4th Lvl Nomad. He had a Lvl 4 Mage and a Lvl 4 Cleric with 2 lvl 1 fighters against us. I took a Magic Missle to the chest, doing 9 out of my 28 hp. That was enough of that, so I ran up to where they were standing side by side, and hit them with a "Swarm of Crystals" for 4d4, (No save, area effect) ...the mage dropped. The cleric healed him and the mage got back up and went invisible, so I hit them with another "Swarm of Crystals" knowing the mage couldn't have left my effect on that round That dropped both of them. My DM started comparing Swarm of crystals to Burning hands, but with no save... and asking me to check the Errata for it. Swarm of Crystals Metacreativity (Creation) Level: Psion/wilder 2 Display: Material Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: 15 ft. Area: Cone-shaped spread Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 3 Thousands of tiny crystal shards spray forth in an arc from your hand. These razorlike crystals slice everything in their path. Anyone caught in the cone takes 3d4 points of slashing damage. Augment For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by 1d4 points.Burning Hands Evocation [Fire] Level: Fire 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 15 ft. Area: Cone-shaped burst Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Reflex half Spell Resistance: Yes A cone of searing flame shoots from your fingertips. Any creature in the area of the flames takes 1d4 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 5d4). Flammable materials burn if the flames touch them. A character can extinguish burning items as a full-round action. tell me, it is nice but it's not broken, is it?
Sysane 02-26-07, 09:52 AM	You could use the argument that damage reduction effects crystal based powers per Complete Psi. Plus, it was bad tactics on your DMs part in having the wizard and the cleric standing right next to each other.
Witch 02-26-07, 09:52 AM	It's not overpowered for any reason at all, and that damage reduction effect doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Sysane 02-26-07, 10:07 AM	and that damage reduction effect doesn't make any sense whatsoever. To each their own. I personally have no issue with the rule so long as its applied to magic effects as well.
highbulp 02-26-07, 10:08 AM	The difference is that Burning Hands is a 1st level spell, and you effectively used a 2nd-level+ spell slot on it. Compare it to a Heightened Magic Missile (which uses up effectively LESS resources). If you were playing a Wizard at your level, that would do 3d4+3 damage no save, no DR, no NOTHING, (though to only a single character, but it does occur at range while you had to get pretty close to the cleric), which is better average damage. Basically I think your DM got caught with his spellcasters in a bunch, and you nailed them with an AoE. Maybe you rolled well (or they had low HP), so you took out his encounter. Just remember, that you're now down 8pp, which is probably like 1/3 your resources. So if he had, say, another couple fighters pop up, you could be in trouble. Oh, and I think DR makes perfect sense for Swarm of Crystals, since it says it does slashing damage.
zook1shoe666 02-26-07, 10:10 AM	i think its powerful, but not broken. its one of the more powerful psionic powers out there. this coming from the guy that LOVES to use Touch of Juiblex, a 3rd-level instant kill from the BoVD
Rageheart 02-26-07, 10:17 AM	The sad thing is I had a harder time with the 1st Lvl fighters then the 4th Lvl casters. the combat ended with me @ 7 hp (out of 28) and with 10 PP left (out of 29).* ... all in all pretty costly for the 1st combat of the day. *(He's a Kalashtar with an 18 INT... fyi)
Bacris 02-26-07, 10:24 AM	Any AoE that is used to good effect means the enemies don't use any battlefield tactics. And yeah, comparing a 2nd level power to a 1st level spell and complaining that the power is stronger is a bit silly.
johnkretzer 02-26-07, 10:37 AM	My DM started comparing Swarm of crystals to Burning hands, but with no save... and asking me to check the Errata for it. Tell him no there is no errata out on it since they don't really try to balance out 1st level spells to 2nd level spells. That is like saying Melf's Acid Arrow is way too powerful because can't be SR like Magic Missile. Also the reason it doesn't allow a ref. save or SR is because it is like a instant conjuration effect that ignore theses. Tell him atleast it is balanced unlike conjuration because DR applies.
SlanderPanic 02-26-07, 10:41 AM	And yeah, comparing a 2nd level power to a 1st level spell and complaining that the power is stronger is a bit silly. QFT.
Scion of Coldshard 02-26-07, 10:43 AM	4d4 averages out to 10 points of damage with a max of 16. A 4th level mage should have 11.5 hp avg with a con of 10. As that 4th level mage is going to have a d4 hd it is not unreasonable for him to have put at least a 12 into con and as it is an npc toughness is not out of the question either. With just those simple precautions the mage has an average of 18.5 hp which puts him out of falling down to the spell even if you roll maximum. If he thinks that is broken somehow maybe someone should play a 4th level fighter with cleave and great cleave. He could have gone in there and killed them all in one round with relative ease and that isnt even a particularly good character. Now you having 28 hp with a 4th level nomad, that is impressive! 11.5 avg hp before anything else means about 16 points from other sources. Say 8 from con of 14 and that leaves 8 so I guess 4 psionic feats (human, psion 1, 1 hd, 3 hd) with one being psionic body. If his mage had spent resources to get that many it would have taken 3 swarm of crystals at 4 pp each to kill him on average.
Scion of Coldshard 02-26-07, 10:46 AM	Tell him atleast it is balanced unlike conjuration because DR applies. While I can definately see the rational behind making DR apply and I agree actually making it apply would turn a fairly weak power into a nonentity against anything with DR :( DR magic is fairly easy to get in decent quantities, or at least many monsters have it fairly early on.
Rageheart 02-26-07, 12:15 PM	Now you having 28 hp with a 4th level nomad, that is impressive! 11.5 avg hp before anything else means about 16 points from other sources. Say 8 from con of 14 and that leaves 8 so I guess 4 psionic feats (human, psion 1, 1 hd, 3 hd) with one being psionic body. If his mage had spent resources to get that many it would have taken 3 swarm of crystals at 4 pp each to kill him on average. Actually the DM allowed max HP for all 4 levels as the "Party" consists of myself (a Kalashtar Nomad) and a Dwarven Wizard. ... yeah I'm the frontliner! (there is the possibility of a fighter type joining us eventually.) so that's 16 from base Level HP + a +12 from a 16 Con (+3 mod)
johnkretzer 02-26-07, 12:31 PM	While I can definately see the rational behind making DR apply and I agree actually making it apply would turn a fairly weak power into a nonentity against anything with DR :( DR magic is fairly easy to get in decent quantities, or at least many monsters have it fairly early on. Yeah but casters have other ways to deal with it.
kyeudo 02-26-07, 12:53 PM	Your DM is being rediculus. You burnt almost the equivalent of 2 third level spells trying to kill those 2. Ask your DM if he thinks 2 Fireballs might have killed both the cleric and the wizard, and maybe the Fighters too. If you're the front liner, grab Vigor as a power known. Extra Temp Hp is great.
Rageheart 02-26-07, 01:03 PM	Your DM is being rediculus. You burnt almost the equivalent of 2 third level spells trying to kill those 2. Ask your DM if he thinks 2 Fireballs might have killed both the cleric and the wizard, and maybe the Fighters too. If you're the front liner, grab Vigor as a power known. Extra Temp Hp is great. got it! (saved my bacon, it did!) I also got the "Psicrystal Weapon" (a Deep Crystal Short Spear) and "Psionic Weapon" feats... So, in melee I can do 5d6+Str if I burn focus AND 2 PP. I'm a competent midliner to say the least.
Scion of Coldshard 02-26-07, 01:52 PM	Yeah but casters have other ways to deal with it. Casters have other ways of dealing with crystal shard doing nothing against creatures with damage reduction? I am guessing that you mean something else. Actually the DM allowed max HP for all 4 levels as the "Party" consists of myself (a Kalashtar Nomad) and a Dwarven Wizard. ... yeah I'm the frontliner! (there is the possibility of a fighter type joining us eventually.) so that's 16 from base Level HP + a +12 from a 16 Con (+3 mod) The party gets max hp for each hd and the enemies get near minimum? You are a giant among men! Stomp down on their puny lives ;)
Sysane 02-26-07, 02:23 PM	Casters have other ways of dealing with crystal shard doing nothing against creatures with damage reduction? I am guessing that you mean something else. I woulnd't say that crystal shard is doing nothing vs creature with DR. Crystal Shard is more often-than-not going to get past any given creature's DR if augmented to do enough damage. One of the contributing factors that magic isn't noticeably as effected by DR is do to that fact that there are very little number spells that have a defined damage type of piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning.
Scion of Coldshard 02-26-07, 02:29 PM	I woulnd't say that crystal shard is doing nothing vs creature with DR. Crystal Shard is more often-than-not going to get past any given creature's DR if augmented to do enough. Every 5 points of damage reduction basically removed 2 dice of damage from crystal shard. That is a pretty massive hit! I do not think it is a very good power to begin with though. Reducing its effectiveness even more just makes it hurt that much more.
The_Ditto 02-26-07, 02:33 PM	The only way to compare Burning Hands and Swarm of Crystals is going to get them on the same playing field. ie compare apples to apples .. Burning Hands is a level 1 spell. Swarm of Crystals is a level 2 spell. Let's bump Burning Hands up to a level 2 spell. Let's use the Metamagic feat: "Fiery Spell" (Sandstorm). That adds +1 dmg / die to the damage. So now that we're comparing (more closely) relatively resources ... Fiery Burning Hands cast by a 3rd level caster: 3d4+3 (6-15, avg: 10.5) Swarm of Crystals manifested by a 3rd level manifester: 3d4 (3-12, avg: 7.5) Fiery Burning Hands cast by a 5th level caster: 5d4+5 (10-25, avg: 17.5) Swarm of Crystals manifested by a 3rd level manifester: 3d4 (we're still using the equivilent of a 2nd level slot ... we'll compare higher levels later). Ok ... now let's bump them both up to 3rd level slots ... Empower is a pretty common +2 level adjustment. Empowered Burning Hands cast by a 5th level caster: (5d4+5)*1.5 (15-37, avg: 26) (arguably: (5d4*1.5)+5 (12-35, avg: 23.5) depending on how you rule metamagic overlaps ... ) Swarm of Crystals cast by a 5th level manifester: 5d4 (5-20, avg: 12.5) we could continue up a couple more levels if you wanted: +1 = Fiery Spell +2 = Empower +3 = (Empower + Fiery) or (Maximize) +4 = Maximize + Fiery +5 = Maximize + Empower +6 = Maximize + Empower + Fiery I'm sure Swarm of Crystals will catch up and bypass it eventually ... :rolleyes: 7th level slot = 13th level caster/manifester. swarm of Crystals = 13d4 (13-52, avg: 32.5) Maximized Empowered Fiery Burning Hands = (20+5) + ((5d4+5)*.5) = 25 + (5d4+5)*.5 (30-37, avg: 33.5) *shrug* I don't see a big problem ... using a level 7 slot, we can finally have Swarm of Crystals (kinda) catch up ... until then, Burning Hands is keeping ahead of it for damage .. which I think justifies Swarm of Crystal with no save ... As for comparing it up that high ... it's not a good idea to put much weight on it either way ... You'd be better off comparing it to another *real* 7th level spell ... like Delayed Blast Fireball, Finger of Death, etc ... and I really don't think 13d4 compares to "Save or die" ... ;) Yes it's a good power .. no it's not "broken" or overpowered ... Cheers! :tiphat:
Sysane 02-26-07, 02:45 PM	Every 5 points of damage reduction basically removed 2 dice of damage from crystal shard. That is a pretty massive hit! I do not think it is a very good power to begin with though. Reducing its effectiveness even more just makes it hurt that much more. For a power that's no save and ignores SR/PR? I have to disagree. Its more-or-less the equivalent of an energy based power or spell being used against a creature that has the appropriate energy resistance which, in most cases, still can't ignore SR/PR.
Scion of Coldshard 02-26-07, 02:58 PM	For a power that's no save and ignores SR/PR? I have to disagree. Its more-or-less the equivalent of an energy based power or spell being used against a creature that has the appropriate energy resistance which, in most cases, still can't ignore SR/PR. You may disagree, I do not mind :cool: Energy powers have shifting energy types in general so you can get around resistances or home in on weaknesses. They also do base d6 damage vs base d4 damage so 5 points of energy resistance hurts the energy power less than 5 points of damage reduction. Plus, essentially 'any' type of damage reduction stops this power vs needing to have a specific energy type to stop the energy power. This power is even worse if you are trying to hurt objects with it. I would much rather have an energy power than this power. A psionic version of burning hands that could change energy types? It wins over this power ;)
johnkretzer 02-26-07, 03:06 PM	Casters have other ways of dealing with crystal shard doing nothing against creatures with damage reduction? I am guessing that you mean something else. What I mean is casters(or just psionist though I have the DR ruleeffect casters too) have more options of dealing with creaturtes with DR. That this isn't that big of a nerf.
Shadowmind64 02-26-07, 03:15 PM	I concur, just because the damage is physical instead of energy and allows no save by no means makes it broken. 5d6 is about 17-18 avg damage 8-9 on a save 5d4 is about 12.5 avg damage now if you are a caster and have any idea what you are doing, mobs should not be saving more than lets say... 50% of the time. (and that is being generous, just ask the people on char. op.) so averaging that in.... (17+18+8+9)/4 = 13 damage average.... still higher than avg for the 5d4. Im not seeing a balance issue here.....
Hand of Vecna 02-26-07, 03:33 PM	We give it a Reflex save for half damage, just like any other cone-shaped area effect thing. Seems to work just fine that way.
Scion of Coldshard 02-26-07, 03:34 PM	What I mean is casters(or just psionist though I have the DR ruleeffect casters too) have more options of dealing with creaturtes with DR. That this isn't that big of a nerf. I was making more of a point that manifesters are not casters ;) Still though, sure, they might have more options but psions do not get that many powers known. Wilders get even less. I agree that the power should be effected by DR as written, I just do not like the results after it is applied. If they gave it something as simple as a 50% chance to bypass DR I would be happier than the current change. I still would not care for the base power though. Hmm.. playing with it a little.. maybe if a creature that reduced the damage through DR suffered some sort of penalty as the shards are stuck somewhere in its body (I know it would make more sense for creatures with natural armor, natural armor and damage reduction are so similar much of the time it is tough to make something effect one while not the other). Maybe a -1 penalty to attack, damage, and skill checks for a number of rounds equal to the damage reduced by their damage reduction. That would make me happy with the power really. Limited but with an interesting addition that adds flavor and an extra tactical use occasionally.
Sysane 02-26-07, 04:05 PM	Energy powers have shifting energy types in general so you can get around resistances or home in on weaknesses. They also do base d6 damage vs base d4 damage so 5 points of energy resistance hurts the energy power less than 5 points of damage reduction. Shifting energy types. True for powers but not so for spells unless you take a feat. Crystal based powers biggest strength is that it goes right thru SR/PR. If a character is worried about DR they can always fall back onto an energy power. Plus, essentially 'any' type of damage reduction stops this power vs needing to have a specific energy type to stop the energy power. Can't really argue this point other than my original statement of upping the damage dealt by the crystal power to by pass the DR. A character can't expect single power to be useful in every situation. This power is meant to be used against creature that have no DR and/or have no PR. I wouldn't be suprised if there was some obsure feat out there that would allow the manifester to add a damage descriptor to powers (i.e. good, evil, law, silver, etc...). This power is even worse if you are trying to hurt objects with it. Again, the crystal powers' strength is ignoring PR, not to damage objects. I would much rather have an energy power than this power. A psionic version of burning hands that could change energy types? It wins over this power. In some cases yes. However, there are cases where a crystal based power wins over an energy power.
Scion of Coldshard 02-26-07, 04:11 PM	Shifting energy types. True for powers but not so for spells unless you take a feat. Given the board that we are on and I was talking about powers.. well.. it would make sense that my talking about whether or not it is worth it as a power relative to other powers would take powers into account ;) Crystal based powers biggest strength is that it goes right thru SR/PR. If a character is worried about DR they can always fall back onto an energy power. Using lots of power choices again. If you had to choose one or the other the energy power generally wins. If I am that worried about SR/PR and want to use damage a combination of electricity and overchannel works better in my opinion. I take a bit of damage probably, but I do a whole lot more damage and am very likely to penetrate the SR/PR and I still have a better power the rest of the time as well. In some cases yes. But there are cases where a crystal based power wins over an energy power. Toughness wins over improved toughness sometimes too. It is cool if you like the power, I find it lacking in too many ways. They could at least add in some extra options to make it more interesting and tactical to make up for its drawbacks.
carnivore 02-26-07, 04:34 PM	Any AoE that is used to good effect means the enemies don't use any battlefield tactics. And yeah, comparing a 2nd level power to a 1st level spell and complaining that the power is stronger is a bit silly. to me...this said it all.........if anyone..Players or Npcs bunch together...they deserve to have an Area Spell or Power...or even Some Alchemist Fire or other Splash Weapon hurled at them.(i would have Hurled a Flask of Alchemist Fire bound to a Flask of Acid, with a Thunderstone glued to it) a Wizard Could have Done it easier as his Spells Scale with his Caster level....so he would only spend 2 @1st level Spell slots your DM is feeling bad because HE played the NPCs Poorly and the encounter did not go the way he planed.......he should have prepared better...including planning on some things to happen in ways he doesnt expect.......He should have Awarded you extra XP for a Bold move :D