hmmm... Elans and Planetouched [Archive] - Wizards Community

hmmm... Elans and Planetouched [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
seker
12-10-07, 08:37 AM I have an odd question...

As elans are humans that have undergone the ritual, would it be possible for a planetouched human (i.e. gensai, tiefling, or aasimar) to undergo it? After all they are humans. (especially if you go by the lesser planetouched versions from the Players Guide to Faerun, in which they become humanoids with a subtype.)

And what do people think the effects would be?

Would they keep any of the traits of their planetouched heritage?

This would also go for humans with bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana.
Megido
12-10-07, 10:06 AM I dont see why not. After all when you become an Elan you lose all your previous racial traits not to mention restarting at 1st level.
I personally would even allow Half-Elves.
Lycanthromancer
12-10-07, 11:51 AM I'm voting for an azurin. Mmmm...essentia goodness. In an elan!
SlanderPanic
12-10-07, 12:23 PM For flavor purposes, I don't see why a planetouched couldn't become an elan. They wouldn't retain any of their former racial traits, of course, but I don't see anything wrong with keeping cosmetic traits.

Then again, the divine spark of a planetouched's outsider bloodline could prove incompatible with the elan transformation ritual in a suitably disastrous way, turning the would-be elan into... something else, depending on his heritage. In most campaigns, this would work best for NPCs: Say your campaign has a recurring tiefling or half-fiendish villain who, in a desperate grasp for more power, forces a group of elans to transform him. A flash of brimstone kills everyone involved, but leaves no trace of said villain.

Months or years later, he returns to harry your PCs anew... as a cerebrilith.
seker
12-10-07, 03:11 PM Mainly this was just out of curiousity, as I have not really looked at adding any NPC's like this yet... but I was wondering what peoples thoughts on it were like.

And one of the big things I was wondering about was more the idea of would they keep enough of their original nature to retain subtypes (especially for the lesser versions, as having an elan that was treated as aberration and outsider by spells would be a nasty surprise... as they could be targetted by banishment.)... and given this was the major downside of the lesser version (i.e. what dropped them back down to +0 level adjustment) would they retain any of the bonuses of the original or the ability to qualify for feats?

Are there any precidences for for this kind of thing with elans? Any feats or such that allow them to recover any of their old human traits? And or do they still qualify for human only feats?

Though the idea of a failed attempt to create an elan from a tiefling spawning a cerebrilith is a nasty thought for an npc... though note the planar essence in a planetouched is not a divine spark... totally different concept.

Hmmm... and also what about elans taking bloodlines, would they be prevented from doing so by being elans? And if not that would indicate there is enough of the original form in them to retain other characteristics of having been planetouched perhaps.

Humans have the following changes when they become elans:
-2 cha penalty
lose skill bonus
lose bonus feat
switches to abberation
gains naturally psionic
gains resistance, repletion, resilience
favored class switches from any to psion specific favored class

bonuses that an aasimar/tiefling gets:
stat boosts (main cause for the level adjustment as they are uneven, counteracted by planetouched subtype in the lesser version)
changed type or subtype (depending on if normal or lesser version.)
3 low level energy resistances
2 skill bonuses
light/darkness 1/day
darkvision 60 ft

gensai bonuses
stat boosts (more balanced than tiefling/aasimar but still unbalanced in at least 2 cases)
clerical focus (actually more of a penalty)
increasing racial save bonus vs element (in line with the skill point bonus)
a poweful single spell like ability or a less powerful one and an extraordinary ability.
darkvision 60 ft

Hmmm given that, a possible change on a aasimar or tiefling changing would be something like this...
switches to abberation (but retains the planetouched subtype, which is a penalty.)
gains naturally psionic
gains resistance, repletion, resilience
favored class switches to psion
keeps stat boosts of original but also gains a -2 cha (this is really nasty on a tiefling.)
3 low level energy resistances (not sure if should lose or not, or possibly lose 2 of the resistances)
loses skill bonuses
loses light/darkness 1/day
darkvision 60 ft (not sure if should lose or not)

The gensai would be a bit easier though...
switches to abberation (but retains the planetouched subtype, which is a penalty.)
gains naturally psionic
gains resistance, repletion, resilience
favored class switches to psion
keeps stat boosts of original but also gains a -2 cha
darkvision 60 ft (not sure if should lose or not)
retains clerical focus (actually more of a penalty)
loses increasing racial save bonus vs element (or it lessens to a non increasing version)
loses the poweful single spell like ability or the less powerful one and extraordinary ability.
The_Mess
12-10-07, 03:30 PM No, there aren't any feats to let Elan regain lost abilities, at least not in any official material (unless something from Dragon or Dungeon snuck by me) or in Races of the Mind: Elan (which I heartily recommend). You could do something like it without official feats, of course. For example, my frost-giant bloodlined human psion I'm currently playing could get Elaned and then take the Priviledged Energy (Cold) feat from Complete Psionics as a nod to her former heritage.

There would, however, be nothing game imbalancing about playing an Elan with bloodline levels, though. Fluff-wise, call it an "incomplete metamorphosis", perhaps the propspective Elan panicked and tried to escape the chamber too soon, causing a hiccup in the process. In fact, bloodline rules could represent a former race (Tiefling becomes Devil bloodline, plaintouched is elemental bloodline) in this fashion.
SlanderPanic
12-10-07, 03:45 PM having an elan that was treated as aberration and outsider by spells would be a nasty surprise... as they could be targetted by banishment.)...

Outsider and Aberration are types, not subtypes. You can be one or the other, but not both. An elanified planetouched would be an aberration, since the psionic metabolism that makes an elan an elan is also what makes them aberrations. Also, most planetouched are native outsiders, which makes them immune to banishment effects if they're on the Prime Material Plane. (Any creature, regardless of type, can be banished if not on its home plane. When you leave your home plane, you gain the extraplanar subtype, which is what determines whether or not you can be banished.)

And or do they still qualify for human only feats?

Given that they're not human anymore, to the point of not even having the human subtype, I'm going to have to go with "no."

though note the planar essence in a planetouched is not a divine spark... totally different concept.

Wrong-O. A planetouched is descended from an outsider. Aasimars are descended from celestials, tieflings are descended from fiends, and genasi are descended from genies. While the genies aren't strictly divine in origin, fiends and celestials certainly are. Since we're talking genasi anyway, I'm assuming you're playing a Forgotten Realms campaign. That being the case, take a look at Mulhorand. The reason there are so many tieflings and aasimars in Mulhorand is because those planetouched are direct descendants of the Mulhorandi gods, who lived among their worshippers for millenia. Some genasi share this origin, too, being the descendants of gods with elemental profiles. There's no reason aasimar and tieflings -and, yes, even genasi- in other campaign settings cannot also be descendants of the local pantheon.

Hmmm... and also what about elans taking bloodlines, would they be prevented from doing so by being elans?

I'm going to say no, but it feels like a step back to me. Elans, by nature, are moving toward an existence of pure mind. Exploring the nature of the blood flowing through their veins seems counterintuitive.

Then again, I'm playing an elan now with the Bloodline of Fire Regional feat. Sometimes it fits.
seker
12-10-07, 05:06 PM Outsider and Aberration are types, not subtypes. You can be one or the other, but not both. An elanified planetouched would be an aberration, since the psionic metabolism that makes an elan an elan is also what makes them aberrations.

Did you notice I was reffering several times in the post to specifically the rules on lesser planetouched? (As per the Player's Guide to Faerun) Which makes planetouched creatures of the humanoid type with the planetouched subtype... so by that an elan that was formerly a tiefling, would be abberation (planetouched) possibly... note this would make them affected by both spells and effects that target either outsiders or abberations.

Also, most planetouched are native outsiders, which makes them immune to banishment effects if they're on the Prime Material Plane. (Any creature, regardless of type, can be banished if not on its home plane. When you leave your home plane, you gain the extraplanar subtype, which is what determines whether or not you can be banished.)

Actually, banishment is specifically mentioned as affecting planetouched in the rules, which is in conflict with the spell... which would make them an exception. (Note the book that mentions this is after the 3.5 PHB and thus supercedes it.)

Given that they're not human anymore, to the point of not even having the human subtype, I'm going to have to go with "no."

hmmm that is interesting as are not half elves considered humans for many feats, even though they do not have the subtype for human? Interesting concepts for discussion though.

Wrong-O. A planetouched is descended from an outsider. Aasimars are descended from celestials, tieflings are descended from fiends, and genasi are descended from genies. While the genies aren't strictly divine in origin, fiends and celestials certainly are.

Totally incorrect, celestials and fiends are not divine in origin in fact some actually predate the deities. They, as outsiders, are at least partially composed of the essence of a plane... this is different than a divine essence.

Since we're talking genasi anyway, I'm assuming you're playing a Forgotten Realms campaign.

false assumption, I only refferenced the one book due to it being the extended information on rules for the planetouched. (and note gensai are in multiple campaign worlds, not just forgotten realms.)

That being the case, take a look at Mulhorand. The reason there are so many tieflings and aasimars in Mulhorand is because those planetouched are direct descendants of the Mulhorandi gods, who lived among their worshippers for millenia. Some genasi share this origin, too, being the descendants of gods with elemental profiles. There's no reason aasimar and tieflings -and, yes, even genasi- in other campaign settings cannot also be descendants of the local pantheon.

While it is the case in the of the Forgotten Realms that some aasimar and tieflings are descendants of the avatars of various deities... they are actually the smaller percentage of the planetouched, it goes into this in detail in the Races of Faerun book. (in fact it even lists common appearance trait depending on the ancestor in question, listing various outsiders) So you are making a sweeping statement there that is not backed up by the information as presented in the published books. (oh and they were descendants of the avatars, not the gods themselves, there is a difference there as well.)

I'm going to say no, but it feels like a step back to me. Elans, by nature, are moving toward an existence of pure mind. Exploring the nature of the blood flowing through their veins seems counterintuitive.

Then again, I'm playing an elan now with the Bloodline of Fire Regional feat. Sometimes it fits.

actually what you are describing of someone "moving toward an existence of pure mind" is more along the lines of the unbodied or a character becoming a psion uncarnate. Elans while having changed their body to one sustained and modified by psionics, are not required to ever learn more about psionics or continue in an existance that is pure mind... there is nothing stopping a elan from going pure levels in fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric, what have you...

As the only thing humans lose by the transformation are learned abilities (the bonus feat and faster skill progression) and they retain their initial appearance and such, it is debatable about how much of a change actually takes place physically on the elan transformation. It appears more of a psionic supercharging of the original person than a full metamorphosis.

remember the abberation type can represent bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, and/or an alien mindset... or any combination of the 3... and while they definately exhibit the latter 2, they do not seem to have the first... and the only stat change is a loss of charisma, which is explained as them coming off as a little unusual.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
seker 12-10-07, 08:37 AM	I have an odd question... As elans are humans that have undergone the ritual, would it be possible for a planetouched human (i.e. gensai, tiefling, or aasimar) to undergo it? After all they are humans. (especially if you go by the lesser planetouched versions from the Players Guide to Faerun, in which they become humanoids with a subtype.) And what do people think the effects would be? Would they keep any of the traits of their planetouched heritage? This would also go for humans with bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana.
Megido 12-10-07, 10:06 AM	I dont see why not. After all when you become an Elan you lose all your previous racial traits not to mention restarting at 1st level. I personally would even allow Half-Elves.
Lycanthromancer 12-10-07, 11:51 AM	I'm voting for an azurin. Mmmm...essentia goodness. In an elan!
SlanderPanic 12-10-07, 12:23 PM	For flavor purposes, I don't see why a planetouched couldn't become an elan. They wouldn't retain any of their former racial traits, of course, but I don't see anything wrong with keeping cosmetic traits. Then again, the divine spark of a planetouched's outsider bloodline could prove incompatible with the elan transformation ritual in a suitably disastrous way, turning the would-be elan into... something else, depending on his heritage. In most campaigns, this would work best for NPCs: Say your campaign has a recurring tiefling or half-fiendish villain who, in a desperate grasp for more power, forces a group of elans to transform him. A flash of brimstone kills everyone involved, but leaves no trace of said villain. Months or years later, he returns to harry your PCs anew... as a cerebrilith.
seker 12-10-07, 03:11 PM	Mainly this was just out of curiousity, as I have not really looked at adding any NPC's like this yet... but I was wondering what peoples thoughts on it were like. And one of the big things I was wondering about was more the idea of would they keep enough of their original nature to retain subtypes (especially for the lesser versions, as having an elan that was treated as aberration and outsider by spells would be a nasty surprise... as they could be targetted by banishment.)... and given this was the major downside of the lesser version (i.e. what dropped them back down to +0 level adjustment) would they retain any of the bonuses of the original or the ability to qualify for feats? Are there any precidences for for this kind of thing with elans? Any feats or such that allow them to recover any of their old human traits? And or do they still qualify for human only feats? Though the idea of a failed attempt to create an elan from a tiefling spawning a cerebrilith is a nasty thought for an npc... though note the planar essence in a planetouched is not a divine spark... totally different concept. Hmmm... and also what about elans taking bloodlines, would they be prevented from doing so by being elans? And if not that would indicate there is enough of the original form in them to retain other characteristics of having been planetouched perhaps. Humans have the following changes when they become elans: -2 cha penalty lose skill bonus lose bonus feat switches to abberation gains naturally psionic gains resistance, repletion, resilience favored class switches from any to psion specific favored class bonuses that an aasimar/tiefling gets: stat boosts (main cause for the level adjustment as they are uneven, counteracted by planetouched subtype in the lesser version) changed type or subtype (depending on if normal or lesser version.) 3 low level energy resistances 2 skill bonuses light/darkness 1/day darkvision 60 ft gensai bonuses stat boosts (more balanced than tiefling/aasimar but still unbalanced in at least 2 cases) clerical focus (actually more of a penalty) increasing racial save bonus vs element (in line with the skill point bonus) a poweful single spell like ability or a less powerful one and an extraordinary ability. darkvision 60 ft Hmmm given that, a possible change on a aasimar or tiefling changing would be something like this... switches to abberation (but retains the planetouched subtype, which is a penalty.) gains naturally psionic gains resistance, repletion, resilience favored class switches to psion keeps stat boosts of original but also gains a -2 cha (this is really nasty on a tiefling.) 3 low level energy resistances (not sure if should lose or not, or possibly lose 2 of the resistances) loses skill bonuses loses light/darkness 1/day darkvision 60 ft (not sure if should lose or not) The gensai would be a bit easier though... switches to abberation (but retains the planetouched subtype, which is a penalty.) gains naturally psionic gains resistance, repletion, resilience favored class switches to psion keeps stat boosts of original but also gains a -2 cha darkvision 60 ft (not sure if should lose or not) retains clerical focus (actually more of a penalty) loses increasing racial save bonus vs element (or it lessens to a non increasing version) loses the poweful single spell like ability or the less powerful one and extraordinary ability.
The_Mess 12-10-07, 03:30 PM	No, there aren't any feats to let Elan regain lost abilities, at least not in any official material (unless something from Dragon or Dungeon snuck by me) or in Races of the Mind: Elan (which I heartily recommend). You could do something like it without official feats, of course. For example, my frost-giant bloodlined human psion I'm currently playing could get Elaned and then take the Priviledged Energy (Cold) feat from Complete Psionics as a nod to her former heritage. There would, however, be nothing game imbalancing about playing an Elan with bloodline levels, though. Fluff-wise, call it an "incomplete metamorphosis", perhaps the propspective Elan panicked and tried to escape the chamber too soon, causing a hiccup in the process. In fact, bloodline rules could represent a former race (Tiefling becomes Devil bloodline, plaintouched is elemental bloodline) in this fashion.
SlanderPanic 12-10-07, 03:45 PM	having an elan that was treated as aberration and outsider by spells would be a nasty surprise... as they could be targetted by banishment.)... Outsider and Aberration are types, not subtypes. You can be one or the other, but not both. An elanified planetouched would be an aberration, since the psionic metabolism that makes an elan an elan is also what makes them aberrations. Also, most planetouched are native outsiders, which makes them immune to banishment effects if they're on the Prime Material Plane. (Any creature, regardless of type, can be banished if not on its home plane. When you leave your home plane, you gain the extraplanar subtype, which is what determines whether or not you can be banished.) And or do they still qualify for human only feats? Given that they're not human anymore, to the point of not even having the human subtype, I'm going to have to go with "no." though note the planar essence in a planetouched is not a divine spark... totally different concept. Wrong-O. A planetouched is descended from an outsider. Aasimars are descended from celestials, tieflings are descended from fiends, and genasi are descended from genies. While the genies aren't strictly divine in origin, fiends and celestials certainly are. Since we're talking genasi anyway, I'm assuming you're playing a Forgotten Realms campaign. That being the case, take a look at Mulhorand. The reason there are so many tieflings and aasimars in Mulhorand is because those planetouched are direct descendants of the Mulhorandi gods, who lived among their worshippers for millenia. Some genasi share this origin, too, being the descendants of gods with elemental profiles. There's no reason aasimar and tieflings -and, yes, even genasi- in other campaign settings cannot also be descendants of the local pantheon. Hmmm... and also what about elans taking bloodlines, would they be prevented from doing so by being elans? I'm going to say no, but it feels like a step back to me. Elans, by nature, are moving toward an existence of pure mind. Exploring the nature of the blood flowing through their veins seems counterintuitive. Then again, I'm playing an elan now with the Bloodline of Fire Regional feat. Sometimes it fits.
seker 12-10-07, 05:06 PM	Outsider and Aberration are types, not subtypes. You can be one or the other, but not both. An elanified planetouched would be an aberration, since the psionic metabolism that makes an elan an elan is also what makes them aberrations. Did you notice I was reffering several times in the post to specifically the rules on lesser planetouched? (As per the Player's Guide to Faerun) Which makes planetouched creatures of the humanoid type with the planetouched subtype... so by that an elan that was formerly a tiefling, would be abberation (planetouched) possibly... note this would make them affected by both spells and effects that target either outsiders or abberations. Also, most planetouched are native outsiders, which makes them immune to banishment effects if they're on the Prime Material Plane. (Any creature, regardless of type, can be banished if not on its home plane. When you leave your home plane, you gain the extraplanar subtype, which is what determines whether or not you can be banished.) Actually, banishment is specifically mentioned as affecting planetouched in the rules, which is in conflict with the spell... which would make them an exception. (Note the book that mentions this is after the 3.5 PHB and thus supercedes it.) Given that they're not human anymore, to the point of not even having the human subtype, I'm going to have to go with "no." hmmm that is interesting as are not half elves considered humans for many feats, even though they do not have the subtype for human? Interesting concepts for discussion though. Wrong-O. A planetouched is descended from an outsider. Aasimars are descended from celestials, tieflings are descended from fiends, and genasi are descended from genies. While the genies aren't strictly divine in origin, fiends and celestials certainly are. Totally incorrect, celestials and fiends are not divine in origin in fact some actually predate the deities. They, as outsiders, are at least partially composed of the essence of a plane... this is different than a divine essence. Since we're talking genasi anyway, I'm assuming you're playing a Forgotten Realms campaign. false assumption, I only refferenced the one book due to it being the extended information on rules for the planetouched. (and note gensai are in multiple campaign worlds, not just forgotten realms.) That being the case, take a look at Mulhorand. The reason there are so many tieflings and aasimars in Mulhorand is because those planetouched are direct descendants of the Mulhorandi gods, who lived among their worshippers for millenia. Some genasi share this origin, too, being the descendants of gods with elemental profiles. There's no reason aasimar and tieflings -and, yes, even genasi- in other campaign settings cannot also be descendants of the local pantheon. While it is the case in the of the Forgotten Realms that some aasimar and tieflings are descendants of the avatars of various deities... they are actually the smaller percentage of the planetouched, it goes into this in detail in the Races of Faerun book. (in fact it even lists common appearance trait depending on the ancestor in question, listing various outsiders) So you are making a sweeping statement there that is not backed up by the information as presented in the published books. (oh and they were descendants of the avatars, not the gods themselves, there is a difference there as well.) I'm going to say no, but it feels like a step back to me. Elans, by nature, are moving toward an existence of pure mind. Exploring the nature of the blood flowing through their veins seems counterintuitive. Then again, I'm playing an elan now with the Bloodline of Fire Regional feat. Sometimes it fits. actually what you are describing of someone "moving toward an existence of pure mind" is more along the lines of the unbodied or a character becoming a psion uncarnate. Elans while having changed their body to one sustained and modified by psionics, are not required to ever learn more about psionics or continue in an existance that is pure mind... there is nothing stopping a elan from going pure levels in fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric, what have you... As the only thing humans lose by the transformation are learned abilities (the bonus feat and faster skill progression) and they retain their initial appearance and such, it is debatable about how much of a change actually takes place physically on the elan transformation. It appears more of a psionic supercharging of the original person than a full metamorphosis. remember the abberation type can represent bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, and/or an alien mindset... or any combination of the 3... and while they definately exhibit the latter 2, they do not seem to have the first... and the only stat change is a loss of charisma, which is explained as them coming off as a little unusual.