Hold person and mental actions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hold person and mental actions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SombreNote
08-23-07, 08:16 PM In 3.0 you COULD preform mental actions when under the hold person spell.

In 3.5 it says that you can not preform actions period. Does this also include mental actions.

I have a psion that wants to cast levitate while in hold person.
Scion of Coldshard
08-23-07, 08:34 PM While the description is a bit contradictory with itself you cannot manifest powers, it takes an action to do so and you cannot take actions.
SombreNote
08-23-07, 08:40 PM Would it be an unreasonable house rule to say, any spell that does not have any components (such as using feats) can be used? This would go for mental actions as well.

Hold person is a 2nd level spell. A third level character can cast it. It should never have been so powerful.
Scion of Coldshard
08-23-07, 08:44 PM It is a very powerful spell, although I would say color spray is more powerful.

With it being limited in targets, will negates, and a chance to end the effect each round it is going it can be pretty tough to use though.

I tend to not allow things that are essentially 'save or die' in my own games though.
SombreNote
08-23-07, 08:51 PM I house ruled save-or-dies to. They basically just drop you instantly, though there is a lot more to it.

I am DMing a duskblade, who is getting in a fight with a cleric. They are both 5th level. If the duskblade had one round to prepare an attack, she could drop her in one hit. But other wise she has no chance. All the cleric has to do is cast hold person, walk in and coup de grace. The cleric has about a 78% chance of wining. And that is with a failed initiative.
Scion of Coldshard
08-23-07, 09:00 PM 78% chance of winning?

Assuming that the Duskblade loses initiative and the cleric casts hold person we are looking at something like the following:

Duskblade +5 Will vs DC 18 Hold person. 60% chance of failure.
If failed then the cleric takes a move action (this might or might not put the cleric next to the duskblade).

Duskblades action, +5 vs DC 18, 60% chance of failure, but now we are up to a total chance of breaking free of 64%.
If the duskblade is still held and then cleric is next to him (or 5' away) he can do a coup de grace with a pretty good chance of killing the duskblade.

But, if the duskblade makes either save then the cleric is in trouble. Channeling a shocking grasp through a 2-handed weapon at level 5 is going to have a really good chance of doing 7d6+everything else to the cleric, which is going to put a serious damper on his day ;) It might even kill him.

If the duskblade wins initiative then he gets the initial hit in and then up to 2 saves before the cleric can try a coup de grace.
CrimsonDeath
08-23-07, 09:05 PM Seriously? Let's give the Cleric a Wisdom of 18. His Hold Person has a save DC of 16 (10 base + 2 level +4 Wis). Let's give the Duskblade a Wisdom of 8. He has a Will save modifier of +3 (4 base -1 Wis). The Duskblade only needs a 13 to save-- a 75% chance of failure, in a fairly favorable situation for the Cleric. Any number of things-- a higher wisdom, racial save bonuses (from being an Elf or Dwarf, for example), a Cloak of Resistance-- would increase the Duskblade's chance of survival and aren't all that unlikely. Meanwhile, there's not much that would increase the Cleric's chance of success. A racial Wisdom bonus (unlikely without LA), a Wisdom-boosting item (about four times as expensive as an equivalent save-boosting item), a racial bonus on Enchantment save DCs (can't think of anything off the top of my head), Spell Focus, and Heighten Spell are about all I can think of.
sijigs
08-24-07, 12:29 AM 1) Do you have access to the Spell Compendium?
2) Is there prep time?
3) Is the terrain open air?
4) Are they within both melee attacking distance at the start of combat?

If you answer 1-3 'yes' then I would put my money on the Cleric.

But even if such variables aren't available IMO I think the Cleric will win.

Duskblade has to win initiative, hit and do significant damage.

A good player would utilise the Cleric's ability to regroup himself with healing etc if need be...
CrimsonDeath
08-24-07, 04:21 AM A good player would utilise the Cleric's ability to regroup himself with healing etc if need be...
Can a Cleric really heal faster than an equal-level Duskblade can deal damage? Before level 11?
runestar
08-24-07, 04:47 AM While the description is a bit contradictory with itself you cannot manifest powers, it takes an action to do so and you cannot take actions.

I disagree. A mage paralyzed by hold person can still cast spells modified with the still+silent feat and eschew materials. In the same vein, a paralyzed psion would still be able to manifest all his powers, since none of them have any verbal, somatic or material components whatsoever.

The part about not being able to take any actions is simply reiterating the paralyzed condition (which hold person confers).

And from the SRD...

Paralyzed

A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares.
Scion of Coldshard
08-24-07, 10:11 AM I disagree. A mage paralyzed by hold person can still cast spells modified with the still+silent feat and eschew materials.

A character simply paralyzed may take purely mental actions, but hold person is not simple paralysis.

The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)

They could have left out that line and so referenced paralyze as a condition all to itself, or they could have reiterated the paralyze bit and so not had a problem.

Instead they have 3 things:
Paralyzed
May not take any actions
May attempt another saving throw as a full round actions (which assumes the point that you may not take any other actions but that particular one, hence the contradiction)

If they had wanted mental actions to still be able to take place there are a number of wordings they could have used instead, and indeed do use all over. But they did not and so you cannot.
Bacris
08-24-07, 10:27 AM I have to agree with Scion here. The extra line in hold person supercedes the overarcing rule on paralysis allowing purely mental actions. If you were just paralyzed, you could manifest, but hold person's extra "cannot take any actions" eliminates manifesting.
Gestur
08-24-07, 12:53 PM But if you are turned to stone with flesh to stone?
It is lvl 6 spell and Hold person is lvl 3.
So shuld lvl 6 not be able to block every thing lvl 3 spell culd block?
:confused: :confused:
Scion of Coldshard
08-24-07, 12:58 PM But if you are turned to stone with flesh to stone?
It is lvl 6 spell and Hold person is lvl 3.
So shuld lvl 6 not be able to block every thing lvl 3 spell culd block?
:confused: :confused:

Flesh to stone doesnt keep giving saves to break it and it basically turns a creature off.. they are not dead but they are now a mindless chunk of stone which can do nothing.

How is Flesh to Stone not blocking everything the level 3 spell does and more?
sijigs
08-24-07, 07:29 PM Can a Cleric really heal faster than an equal-level Duskblade can deal damage? Before level 11?

Not outright, no. That's why I said "healing etc".

Buy yourself a few rounds, Sanctuary.. Darkness.. spells that grant concealment while the DB is expending precious spell slots.

Or if you have access.. Cast Delay Death on yourself.. then Moonbolt on hit + Bestow Curse = p0wnage.
Scion of Coldshard
08-24-07, 08:51 PM Can a Cleric really heal faster than an equal-level Duskblade can deal damage? Before level 11?
Not outright, no. That's why I said "healing etc".

It is possible, but not really all that easy, and he certainly cannot keep it up for long.

From complete champion having Healing Devotion and Imbued healing.. take the healing domain.. use close wounds from the spell compendium and cure serious wounds..

That allows for a whole lot of healing and temp hp, enough to keep up withe the damage being dealt but not for long and not doing anything else ;)
runestar
08-25-07, 04:21 AM They could have left out that line and so referenced paralyze as a condition all to itself, or they could have reiterated the paralyze bit and so not had a problem.

I noticed that the bolded line is not really indicative of anything. For example, it mentions that you cannot even speak. But a paralyzed creature cannot speak to begin with, reiterating it does not make sense if its purpose was to cover additional limitations not already imposed by the hold person spell.

I am inclined to believe that it is simply slightly ambiguous wording on the part of the designers, and the line is meant to mean "cannot take any (physical) actions".

Not that I can prove it though.:embarrass

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SombreNote 08-23-07, 08:16 PM	In 3.0 you COULD preform mental actions when under the hold person spell. In 3.5 it says that you can not preform actions period. Does this also include mental actions. I have a psion that wants to cast levitate while in hold person.
Scion of Coldshard 08-23-07, 08:34 PM	While the description is a bit contradictory with itself you cannot manifest powers, it takes an action to do so and you cannot take actions.
SombreNote 08-23-07, 08:40 PM	Would it be an unreasonable house rule to say, any spell that does not have any components (such as using feats) can be used? This would go for mental actions as well. Hold person is a 2nd level spell. A third level character can cast it. It should never have been so powerful.
Scion of Coldshard 08-23-07, 08:44 PM	It is a very powerful spell, although I would say color spray is more powerful. With it being limited in targets, will negates, and a chance to end the effect each round it is going it can be pretty tough to use though. I tend to not allow things that are essentially 'save or die' in my own games though.
SombreNote 08-23-07, 08:51 PM	I house ruled save-or-dies to. They basically just drop you instantly, though there is a lot more to it. I am DMing a duskblade, who is getting in a fight with a cleric. They are both 5th level. If the duskblade had one round to prepare an attack, she could drop her in one hit. But other wise she has no chance. All the cleric has to do is cast hold person, walk in and coup de grace. The cleric has about a 78% chance of wining. And that is with a failed initiative.
Scion of Coldshard 08-23-07, 09:00 PM	78% chance of winning? Assuming that the Duskblade loses initiative and the cleric casts hold person we are looking at something like the following: Duskblade +5 Will vs DC 18 Hold person. 60% chance of failure. If failed then the cleric takes a move action (this might or might not put the cleric next to the duskblade). Duskblades action, +5 vs DC 18, 60% chance of failure, but now we are up to a total chance of breaking free of 64%. If the duskblade is still held and then cleric is next to him (or 5' away) he can do a coup de grace with a pretty good chance of killing the duskblade. But, if the duskblade makes either save then the cleric is in trouble. Channeling a shocking grasp through a 2-handed weapon at level 5 is going to have a really good chance of doing 7d6+everything else to the cleric, which is going to put a serious damper on his day ;) It might even kill him. If the duskblade wins initiative then he gets the initial hit in and then up to 2 saves before the cleric can try a coup de grace.
CrimsonDeath 08-23-07, 09:05 PM	Seriously? Let's give the Cleric a Wisdom of 18. His Hold Person has a save DC of 16 (10 base + 2 level +4 Wis). Let's give the Duskblade a Wisdom of 8. He has a Will save modifier of +3 (4 base -1 Wis). The Duskblade only needs a 13 to save-- a 75% chance of failure, in a fairly favorable situation for the Cleric. Any number of things-- a higher wisdom, racial save bonuses (from being an Elf or Dwarf, for example), a Cloak of Resistance-- would increase the Duskblade's chance of survival and aren't all that unlikely. Meanwhile, there's not much that would increase the Cleric's chance of success. A racial Wisdom bonus (unlikely without LA), a Wisdom-boosting item (about four times as expensive as an equivalent save-boosting item), a racial bonus on Enchantment save DCs (can't think of anything off the top of my head), Spell Focus, and Heighten Spell are about all I can think of.
sijigs 08-24-07, 12:29 AM	1) Do you have access to the Spell Compendium? 2) Is there prep time? 3) Is the terrain open air? 4) Are they within both melee attacking distance at the start of combat? If you answer 1-3 'yes' then I would put my money on the Cleric. But even if such variables aren't available IMO I think the Cleric will win. Duskblade has to win initiative, hit and do significant damage. A good player would utilise the Cleric's ability to regroup himself with healing etc if need be...
CrimsonDeath 08-24-07, 04:21 AM	A good player would utilise the Cleric's ability to regroup himself with healing etc if need be... Can a Cleric really heal faster than an equal-level Duskblade can deal damage? Before level 11?
runestar 08-24-07, 04:47 AM	While the description is a bit contradictory with itself you cannot manifest powers, it takes an action to do so and you cannot take actions. I disagree. A mage paralyzed by hold person can still cast spells modified with the still+silent feat and eschew materials. In the same vein, a paralyzed psion would still be able to manifest all his powers, since none of them have any verbal, somatic or material components whatsoever. The part about not being able to take any actions is simply reiterating the paralyzed condition (which hold person confers). And from the SRD... Paralyzed A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares.
Scion of Coldshard 08-24-07, 10:11 AM	I disagree. A mage paralyzed by hold person can still cast spells modified with the still+silent feat and eschew materials. A character simply paralyzed may take purely mental actions, but hold person is not simple paralysis. The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.) They could have left out that line and so referenced paralyze as a condition all to itself, or they could have reiterated the paralyze bit and so not had a problem. Instead they have 3 things: Paralyzed May not take any actions May attempt another saving throw as a full round actions (which assumes the point that you may not take any other actions but that particular one, hence the contradiction) If they had wanted mental actions to still be able to take place there are a number of wordings they could have used instead, and indeed do use all over. But they did not and so you cannot.
Bacris 08-24-07, 10:27 AM	I have to agree with Scion here. The extra line in hold person supercedes the overarcing rule on paralysis allowing purely mental actions. If you were just paralyzed, you could manifest, but hold person's extra "cannot take any actions" eliminates manifesting.
Gestur 08-24-07, 12:53 PM	But if you are turned to stone with flesh to stone? It is lvl 6 spell and Hold person is lvl 3. So shuld lvl 6 not be able to block every thing lvl 3 spell culd block? :confused: :confused:
Scion of Coldshard 08-24-07, 12:58 PM	But if you are turned to stone with flesh to stone? It is lvl 6 spell and Hold person is lvl 3. So shuld lvl 6 not be able to block every thing lvl 3 spell culd block? :confused: :confused: Flesh to stone doesnt keep giving saves to break it and it basically turns a creature off.. they are not dead but they are now a mindless chunk of stone which can do nothing. How is Flesh to Stone not blocking everything the level 3 spell does and more?
sijigs 08-24-07, 07:29 PM	Can a Cleric really heal faster than an equal-level Duskblade can deal damage? Before level 11? Not outright, no. That's why I said "healing etc". Buy yourself a few rounds, Sanctuary.. Darkness.. spells that grant concealment while the DB is expending precious spell slots. Or if you have access.. Cast Delay Death on yourself.. then Moonbolt on hit + Bestow Curse = p0wnage.
Scion of Coldshard 08-24-07, 08:51 PM	Can a Cleric really heal faster than an equal-level Duskblade can deal damage? Before level 11? Not outright, no. That's why I said "healing etc". It is possible, but not really all that easy, and he certainly cannot keep it up for long. From complete champion having Healing Devotion and Imbued healing.. take the healing domain.. use close wounds from the spell compendium and cure serious wounds.. That allows for a whole lot of healing and temp hp, enough to keep up withe the damage being dealt but not for long and not doing anything else ;)
runestar 08-25-07, 04:21 AM	They could have left out that line and so referenced paralyze as a condition all to itself, or they could have reiterated the paralyze bit and so not had a problem. I noticed that the bolded line is not really indicative of anything. For example, it mentions that you cannot even speak. But a paralyzed creature cannot speak to begin with, reiterating it does not make sense if its purpose was to cover additional limitations not already imposed by the hold person spell. I am inclined to believe that it is simply slightly ambiguous wording on the part of the designers, and the line is meant to mean "cannot take any (physical) actions". Not that I can prove it though.:embarrass