Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Soahc 06-12-07, 04:49 PM	I'm not sure if it has been unanimously determined yet. Whether or not which is greater, and by greater I mean has the most potential, and sheer overall strength over the other, so I'd like to ask the experts of the psionics forum. Which is the greatest Psi Gish, is it the ardent10 slayer 10, or the PW 11 Slaver 9, or someother mix of classes. I'd love to know and I'll check in on this later thanks again!
Archangel62 06-12-07, 05:15 PM	I'm not sure if it has been unanimously determined yet. Whether or not which is greater, and by greater I mean has the most potential, and sheer overall strength over the other, so I'd like to ask the experts of the psionics forum. Which is the greatest Psi Gish, is it the ardent10 slayer 10, or the PW 11 Slaver 9, or someother mix of classes. I'd love to know and I'll check in on this later thanks again! Psychic Warrior 20. You might think this is strange but the truth is that the psychic warrior gives a lot of useful abilities, good feats, decent BaB, overall a very potent and capable combination.
Batshido 06-12-07, 05:22 PM	Psychic Warrior 20. You might think this is strange but the truth is that the psychic warrior gives a lot of useful abilities, good feats, decent BaB, overall a very potent and capable combination. I'm inclined to agree. My other choice would be Monk/Ardent/Slayer with Practiced Manifester and Talashatora.
Fafnir 06-12-07, 05:22 PM	Psychic Warrior 20. You might think this is strange but the truth is that the psychic warrior gives a lot of useful abilities, good feats, decent BaB, overall a very potent and capable combination. I would have answered that too, but unfortunately the definition of "Gish" usually includes BAB 16+.
Lycanthromancer 06-12-07, 06:22 PM	My preferred "gish" class is an egoist that buffs his psicrystal once he gets metamorphosis, then buffs the crystal while it kicks arse. It has more pp than a psychic warrior, has better buffs all-round, AND doesn't have to waste actions buffing. It can buff while it fights. It's dispel bait, but then, so is the psywar. [edit] Oh, and Improved Psicrystal is your FRIEND. Gotta love buffing and healing from a distance. [another edit] You do have to worry about your d4 psion buddy, but vigor and a few well-chosen movement powers and feats (like Up the Walls and psionic levitate, or even a shared metamorphosis) should help with that.
Soahc 06-12-07, 06:51 PM	So in agreement the best gish is PW20?
Lycanthromancer 06-12-07, 06:55 PM	For a class designed as a gish, rather than another class filling in? Definitely. It's exceptionally well-made.
Fafnir 06-12-07, 07:08 PM	Pretty much. Any Manifester10/Slayer10 combination, or similar, can get more BAB (specifically, a fourth attack), PPs and powers known, but the PsyWarrior power list is specifically geared towards gishes. Not to mention the bonus feats and the great class ability: Improved Headache Avoidance (Ex): You don't need to plan a convoluted class progression for your PC. Just have fun. :P
Scion of Coldshard 06-12-07, 07:15 PM	Ranger 2/Psion()8/Slayer 10 with a few feats spent on choice psychic warrior powers is pretty tough though. You pass up the psychic warrior in pp about level 5 or so. You also get +16 BAB in the end and your pp is about double the psychic warriors at that point. Ardent has a problem with there just not being enough mantles to choose from. Some of them are very weak while others are decent. If there were a lot more choices that monk/ardent/slayer with the feats mentioned earlier would be absolutely incredible ;)
Batshido 06-12-07, 08:32 PM	Ardent has a problem with there just not being enough mantles to choose from. Some of them are very weak while others are decent. If there were a lot more choices that monk/ardent/slayer with the feats mentioned earlier would be absolutely incredible ;) I've never really had a problem with choosing mantles. Freedom & Conflict gets you the Dimension Hop/Lion's Charge combo, which you can be very useful with Linked Power and Flying Kick. With your 3rd mantle you can pick up any utility powers you'd want, or go for Physical Power or Destruction to pile on the damage. The build is pretty feat starved, requiring Power Attack, Flying Kick, Linked Power and any other charge feats you might want, along with a couple Tap Mantles in later levels or at least Expanded Knowledge. It's a blast to play, though. ;)
Nephallim 06-13-07, 01:10 PM	I'm playing a char that's planned to be Monk 1/PsyWar 19 with Tashalatora, and thus far the build looks nice. Bite of the Wolf + Tail of the Dragon + Form of Doom + Monk Unarmed Flurry = ...something like 9 attacks per round...more if you dual-wield with a monk weapon instead of using unarmed attacks. Now, manifest Psionic Lion's Charge...fun times.
The_Ditto 06-13-07, 01:21 PM	What about Fighter 4 / Warmind 10 / Slayer 6 ?? (assuming psionic race ... or lose 1 more feat on wild talent) BaB + 20 ML = 15 :cheer: Feats: 7 base + 3 bonus fighter (-2 feats for: Track and some feat to get the Knowledge(Psionics) pre-req .. :P ) = 8 feats DR 3/- PP 70 (+ 5 levels from Slayer? gives us what?) Of course, this begs the question ... what's the progression of Warmind beyond 10th level?? :confused:
Batshido 06-13-07, 01:29 PM	Of course, this begs the question ... what's the progression of Warmind beyond 10th level?? :confused: It doesn't have one, at least until Epic. As an aside, how are you planning on qualifying for War Mind with 4 levels of Fighter? Even if you make it work, you're better off skipping the Slayer levels and picking up something that doesn't involve manifesting. A new, level 1, manifesting class at level is going to be a waste. Edit: I didn't see you were planning on getting Knowledge (Psionics) ranks via feat. That works, 6 Slayer levels still don't, though.
The_Ditto 06-13-07, 01:42 PM	6 Slayer levels still don't, though. well, problems with it bumping warmind by the RAW, agreed ... just curious to trigger any discussion around it that might show a way to deal with it ... The idea was to generate a "gish" .. and this does give +20 BaB and a ML of 15 ... not too squemish ... :D
Scion of Coldshard 06-13-07, 01:51 PM	Of course, this begs the question ... what's the progression of Warmind beyond 10th level?? Why oh why does the war mind not have the choice of either using its own base manifesting or boosting the psychic warrior manifesting?? It really should. It really, really should. If it did then you could have Fighter 4/Psychic warrior 2/War mind 10/Slayer 4. Or, even better, Psychic warrior 6/Warmind 10/Slayer 4. With 8/10 progression on War mind that would give the first psychic warrior manifesting at 13th level while the second would have 17th level manifesting.
Batshido 06-13-07, 02:32 PM	Why oh why does the war mind not have the choice of either using its own base manifesting or boosting the psychic warrior manifesting?? It really should. It really, really should. No, it really, really shouldn't. That would completely invalidate Psi-Warrior 20 as a viable build. So far, the design team at Wizards has been smart enough not to unbalance the Psionic prestige classes like they have with Arcane and Divine PrC's. The 8/10 idea would be better, but it would also add a whole extra level of mechanical complexity that would be wholly unecessary. As it stands, the Warmind is a great way for Fighters, Rangers and Paladins that are introduced to Psionics late in life to jump into the manifesting game.
lears_fool 06-13-07, 03:09 PM	So far the best 'gish' I've played is Ardent 5/Uncarnate 10/(ardent or slayer) 5 You don't get the 16+ BAB, but perma-wraithstrike more than makes up the difference, and I've yet to play a character that's more survivable. It's nice when a class with excellent flavor potential also can be very potent.
InkBlot 06-13-07, 03:26 PM	So far, the design team at Wizards has been smart enough not to unbalance the Psionic prestige classes like they have with Arcane and Divine PrC's. You must not have read Complete Psionic. And a "+1 level of existing manifester class" version of the War Mind would be okay, just so long as you didn't give it too many "+1 ML" levels. 7/10, like the Elocater, might be good, but you could always nerf it down to 5/10. My favorite gish, right now, is psywar/crusader with reach, expansion, using maneuvers/stances like Iron Guards Glare, Crusader's Strike, and Defensive Rebuke to keep all your allies within reach absolutely safe. With claws of the beast, bite of the wolf, and thicken skin you could be a big monstrous umbrella of healing and protection.
lears_fool 06-13-07, 03:34 PM	I think he meant they didn't make a bunch of full manifesting psionic PRCs like they have with arcane and divine. .making Wizard/Sorc 20 afterthoughts and leading to power creep
InkBlot 06-13-07, 04:02 PM	Yeah. Anarchic Initiate is a full-manifesting PrC that's realy easy to get into.
Scion of Coldshard 06-13-07, 04:05 PM	No, it really, really shouldn't. Yes, it really, really should. As it is when you first get it the powers are such short duration that it is practically unusable and throught its entire carear basically its effects will be easy to dispel. Practiced manifester helps fix that somewhat but that means you are another feat down and once you get above level 14 or so the problem returns again. That would completely invalidate Psi-Warrior 20 as a viable build. Why do you think that?
lears_fool 06-13-07, 04:08 PM	Yeah. Anarchic Initiate is a full-manifesting PrC that's realy easy to get into. Yup, that's ONE, and it's not one that everyone picks right off for flavor/mechanic reasons. Compare this to Arcane and Divine. .how many full casting PRCs are there there? Psionics may have weaker PRCs, but at least they're also done right.
CrimsonDeath 06-13-07, 04:15 PM	Yeah. Anarchic Initiate is a full-manifesting PrC that's realy easy to get into. Unless you're a Wilder...
Scion of Coldshard 06-13-07, 04:17 PM	Psionics may have weaker PRCs, but at least they're also done right. Some of them at least.. most classes seem to get prcs that run the range from slightly weak up through stupid broken powerful++ while psionics seems to run the range from so-weak-everyone-around-you-is-worse-because-you-are-there up to a bit too powerful. Metamind, psion uncarnate, psionic fist, and pyrokineticist are all pretty weak.. going to complete psi there were several classes in there that I felt not going into them was a much better plan than actually taking levels in them.
Batshido 06-13-07, 04:29 PM	Yes, it really, really should. As it is when you first get it the powers are such short duration that it is practically unusable and throught its entire carear basically its effects will be easy to dispel. Practiced manifester helps fix that somewhat but that means you are another feat down and once you get above level 14 or so the problem returns again. That's why you don't pick powers that have durations based on your Manifester Level. You pick powers that are going to benefit you right away like Burst or Catfall. Not stuff that is going to be useless until you're level 10+ Why do you think that? Because taking 10 levels of it would give you +10 BAB, 10 more levels of Manifesting, better hit points and abilities that easily eclipse a few Bonus Feats. This is all beside the fact that it would then be of absolutely no use to characters that didn't have manifesting classes before this. It stops being a prestige class, and becomes a Psychic Warrior Upgrade/Errata. Like has been done with all the full caster progression Wizard or Cleric PrC's. So far, we've avoided that with Psionics, and I'd like to keep it that way.
carnivore 06-13-07, 04:38 PM	i would offer this as the BEST Psi-Gish: Ranger 1/ Monk 1/ Psion 4/ Anarchic Initiate 4/ Slayer 10 :D
Soahc 06-13-07, 05:01 PM	Carnivore could you tell me why it's the best, and please give me a link to your psi war builds again. Thanks
lears_fool 06-13-07, 05:11 PM	Some of them at least.. most classes seem to get prcs that run the range from slightly weak up through stupid broken powerful++ while psionics seems to run the range from so-weak-everyone-around-you-is-worse-because-you-are-there up to a bit too powerful. Metamind, psion uncarnate, psionic fist, and pyrokineticist are all pretty weak.. going to complete psi there were several classes in there that I felt not going into them was a much better plan than actually taking levels in them. Okay, I'll admit I wouldn't mind if the Psi PRCs were a smidge more powerful. However, if I had to choose, I'd prefer across the board that every PRC has enough sacrifice that they're balanced out with the X20 version of the class they're tied to. . rather than being as good as pure casters/mainfesters AND having other perks as well.
Scion of Coldshard 06-13-07, 05:29 PM	That's why you don't pick powers that have durations based on your Manifester Level. I guess picking your 6 powers known to be burst, catfall, body purification, evade burst, dimension door, and mental barrier (there werent any 5th level powers to pick and I already took the only 4th) is an interesting selection. Not really my cup o' tea but hey, I am all for the class giving the choice of which progression you want to do when you go into it. Then everyone can be happy! Because taking 10 levels of it would give you +10 BAB, 10 more levels of Manifesting, better hit points and abilities that easily eclipse a few Bonus Feats. And why would it do that? I certainly didnt say that it would, so why are you telling me about this? This is all beside the fact that it would then be of absolutely no use to characters that didn't have manifesting classes before this. Since that was also covered by my post there isnt a problem at all. Okay, I'll admit I wouldn't mind if the Psi PRCs were a smidge more powerful. However, if I had to choose, I'd prefer across the board that every PRC has enough sacrifice that they're balanced out with the X20 version of the class they're tied to. . rather than being as good as pure casters/mainfesters AND having other perks as well. Sure, I would like everything to be a choice with good options on both sides as well. At the moment it looks like the choices are, in very general terms, a) prcs are more powerful and you should definately go into them and b) prcs are weaker and you should definately not go into them (flavor reasons aside of course). A better balance? I am all for it ;) If I had to choose which of either a or b though I would choose for all prcs to be b though. With the advent of the feats of stacking classes a whole lot more can be done with a few base classes now anyway.
lears_fool 06-13-07, 07:21 PM	At the moment it looks like the choices are, in very general terms, a) prcs are more powerful and you should definately go into them and b) prcs are weaker and you should definately not go into them (flavor reasons aside of course). A better balance? I am all for it ;) If I had to choose which of either a or b though I would choose for all prcs to be b though. With the advent of the feats of stacking classes a whole lot more can be done with a few base classes now anyway. Yeah, I've started homebrewing heavily now that the power creep's hit the point of silly. Mind you I'll still let some things from other books in, but they get a thrice over and often a little mod (sometimes for the better)
Batshido 06-13-07, 07:33 PM	I guess picking your 6 powers known to be burst, catfall, body purification, evade burst, dimension door, and mental barrier (there werent any 5th level powers to pick and I already took the only 4th) is an interesting selection. Not really my cup o' tea but hey, I am all for the class giving the choice of which progression you want to do when you go into it. Then everyone can be happy! Or, you could pick the non-level dependent Psi-Warrior powers early and go after the higher level manifester-level dependent powers later. I also notice that Psionic Lions Charge and Hustle didn't make your list, and those are two powers that I don't think any Warmind will want to go very long without. And why would it do that? I certainly didnt say that it would, so why are you telling me about this? Because as written, allowing it to advance Psychic Warrior manifesting would do exactly that. The class currently gives +10 BAB, 10 manifester levels and class abilities that are worth far more than a few bonus feats. Even going with 8/10 manifesting, as you suggested earlier and I said might work, would be pushing it. Since that was also covered by my post there isnt a problem at all. But there would be. So far, there has never (to my knowledge, anyway) been a class that had an option to either increase caster/manifester level for one specific class or have it's own casting/manifesting abilities. Add on top of that different progressions (full for new manifesters, 8/10 for advancing the old class) and you'd get something so complicated that we'd have questions about it every time someone opened the book. Sure, I would like everything to be a choice with good options on both sides as well. Same here. Which is why this whole interchange is silly. I want nothing more than to see everything in the game be balanced enough that you're never put in a position where you have to choose between the direction you want your character to go, and the direction you should go if you want to remain viable. At the moment it looks like the choices are, in very general terms, a) prcs are more powerful and you should definately go into them and b) prcs are weaker and you should definately not go into them (flavor reasons aside of course). I'm not sure that's an accurate assessment. Of the stuff we have available for Psionics (forget Casters and their overpowered tripe), there's a fair selection of stuff that is definitely sideways, not above or below, from the base classes. I've never heard anyone call the Elocator overpowered, but it does get put in a build now and again. Same with the Thrallherd in the right game. Warmind is a great class if you don't start with any manifester levels. Complete Psionic is a wasteland, but at least we don't have to put up with Incatrix's and Initiates of the Sevenfold Veil. To be honest, the pool of Psionic PrC's is shallow enough that it's really hard to make a solid case one way or the other. A better balance? I am all for it ;) To paraphrase Tempest: "taste the indecision? That's balance." Slapping together a collection of wholesale improvements to a base class and calling it a PrC is not balance. It's not even power creep. It's pandering. Balance is an elusive little creature, that lives only in secluded areas and can't stand direct sunlight or harsh weather. Creating PrC's that give full (X) progression while improving on the abilities of the base class is akin to throwing rocks at balance and expecting it to come lay down at your feet. It's silly and irresponsible.
Rustmonster 06-13-07, 07:43 PM	*Hey! It's time to ask a Dumb Question! (tm)* What is a gish?
Batshido 06-13-07, 07:45 PM	*Hey! It's time to ask a Dumb Question! (tm)* What is a gish? A Melee/Caster Mix. Generally accepted to be any successful build with around 16 BAB and 15 Caster levels.
Scion of Coldshard 06-13-07, 07:45 PM	Or, you could pick the non-level dependent Psi-Warrior powers early and go after the higher level manifester-level dependent powers later. I also notice that Psionic Lions Charge and Hustle didn't make your list, and those are two powers that I don't think any Warmind will want to go very long without. So now you have catfall, burst, psionic lions charge, and hustle. What would you like your only other two powers to be? Because as written, allowing it to advance Psychic Warrior manifesting would do exactly that. No, it wouldnt. This is because as written it does not advance your psychic warrior manifesting at all. Any change to make it so would be, by definition, not already in there before the change. As written it advances the psychic warrior manifestation by 0 levels. 0 is not the same as 10. My example earlier suggested 8, 8 is not the same as 10 either. But there would be. Why would there be an issue with characters taking it who had no previous manifester levels? They just choose to use the normal progression rather than the psychic warrior manifesting advancement. So, no problem. So far, there has never (to my knowledge, anyway) been a class that had an option to either increase caster/manifester level for one specific class or have it's own casting/manifesting abilities. Assuming that this is true (and really, it isnt), why would it matter? Does it matter if a new prc comes out with an ability never seen before? It happens all of the time, roughly every time a new prc is introduced really. I'm not sure that's an accurate assessment. My assessment that in very general terms the selection often looks like what I described? It seems pretty accurate to me. There are a ton of prcs out there which are just plain too good and a ton more which are just plain wastes of ink and paper. There are quite a few which are well balanced, but people normally notice the fringe guys. Of course in this case each fringe is larger than the middle so... Creating PrC's that give full (X) progression while improving on the abilities of the base class is akin to throwing rocks at balance and expecting it to come lay down at your feet. It's silly and irresponsible. Actually, it is taking a cool concept and allowing more classes access to it. In this case, the prc itself is very cool but many classes that would like to take it cannot because of the mechanics of it. My suggestion would not unbalance the choice 'and' it would open the choice up to more classes and builds. Woo! That is like having two seperate prc slots taken up in one slot, more slots for extra prcs and stuff ;)
Batshido 06-13-07, 10:01 PM	Honestly, this is a rather silly discourse, as we seem to be on the same side of the fence on almost everything we've discussed. We just aren't very good at agreeing with each other. ;) So now you have catfall, burst, psionic lions charge, and hustle. What would you like your only other two powers to be? Dimension Slide and Perfect Riposte, if memory serves (I'm afb). I don't think I'd really need any more to make a solid Warmind, though depending on your character concept mileage may vary. No, it wouldnt. This is because as written it does not advance your psychic warrior manifesting at all. Any change to make it so would be, by definition, not already in there before the change. As written it advances the psychic warrior manifestation by 0 levels. 0 is not the same as 10. My example earlier suggested 8, 8 is not the same as 10 either. Here it appears that we've had a breakdown in communication. I understand that you want to make it 8/10, and I acknowledged it as such. My statements were directed at the fact that, as it stands, a simple port of the class would make it overpowered. Assuming that this is true (and really, it isnt), why would it matter? Does it matter if a new prc comes out with an ability never seen before? It happens all of the time, roughly every time a new prc is introduced really. First, I would be very curious if you can come up with an example of a prestige class that presents that option. Second, the problem stems from the fact that in game design simple is good. Simple is elegant, easy to understand and puts the mechanics in the background where you don't have to concentrate on them to enjoy the game. Having multiple versions of a manifesting progression on the same PrC would lead to confusion and questions. Questions that would detract from gameplay and suspension of disbelief. It seems pretty accurate to me. There are a ton of prcs out there which are just plain too good and a ton more which are just plain wastes of ink and paper. There are quite a few which are well balanced, but people normally notice the fringe guys. Of course in this case each fringe is larger than the middle so... The unbalanced PrC's get the most attention because they stand out. If they didn't, nobody would talk about them. How many "Help Fix The Elocator" threads have you seen? Or "Let's Rebuild the Psychic Warrior?" PrC's in general are a mixed bag. Hell, Classes in general are a mixed bag. Psionics has managed, so far, to keep from listing towards one end of the spectrum (if you ignore large sections of Complete Psionics, which I know is a caveat). I like that, and I want it to continue. I wouldn't mind more options, but more power I can do without.
Wizard Random 06-14-07, 12:08 AM	I dont know guys i am fond of Psion (any)8/Sanctified Mind 4/Slayer 8 This nets you 9th level powers which is always nice This nets you with a BAB of 16 and 18th level Manifesting with only 2 levels of loss. A friend of mine came out with a way to get 18 BAB and 18 Manifesting but how he did it escapes me atm. Also whats neat is at the lower levels you have a solid power as a psion which can ensure your survivability. The variant psions can also add a neat touch to whatever build you choose. Of course if you use Wilder then you can in fact gain 18/18 simply because you would be able to add on 2 more levels of Slayer or Sanctified Mind. Options like Mantled Wilder and such can make it have even more of a punch and Wild Surge never hurt anyone (technically speaking) If the low number of powers bother you can always pay to learn more. It would look something like Wilder (any varient) 6/Sanctified Mind 4/ Slayer 8/ Any 2 Once again you have 9th level powers Whats also really neat is the above builds can be used with ANY race and has minimal feat investment, making them solid choices for whatever you would like to do. I remember a PRC from Dragon Magic?? that allowed you to gain claws,breath weapon and a few other abilities and it gave near perfect manifesting with cleric BAB, you also might be able to toss in Anarchic Initiate into the above builds but i am AFB atm so i couldn't tell you if the loss of the point of BAB is worth it. Hope this helps!
Scion of Coldshard 06-14-07, 02:07 AM	Honestly, this is a rather silly discourse, as we seem to be on the same side of the fence on almost everything we've discussed. We just aren't very good at agreeing with each other. ;) Its all in good fun right? ;) Dimension Slide and Perfect Riposte, if memory serves (I'm afb). Perfect riposte has a duration based on level plus if it is taken literaly by what it says then it costs 11pp even as a 5th level power. Complete psionic has some really stupid bits in it ;/ Dimension slide seems really situational, especially as you already have burst. A standard action, later potentially a move, to get about 30' or so from where you currently are? Here it appears that we've had a breakdown in communication. I understand that you want to make it 8/10, and I acknowledged it as such. My statements were directed at the fact that, as it stands, a simple port of the class would make it overpowered. I am not really sure where the simple port comes in. The class is not psychic warrior, even though it uses the same list, so there is no direct port to it stacking with the psychic warrior. They get powers at different rates and pp at different rates. To me, if you change it over to boosting manifesting levels then you simply must specify how many it is going to get, there is not other option because the class does not stack and it gains its abilities differently. First, I would be very curious if you can come up with an example of a prestige class that presents that option. I know that there were some racial levels which allowed a choice of casting or a bonus feat, I remember reading about some actual prcs that did something similar although I do not remember the book offhand, plus I have made some that did it in the past. So, it is true by default ;) Second, the problem stems from the fact that in game design simple is good. Having the two, easy choices is not only simple it elegantly fixes an issue with the system that should be fixed. It really isnt any different than picking a feat in a feat chain, people seem to manage that just fine, or having a class which grants something like caster level but you have to pick only one of the caster classes that you already have. Both of those are essentially the same issue just written in a slightly different way. What is so hard about it anyway? You get into the class, pick either progression 1 or 2. Done. Simple, easy, quick, and in my opinion much better than having to write out two prcs which do basically the same thing but with essentially a single change. Or worse, denying one path into it for fear of giving someone the choice and thereby killing fun character builds that could have been :( The unbalanced PrC's get the most attention because they stand out. If they didn't, nobody would talk about them. How many "Help Fix The Elocator" threads have you seen? Or "Let's Rebuild the Psychic Warrior?" Sure, of course they stand out, that was why I mentioned it ;) And yes, I have seen threads like both of those in this forum and participated in a few. In my games the psychic warrior gets his current pp pool modified by this equation: (X+1)*1.5 (round down). That puts him at just about the perfect level of ability through all levels. Psionics has managed, so far, to keep from listing towards one end of the spectrum (if you ignore large sections of Complete Psionics, which I know is a caveat). I like that, and I want it to continue. I wouldn't mind more options, but more power I can do without. Giving the war mind the choice of progression opens up options without adding more power really, so long as the progression is chosen properly of course. Psionics is already open to a large number of options which are not broken, although it has more than its fair share of abilities which are way too weak, which sucks :( Still, tossing in some extra utility for prc's is right up the psionic classes alley both in that it fits with their theme plus we dont get a lot of support anyway so being able to double up on some classes really helps!
Kanachi 06-14-07, 08:01 AM	I'm no pro at building such things, but if your willing to allow 3rd party stuff 5 levels of ghost breaker might prove rather tempting to any gish build.
Soahc 06-14-07, 10:22 AM	Well this has caused discussion I kinda stopped checking in after I got my answer page one. Thanks anyway
Wizard Random 06-14-07, 05:29 PM	Well this has caused discussion I kinda stopped checking in after I got my answer page one. Thanks anyway PW 20 seems kinda meh, at least keep in mind the stuff i dropped down.