Help w/ Autohypnosis and Rage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help w/ Autohypnosis and Rage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Wraith428
07-24-07, 01:14 PM So I have a character with a Barbarian Rage ability (actually Berserker Strength from PHB II but if you think of it as Rage its more or less the same thing) and Autohypnosis.

The queation we came up with in our last session is if the character is raging and brought down to 0 hit points can he use Autohypnosis's Willpower ability to take a standard action. It seems that Autohypnosis would require concentration.

We also think that if brought down to negatives, he could use Resist Dying because essentially while unconscious the rage ends.

Any help appreciated.

Rob
Fireclave
07-24-07, 01:34 PM I don't think the RAW cover this, but I would say yes.

When using Willpower and Resist Death with autohypnosis, you're not concentrating on not dieing. With Willpower, you are psyching yourself into ignoring the pain and simply walking it off, which barbarians tend to do anyway with their increase in con when raging. With Resist Death, the action is subconscious, and therefore requires no concentration on the character's part to use. If it did, it wouldn't be able to work at all since you can't concentrate when you're unconscious (let alone dieing and transversing into the negatives).
Thomar_of_Uointer
07-24-07, 01:35 PM Autohypnosis requires concentration, and is not on the list of skills exempt from it. Because ending your rage reduces your Constitution score, doing so to use Autohypnosis will probably kill you.

As a DM, I'd allow some sort of psionic feat to use Autohypnosis while raging (and possibly other things that require concentration). I also have worked on a psionic barbarian variant (sparked by a prior thread on this board), but it and the other material associated with it are nowhere near complete yet.
CrimsonDeath
07-24-07, 06:04 PM And your Rage does not end while you're unconscious. As Thomar pointed out, that would kill just about any unconscious Barbarian with more than four HD, and quite a few lower-level ones.
Mælstrøm
08-02-07, 11:13 AM I am with Thomar on this one, Autohypnosis means hypnotizing yourself - "auto" does not stand for "automatically" in this case. Since hypnotizing needs concentration, and rage/berserker strength require to "let go" of conscious thought and fall into some kind of frenzy or, well, rage, I would rule they are mutually exclusive. That means you would have to end the rage before you could use autohypnosis, leading to the aforementioned problems.
I think a custom-made feat (meaning using up a feat slot) would be a good idea to be able to do both, probably, something like "controlled rage" or something the like. That would have the added bonus of being able to choose the enemy with a will save or something.

Anyway, that is just my 2 cp on the subject, hope that helps ;)
Tedronai
08-02-07, 02:31 PM Any options available while unconcious would seem, at least to me, to obviously NOT require concentration. An unconcious person can't be said to be concentrating on anything. If Resist Dying required concentration, you wouldn't be able to use it at all, ever.
A ruling that Willpower, or other uses of Autohypnosis, require concentration, I could understand and accept, however.
CrimsonDeath
08-02-07, 03:23 PM Now that I look at it... Memorize is the only use of Autohypnosis that I don't think should be usable during a rage. Ignoring terror and horrific injuries (as Ignore Caltrop Wound, Resist Dying, Resist Fear, Tolerate Poison, and Willpower) strikes me as something berzerkers should be known for.
Mælstrøm
08-03-07, 11:16 AM You're right, it would fit, but that should not be accomplished by Autohypnosis, at least not per definition of the skill. Rather a feat that allows a bonus to a will or Fort save, for example, akin to Endurance (was that the right name? I mean the +4 bonus to saves against endurance-based tasks).
CrimsonDeath
08-04-07, 03:02 AM And why shouldn't it be accomplished with Autohypnosis, if the character in question has ranks in the skill?
AdventChild
08-04-07, 01:12 PM Willpower

If reduced to 0 hit points (disabled), you can make an Autohypnosis check. If successful, you can take a normal action while at 0 hit points without taking 1 point of damage. You must make a check for each strenuous action you want to take. A failed Autohypnosis check in this circumstance carries no direct penalty—you can choose not to take the strenuous action and thus avoid the hit point loss. If you do so anyway, you drop to -1 hit points, as normal when disabled.

Action

None. Making an Autohypnosis check doesn’t require an action; it is either a free action (when attempted reactively) or part of another action (when attempted actively).

I dont see why he wouldnt be able to use willpower while raging? it does not require any concentration to do so otherwise it would state so.
Tedronai
08-04-07, 01:26 PM Unfortunately, skills generally do NOT specify the requirement for concentration (even the Concentration skill itself makes no actual mention of the uses requiring you to concentrate)
AdventChild
08-04-07, 01:43 PM Unfortunately, skills generally do NOT specify the requirement for concentration (even the Concentration skill itself makes no actual mention of the uses requiring you to concentrate)

Actually it does on its table, and all abilities or spells that require concentration it tells you if you need to concentrate such as the rage ability, it tells you exactly what skills you can use or cant use.

While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats.

Autohypnosis is a wisdom based skill and it does not require patience or concentration its a reactive skill (the willpower part) but others may interpret differently.
MnemonicSV
08-05-07, 03:41 AM RAW Autohypnosis simply cannot be used while raging, as it is a Wisdom based skill.

Edit: Oops, WIS based skills are allowed. Even so, the following rationale still holds...

That being said, a strong argument could be put forth that the reactive (free action) uses of the Autohypnosis skill do not require conscious effort at all, and that they are based entirely upon the subconscious mind.

The best way to rationalize this argument, is to assume the actual process of self-hypnosis is something that the character practices out-of-combat in his spare time, a matter of level-training that occurs in the background. This is the time when he must concentrate or meditate to properly train his subconscious mind to react when needed.
However, in the heat of battle when life hangs on a thread, that's when the character makes the actual checks to determine how successful that previous self-training was. The actual use of this skill is then triggered by his subconscious when he needs it. (That is, it may only be used reactively during a rage.)

Sort of like Disguise, Forgery, or Use Rope. You can use the skill freely whenever you want... only when your skill is tested do you need to make the check.

This all of course hangs on the principle that a barbarian's subconscious mind remains unaffected by a rage. This too could be supported by the fact that he can show at least some restraint and primal reasoning even while raging (he can usually distinguish friend from foe {frenzy notwithstanding}, he remembers how to swing an axe with accuracy, he need not perform obviously suicidal actions, etc...).

Just a theory. :)
primemover003
08-05-07, 08:20 AM RAW Autohypnosis simply cannot be used while raging, as it is a Wisdom based skill.
Uh... You can absolutely use Wisdom based skills while raging, read the quote in the post abve yours.
Tedronai
08-05-07, 02:48 PM Actually it does on its table, and all abilities or spells that require concentration it tells you if you need to concentrate such as the rage ability, it tells you exactly what skills you can use or cant use.

Autohypnosis is a wisdom based skill and it does not require patience or concentration its a reactive skill (the willpower part) but others may interpret differently.

Purely according to the text, the Concentration skill actually requires no concentration whatsoever (an interpretation clearly without common sense, of course), but may be triggered while attempting to concentrate on something else (in this case, the only such instance mentioned clearly is a spell).

This is not to suggest that one could use the concentration skill while raging, simply that skills rarely make mention of the need for concentration in their use. Such things require a touch of common sense unless they're on the list of specifically disallowed actions (Dex- / Int- / Cha-based skills except Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride; the Concentration skill; Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats; or casting spells or activating magic items by command word, a spell trigger, or spell completion)

'Any ability that requires patience or concentration' is quite vague, and easily misinterpreted by those that wish to do so.
MnemonicSV
08-06-07, 01:46 PM Uh... You can absolutely use Wisdom based skills while raging, read the quote in the post abve yours.

Oops, My bad. Shows how much I play barbarians, ha ha.
Mælstrøm
08-12-07, 04:06 AM 'Any ability that requires patience or concentration' is quite vague, and easily misinterpreted by those that wish to do so.I don't necessarily think that it is a misinterpretation, but simply an interpretation. Even if the Concentration skill says it is hardly a concentration in the classic sense, the use of theskill still suggests that you have to "put your mind to" not losing the spell, or some such. To me, this constitutes a level of concentration that a raging character would not be capable of, because a berserker rage/frenzy (to me) is something where you let go of your conscious self and only act on insctinct. Those two things are diametrically opposite each other, at least to me. Of course some might find a way to explain/rationalize it, and I am not the one to say they are wrong - it is open to interpretation, and no matter how confining the rules might be, each GM makes the rules their own anyway ;)

I might understand autohypnosis as it is intended in the game wrongly, but what I have learned about autohypnosis (self-hypnosis) indicates that you need a certain level of calm and openness of mind. While your mind is certainly "open" while you are acting on instinct, it is still not really "calm" in the midst of battle.

Anyway, that is my interpretation ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wraith428 07-24-07, 01:14 PM	So I have a character with a Barbarian Rage ability (actually Berserker Strength from PHB II but if you think of it as Rage its more or less the same thing) and Autohypnosis. The queation we came up with in our last session is if the character is raging and brought down to 0 hit points can he use Autohypnosis's Willpower ability to take a standard action. It seems that Autohypnosis would require concentration. We also think that if brought down to negatives, he could use Resist Dying because essentially while unconscious the rage ends. Any help appreciated. Rob
Fireclave 07-24-07, 01:34 PM	I don't think the RAW cover this, but I would say yes. When using Willpower and Resist Death with autohypnosis, you're not concentrating on not dieing. With Willpower, you are psyching yourself into ignoring the pain and simply walking it off, which barbarians tend to do anyway with their increase in con when raging. With Resist Death, the action is subconscious, and therefore requires no concentration on the character's part to use. If it did, it wouldn't be able to work at all since you can't concentrate when you're unconscious (let alone dieing and transversing into the negatives).
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-24-07, 01:35 PM	Autohypnosis requires concentration, and is not on the list of skills exempt from it. Because ending your rage reduces your Constitution score, doing so to use Autohypnosis will probably kill you. As a DM, I'd allow some sort of psionic feat to use Autohypnosis while raging (and possibly other things that require concentration). I also have worked on a psionic barbarian variant (sparked by a prior thread on this board), but it and the other material associated with it are nowhere near complete yet.
CrimsonDeath 07-24-07, 06:04 PM	And your Rage does not end while you're unconscious. As Thomar pointed out, that would kill just about any unconscious Barbarian with more than four HD, and quite a few lower-level ones.
Mælstrøm 08-02-07, 11:13 AM	I am with Thomar on this one, Autohypnosis means hypnotizing yourself - "auto" does not stand for "automatically" in this case. Since hypnotizing needs concentration, and rage/berserker strength require to "let go" of conscious thought and fall into some kind of frenzy or, well, rage, I would rule they are mutually exclusive. That means you would have to end the rage before you could use autohypnosis, leading to the aforementioned problems. I think a custom-made feat (meaning using up a feat slot) would be a good idea to be able to do both, probably, something like "controlled rage" or something the like. That would have the added bonus of being able to choose the enemy with a will save or something. Anyway, that is just my 2 cp on the subject, hope that helps ;)
Tedronai 08-02-07, 02:31 PM	Any options available while unconcious would seem, at least to me, to obviously NOT require concentration. An unconcious person can't be said to be concentrating on anything. If Resist Dying required concentration, you wouldn't be able to use it at all, ever. A ruling that Willpower, or other uses of Autohypnosis, require concentration, I could understand and accept, however.
CrimsonDeath 08-02-07, 03:23 PM	Now that I look at it... Memorize is the only use of Autohypnosis that I don't think should be usable during a rage. Ignoring terror and horrific injuries (as Ignore Caltrop Wound, Resist Dying, Resist Fear, Tolerate Poison, and Willpower) strikes me as something berzerkers should be known for.
Mælstrøm 08-03-07, 11:16 AM	You're right, it would fit, but that should not be accomplished by Autohypnosis, at least not per definition of the skill. Rather a feat that allows a bonus to a will or Fort save, for example, akin to Endurance (was that the right name? I mean the +4 bonus to saves against endurance-based tasks).
CrimsonDeath 08-04-07, 03:02 AM	And why shouldn't it be accomplished with Autohypnosis, if the character in question has ranks in the skill?
AdventChild 08-04-07, 01:12 PM	Willpower If reduced to 0 hit points (disabled), you can make an Autohypnosis check. If successful, you can take a normal action while at 0 hit points without taking 1 point of damage. You must make a check for each strenuous action you want to take. A failed Autohypnosis check in this circumstance carries no direct penalty—you can choose not to take the strenuous action and thus avoid the hit point loss. If you do so anyway, you drop to -1 hit points, as normal when disabled. Action None. Making an Autohypnosis check doesn’t require an action; it is either a free action (when attempted reactively) or part of another action (when attempted actively). I dont see why he wouldnt be able to use willpower while raging? it does not require any concentration to do so otherwise it would state so.
Tedronai 08-04-07, 01:26 PM	Unfortunately, skills generally do NOT specify the requirement for concentration (even the Concentration skill itself makes no actual mention of the uses requiring you to concentrate)
AdventChild 08-04-07, 01:43 PM	Unfortunately, skills generally do NOT specify the requirement for concentration (even the Concentration skill itself makes no actual mention of the uses requiring you to concentrate) Actually it does on its table, and all abilities or spells that require concentration it tells you if you need to concentrate such as the rage ability, it tells you exactly what skills you can use or cant use. While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. Autohypnosis is a wisdom based skill and it does not require patience or concentration its a reactive skill (the willpower part) but others may interpret differently.
MnemonicSV 08-05-07, 03:41 AM	RAW Autohypnosis simply cannot be used while raging, as it is a Wisdom based skill. Edit: Oops, WIS based skills are allowed. Even so, the following rationale still holds... That being said, a strong argument could be put forth that the reactive (free action) uses of the Autohypnosis skill do not require conscious effort at all, and that they are based entirely upon the subconscious mind. The best way to rationalize this argument, is to assume the actual process of self-hypnosis is something that the character practices out-of-combat in his spare time, a matter of level-training that occurs in the background. This is the time when he must concentrate or meditate to properly train his subconscious mind to react when needed. However, in the heat of battle when life hangs on a thread, that's when the character makes the actual checks to determine how successful that previous self-training was. The actual use of this skill is then triggered by his subconscious when he needs it. (That is, it may only be used reactively during a rage.) Sort of like Disguise, Forgery, or Use Rope. You can use the skill freely whenever you want... only when your skill is tested do you need to make the check. This all of course hangs on the principle that a barbarian's subconscious mind remains unaffected by a rage. This too could be supported by the fact that he can show at least some restraint and primal reasoning even while raging (he can usually distinguish friend from foe {frenzy notwithstanding}, he remembers how to swing an axe with accuracy, he need not perform obviously suicidal actions, etc...). Just a theory. :)
primemover003 08-05-07, 08:20 AM	RAW Autohypnosis simply cannot be used while raging, as it is a Wisdom based skill. Uh... You can absolutely use Wisdom based skills while raging, read the quote in the post abve yours.
Tedronai 08-05-07, 02:48 PM	Actually it does on its table, and all abilities or spells that require concentration it tells you if you need to concentrate such as the rage ability, it tells you exactly what skills you can use or cant use. Autohypnosis is a wisdom based skill and it does not require patience or concentration its a reactive skill (the willpower part) but others may interpret differently. Purely according to the text, the Concentration skill actually requires no concentration whatsoever (an interpretation clearly without common sense, of course), but may be triggered while attempting to concentrate on something else (in this case, the only such instance mentioned clearly is a spell). This is not to suggest that one could use the concentration skill while raging, simply that skills rarely make mention of the need for concentration in their use. Such things require a touch of common sense unless they're on the list of specifically disallowed actions (Dex- / Int- / Cha-based skills except Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride; the Concentration skill; Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats; or casting spells or activating magic items by command word, a spell trigger, or spell completion) 'Any ability that requires patience or concentration' is quite vague, and easily misinterpreted by those that wish to do so.
MnemonicSV 08-06-07, 01:46 PM	Uh... You can absolutely use Wisdom based skills while raging, read the quote in the post abve yours. Oops, My bad. Shows how much I play barbarians, ha ha.
Mælstrøm 08-12-07, 04:06 AM	'Any ability that requires patience or concentration' is quite vague, and easily misinterpreted by those that wish to do so.I don't necessarily think that it is a misinterpretation, but simply an interpretation. Even if the Concentration skill says it is hardly a concentration in the classic sense, the use of theskill still suggests that you have to "put your mind to" not losing the spell, or some such. To me, this constitutes a level of concentration that a raging character would not be capable of, because a berserker rage/frenzy (to me) is something where you let go of your conscious self and only act on insctinct. Those two things are diametrically opposite each other, at least to me. Of course some might find a way to explain/rationalize it, and I am not the one to say they are wrong - it is open to interpretation, and no matter how confining the rules might be, each GM makes the rules their own anyway ;) I might understand autohypnosis as it is intended in the game wrongly, but what I have learned about autohypnosis (self-hypnosis) indicates that you need a certain level of calm and openness of mind. While your mind is certainly "open" while you are acting on instinct, it is still not really "calm" in the midst of battle. Anyway, that is my interpretation ;)