Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 11-21-07, 03:56 PM	I believe there is no question in anyone's mind that Psionics will be nerfed in 4th edition. The only question is how badly will it get nerfed? Although I am trying to keep an open mind about the 4.0 system, my final decision on whether I buy it or not will be based on the Psionic rules when they come out. I am hoping for the best, but considering the witch hunt on Psionics, I am expecting the worse. One of my DMs is confident WotC will keep the point system, but it will use the same spell list as magic users use. He believes this is great, but I believe it would be a tragedy. If we use the same spells as arcane users, then it is not really Psionics. It is just another form of magic user. Any opinions on this?
Illithid00 11-21-07, 04:08 PM	Um, why don't we just wait for 4E to come out first before we start bashing it into the dust? Besides, WotC has done pretty great with psionics so far.
mato_hibiki 11-21-07, 04:15 PM	Provided you ignore complete psionics... ... Which most people seem to do anyways. Forty bucks for three feats and six powers. SIGH.
Illithid00 11-21-07, 04:31 PM	Provided you ignore complete psionics... ... Which most people seem to do anyways. Forty bucks for three feats and six powers. SIGH. I didn't see anything wrong with Complete Psionic. I got the book and I love it.
mato_hibiki 11-21-07, 04:43 PM	:blink:
CrimsonDeath 11-21-07, 04:45 PM	I believe there is no question in anyone's mind that Psionics will be nerfed in 4th edition. I think they're going to do their best to balance it against the core mechanics. I didn't see anything wrong with Complete Psionic. I got the book and I love it. So... How many PP does it take to activate the Illithid Blast feat?
ToastedAmphibian 11-21-07, 04:50 PM	So... How many PP does it take to activate the Illithid Blast feat? Uh, are you threatening to blast another poster? How many power points do you have anyways?
Bacris 11-21-07, 04:52 PM	So... How many PP does it take to activate the Illithid Blast feat? And how does a wilder take Anarchic Initiate 10 pre-epic without having to multiclass or use Forgotten Realms material?!? As for 4E, you really can't use WotC's psionic track record, because we have 3.0 (REALLY BAD), 3.5 (REALLY GOOD), Complete Psionic (mediocre). If you balance it, you get mediocre, but quite a bit of sway to either extreme. I'm hoping it's completely balanced compared to the options in PHB1. If it's not, then I'll just take the XPH ruleset and convert it to 4E and release that. :)
Illithid00 11-21-07, 05:07 PM	So... How many PP does it take to activate the Illithid Blast feat? I didn't say there was nothing wrong with it. But just because there's a couple problems, big deal. Maybe you could do something to try and fix it instead of just sitting there and whining about it. If the book sucks that bad, sell it and get over it. Or send an email about it to WotC and ask for their reasoning for the "problems".
InkBlot 11-21-07, 05:09 PM	I'm optimistic. Psionics is a big part of one of the official campaign settings (Eberron) so hopefully they'll put in a good amount of effort. The best books to come out lately, and the ones that include ideas from 4e, all have decent psionics material; Complete Scoundrel, Tome Of Battle, Tome Of Magic (esp. pact magic), Magic Of Incarnum, and the Magic Item Compendium. One of the 4e playtesters was even playing a psion (if in name only). This all shows that there's at least an awareness of psionics within WotC.
Grod_The_Giant 11-21-07, 05:17 PM	Uh, are you threatening to blast another poster? How many power points do you have anyways? me? 156.3 :P But...I hope it is nerfed as much as normal magic is. And is not core, simply because core should be basic.
Bacris 11-21-07, 05:36 PM	Or send an email about it to WotC and ask for their reasoning for the "problems". Not to gang up on you, but we have. Since Complete Psionic came out. We still don't have answers or errata. Yes, we're a little bitter.
Illithid00 11-21-07, 06:13 PM	me? 156.3 :P And is not core, simply because core should be basic. I disagree, I think psionics should be core. Especially because if it was core, maybe everyone would get their answers since you all seem to dislike Complete Psionics.
T_Baggins 11-21-07, 07:08 PM	Psionics should be in the players handbook, but it would be like 10 lbs. They should put it in the DMG, because 3/4 of that is fluff. I know psionics has a bad reputation, but really, arcane magic is more powerful. Psionics is still trying to live down the early editions, but arcane magic is better. Heck divine magic is more powerful. The Char-Ops boards never talk about psions. They just can't hang with the magic big boys. My friend, (a notorious number cruncher) played a psion, and pointed out that psions have a tiny fraction of the "spells" available to them that a mage does. And meta-magic(psionics) stinks up the house for a psion. You can only use one meta feat per round, and have to devote feats to do it every round. I think psions need a little nudge up the power scale if wizards and the zillas stay where they are.
Kobold_Avenger 11-21-07, 07:17 PM	Thats quite true. Also Psions have to pay for most of there up grades on powers, where as spell casters increase as levels go up. Psionic, at least the mechanics of it, makes a alot more sense the the current spell casting system does.
4-armed kobold 11-21-07, 07:36 PM	Well as long as they, 1. keep the PP system for psionics and not adopt the Vancian spell system 2. keep the psion and psychic warrior untouched (or maybe just increase by 1.5 times the psychic warrior's PP) 3. keep the flavor and mechanics of almost all the powers in the XPH and not redo them as arcane equivalents then I guess I wouldn't say that psionics has been badly nerfed in 4th ed.
InkBlot 11-21-07, 08:15 PM	1. Even Wizards are being moved away from the Vancian spell system, so I doubt we have to worry about it infecting Psions. 2. Every class is getting shaken up. Sorcerers are being replaced with Warlocks. Marshals, Rogue/Fighters, and White Raven Warblades are being replaced with Warlords. Characters aren't changing, but the mechanics are. There will still be classes to fill all the old roles, and a warrior with psychic powers will still be a psychic warrior, but it may be that there's no Psychic Warrior class for him to have levels in. For all we know, psionics might not even be a class-based system. 3. They can't keep the mechanics. It's a new edition. Everything is changing. The flavor in the XPH doesn't originate in the XPH, so lets look past it and go to the source.
calronmoonflower 11-21-07, 08:33 PM	I believe there is no question in anyone's mind that Psionics will be nerfed in 4th edition. The only question is how badly will it get nerfed? Even though psionics is treated like a bastard child by Wizards of the Coast, I truly doubt they will treat it that bad early on. Who knows, in 4th psi-zilla may be used to show that spellcaster are more balanced than people say. Although I am trying to keep an open mind about the 4.0 system, my final decision on whether I buy it or not will be based on the Psionic rules when they come out. I am hoping for the best, but considering the witch hunt on Psionics, I am expecting the worse. Witch hunt? The Complete Psionic had some bad stuff (overall it isn't as bad as people say) and psionics has a general lack of support, but the only witch hunts have been on the boards. One of my DMs is confident WotC will keep the point system, but it will use the same spell list as magic users use. He believes this is great, but I believe it would be a tragedy. If we use the same spells as arcane users, then it is not really Psionics. It is just another form of magic user. I actually given this some though. Psionics (and even magic) may use a hybrid system of abilities per X and power points (or spell points for magic) to augment those abilities. This means that you can have abilities all day and still be able to call on higher power when needed. MMMmmm... How about calling it mana instead of X points. :hides: It's the same idea with a different name. Any opinions on this? Yes, this should have been posted on the 4th edition boards. :P
CrimsonDeath 11-21-07, 10:18 PM	I didn't say there was nothing wrong with it. Ah, you said you didn't see anything wrong with it. I see the distinction now. You weren't looking hard enough earlier.
Illithid00 11-21-07, 10:47 PM	Ah, you said you didn't see anything wrong with it. I see the distinction now. You weren't looking hard enough earlier. I may not have been, but I also haven't played it all yet, and until playtesting (by my group and I) proves that it's broken, I'll try not to make distinctions/judgments on what I haven't used in my game.
CipherTheory 11-21-07, 11:39 PM	I'm actually hopeful for 4E psionics. According to some of the 4E articles on the site, the designers are playtesting psionics right along side the core books right now. Considering that the 4E psionics handbook isn't scheduled for release until (I think) a year after the core three are out, that means there will be even more playtesting goodness for psionics than there is with the core rules. Of course this could all be a lie (Lord knows WotC hasn't always been honest with us), but I'm going to be objective about this. 3.5 psionics was a HUGE change from the utter crap that was 3.0 psionics. Also, for several years we had Mind's Eye articles on the site which were, with a few exceptions, really solid. Really Complete Psionic has been the only really dark spot in psionics since the version switch, and I'm personally attributing it to the fact that it was designed just as 4E was really heating up (meaning it got the "It's 3.5 and nobody here cares anymore" treatment). I'm in agreement with celestialkin regarding when/if I'll buy the new edition. I'm waiting until I see the 4E psionics handbook before I'll even consider adopting the new system, and will base my decision primarily on how well my favorite sub-genre of the hobby is treated. Unlike celestialkin, however, I'm optimistic about 4E. Hopefully, they won't let us down.
InkBlot 11-22-07, 12:24 AM	I'm actually hopeful for 4E psionics. According to some of the 4E articles on the site, the designers are playtesting psionics right along side the core books right now. Could you dig up a link? I'd really like to see that. I'm always itching for any news of 4e. The only official mentions of 4e psionics that I've seen are the one wizard-with-the-serial-numbers-filed-off, and a quote from the podcast that basically just stated "yes, there will be psionics in 4e."
Illithid00 11-22-07, 01:18 AM	Here's a question: Why are we all arguing and becoming agitated over something we know next to nothing about? Why can't we just wait until 4E comes out and THEN discuss the psionics aspect of it? Let's face it, we just don't know what WotC is going to do with psionics yet, so we can't really assume what is going to happen. Ex. whether psionic PCs have to use arcane spell lists, what kind of system psionics is going to use, etc. We just don't know at this point.
Haldrik 11-22-07, 01:51 AM	4e is the end of psionics as we know it.
Salla 11-22-07, 02:51 AM	Here's a question: Why are we all arguing and becoming agitated over something we know next to nothing about? Why can't we just wait until 4E comes out and THEN discuss the psionics aspect of it? Let's face it, we just don't know what WotC is going to do with psionics yet, so we can't really assume what is going to happen. Ex. whether psionic PCs have to use arcane spell lists, what kind of system psionics is going to use, etc. We just don't know at this point. Wait until we have something concrete to discuss, form educated, erudite, and informed opinions on the material instead of engaging in rampant speculation, meaningless doomsaying, and completely inappropriate complaining without any information to base it on? Dude, we're on the internet. You've got a better chance of teaching George W. Bush to properly pronounce the word 'subliminal'.
Salla 11-22-07, 02:51 AM	4e is the end of psionics as we know it. See what I mean? (Multi-Quote wouldn't work.)
Illithid00 11-22-07, 03:07 AM	Wait until we have something concrete to discuss, form educated, erudite, and informed opinions on the material instead of engaging in rampant speculation, meaningless doomsaying, and completely inappropriate complaining without any information to base it on? Dude, we're on the internet. You've got a better chance of teaching George W. Bush to properly pronounce the word 'subliminal'. I've gotta say, even though I think we should wait to discuss it until we actually have some info about it, that quote made me laugh. But, it also made me sad, because it's so unfortunately true...
Nviat 11-22-07, 03:26 AM	All 4e mages will cast spells at will, per encounter, and per day. It seems like there will be no room for power points. Psions will manifest powers at will, per encounter, and per day. Wizards will too. If there are no power points, there will be little difference between Psions and Wizards. If there is little difference between Psions and Wizards, then Psionics will probably become a school of spells that relate to mind altering and telekinesis. Haldrik is probably right: '4e is the end of psionics as we know it'.
CrimsonDeath 11-22-07, 04:31 AM	4e is the end of psionics as we know it. It had better be, since 4e is the end of D&D as we know it.
Slagger the Chuul 11-22-07, 11:07 AM	It had better be, since 4e is the end of D&D as we know it. I'd hope so, because serving up 3.75 Edition with most of the 3.5 flaws intact would be a waste of time.
Neutronium_Dragon 11-22-07, 11:22 AM	> All 4e mages will cast spells at will, per encounter, and per day. It's not just mages. *Everyone* has at will/per encounter/per day powers in 4E.
Haldrik 11-22-07, 12:22 PM	Nviat: Haldrik is probably right: '4e is the end of psionics as we know it'. :tiphat: There will be no power points. Psions will manifest powers at will, per encounter, and per day. Psionics will probably become a school of spells. Exactly.
CipherTheory 11-22-07, 12:53 PM	Could you dig up a link? I'd really like to see that. I'm always itching for any news of 4e. The only official mentions of 4e psionics that I've seen are the one wizard-with-the-serial-numbers-filed-off, and a quote from the podcast that basically just stated "yes, there will be psionics in 4e."In Chris Perkins' Blog (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13837483&postcount=12) (notably the last paragraph of that link) he mentions that they're building the psionics system now (meaning, while 4E is still in playtesting) so that it will play well with the core rules. I can't find the link that specifically mentions that they're playtesting it with the core rules. I could have sworn it was in with some of the initial 4E announcements. It might be in one of the other designer's blogs, but I seem to be having problems accessing old posts on the gleemax staff blog section so I can't really check. Regardless, they're being designed along side the core rules (and I would assume playtested because, you know, that would make sense); and that's enough to inspire confidence in me (for the moment).
Bacris 11-22-07, 01:35 PM	I think the quote you're remembering is that Bruce (I'm pretty sure Bruce) was playing a wizard with the serial numbers filed off and called a "psion" But I could be wrong. :) As for why discuss it? Because it's important to us, so we want to talk about it. The whole "just shut up and don't discuss it until it is launched" seems a bit rude. That's probably not the intent, but keep it in mind :) WotC put up 4E forums so it can be discussed. They announce details of 4E so they can be discussed. Why shouldn't we talk about what we hope to see in 4E, what we think was wrong in 3.5, and anything in between?
Illithid00 11-22-07, 02:05 PM	It had better be, since 4e is the end of D&D as we know it. If everyone thinks that 4E is going to suck so bad, here's an idea: DON'T BUY IT! Stick with 3.5, and if you don't like 3.5, go back to 3E, or even back to AD&D. Sometimes on these forums it seems like the point of D&D to a lot of people is just to look at the rules and whine about how crappy they are. If you don't like them, DON'T USE THEM! How hard is that? Oh, and if you think that 4E is the end of D&D as we know it, maybe you better go back to the Basic Set. As I recall, people said similar things when AD&D came out. If you think it's the end of D&D, maybe you shouldn't be playing. Or at least, maybe you shouldn't be griping about 4E BEFORE YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT YET. As for why discuss it? Because it's important to us, so we want to talk about it. The whole "just shut up and don't discuss it until it is launched" seems a bit rude. That's probably not the intent, but keep it in mind :) WotC put up 4E forums so it can be discussed. They announce details of 4E so they can be discussed. Why shouldn't we talk about what we hope to see in 4E, what we think was wrong in 3.5, and anything in between? OK, then this thread should be in the 4E forum. But I'm also trying to make the point that, UNTIL YOU KNOW FOR SURE, there's not much of a point in saying "4E is the end of D&D" or "4E psionics is going to suck". We kinda have to accept that we just DO NOT KNOW.
TheKeyofE 11-22-07, 05:42 PM	We kinda have to accept that we just DO NOT KNOW. I could be wrong, but that seems to me like saying we shouldn't argue about religion but instead accept that we just DO NOT KNOW. The reality is quite opposite: more wars have been started over religion than anything else. My point is that while I respect your stance and somewhat agree, I don't think it's going to happen. People are societally pre-disposed to making snap judgements and uninformed, inflexible opinions, ESPECIALLY on the intarweb, then arguing about said inflexible opinions. I don't let it bother me because, quite honestly, it can be fun to watch sometimes. But I will throw my hat into the ring to say this: I think psionics in 4E will just be a reflavoring. It will have roughly the same mechanics as core, but with different powers and abilities available, and a different method of describing them. So a Psion will be basically like a wizard but with different talent trees available, a Psy-warrior will be either a fighter or a sword-mage, but with different talent trees, etc. So in essence, psionics will be just an add-on. This doesn't bother me because it should mesh very well with core. And I'm so excited for 4E that I'm going to buy it anyway, not matter what they do with psionics.
Illithid00 11-22-07, 06:49 PM	I could be wrong, but that seems to me like saying we shouldn't argue about religion but instead accept that we just DO NOT KNOW. The reality is quite opposite: more wars have been started over religion than anything else. Very true, and that upsets me too. It's the same idea as what I've been saying. We don't know, so why bother saying "this is how it will be" or "this is going to suck"?
CrimsonDeath 11-22-07, 08:12 PM	If everyone thinks that 4E is going to suck so bad, here's an idea: DON'T BUY IT! I never said it would suck. I just said it would be new. Different != Worse. I also never said that it would be the end of D&D, just the end as we know it. Meaning, it will be different. I don't think anyone will dispute that D&D has changed significantly from one edition to the next, and I expect there to be changes in the trasition from 3rd to 4th.
Haldrik 11-22-07, 11:29 PM	TheKeyofE: So in essence, psionics will be just an add-on. Suppose psionic classes have different abilities than other classes. Then there are things that psionic classes can do that other classes cant do. Perhaps psionic classes gets mind-altering powers, and other classes dont get them? Psionic classes get Telekinesis and other classes dont. And so on. A Wizard who wants mind-altering powers may have to take a Psionic talent tree. A Psion who wants elemental energy attacks may have to take a Wizard talent tree. In other words, Psionics wont be an add on. Its a slice of the pie.
Slagger the Chuul 11-22-07, 11:34 PM	Perhaps psionic classes gets mind-altering powers, and other classes dont get them? Psionic classes get Telekinesis and other classes dont. And so on. Or they might just get easier access to certain abilities, like the way some classes currently get specific spells earlier than others.
Haldrik 11-22-07, 11:40 PM	Or they might just get easier access to certain abilities, like the way some classes currently get specific spells earlier than others. Its virtually the same thing. A Wizard who takes a Psion talent tree to get mind-altering powers, will be getting those powers slightly later. The Psion will get them slightly earlier.
InkBlot 11-23-07, 02:18 PM	I seriously don't think psions will just be an add-on for the wizard class. With spell components and wizardly implements (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070917a&authentic=true) playing a much larger role in spellcasting in 4e, it just wouldn't work. Although I could imagine a Psychic Warrior talent tree for the Fighter, if the Fighter has any access to talent trees that aren't tied to weapons. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070816b)
brothersutek 11-23-07, 07:05 PM	Not to gang up on you, but we have. Since Complete Psionic came out. We still don't have answers or errata. Yes, we're a little bitter. +++ ummm a little bitter? :banghead: try uber bitter!
Wizard Random 11-24-07, 04:52 AM	And how does a wilder take Anarchic Initiate 10 pre-epic without having to multiclass or use Forgotten Realms material?!? What do you mean? A Wilder could take that class at 5th level : 2 knowledge skills at rank 8 needed : Wild Surge : Any Chaotic Seems easy enough
Wizard Random 11-24-07, 04:54 AM	I remember reading somewhere that there will be ways to transfer some 3rd edition stuff to 4th, kinda like the update booklet for 3.0 to 3.5, I can only hope that Psionics as we know it will simply need some info changed and BAM its good to go.
Azoriel 11-24-07, 05:03 AM	What do you mean? A Wilder could take that class at 5th level : 2 knowledge skills at rank 8 needed : Wild Surge : Any Chaotic Seems easy enough Indeed it does... Or rather it would be if wilders received knowledge (planes) as a class skill. (It's actually cross-class for wilders; check your XPH.) I suppose one could still do it (without resorting to the above mentioned tricks) by taking 4 levels in wilder and one level in some other class with the appropriate skill list, like wizard or psion... But, since the crux of the problem was that it wasn't a wilder-friendly PrC, that really doesn't help things.
Wizard Random 11-24-07, 06:46 AM	Indeed it does... Or rather it would be if wilders received knowledge (planes) as a class skill. (It's actually cross-class for wilders; check your XPH.) I suppose one could still do it (without resorting to the above mentioned tricks) by taking 4 levels in wilder and one level in some other class with the appropriate skill list, like wizard or psion... But, since the crux of the problem was that it wasn't a wilder-friendly PrC, that really doesn't help things. There are plenty of other classes that do similier things, take Fleshwarper?? for example. It requires the Wizard (or arcane caster) to have 10 ranks in Heal which is not a class skill. With something like Able Learner you could enter this class at level 10 (you could do it without Able learner) and finish at 20, or you could do all sorts of other things to make it a class skill without resorting to multiclassing. Its the only class that gives full progression (IIRC) so being a little hard to get in is understandable.
TheKeyofE 11-24-07, 08:33 AM	Its the only class that gives full progression (IIRC) so being a little hard to get in is understandable. Yeah, except that it's EASY for psions to enter. Too easy.
Bacris 11-24-07, 10:16 AM	Yeah, except that it's EASY for psions to enter. Too easy. Exactly. A Psion 5 qualifies, but a Wilder has to multiclass? And the class says it's for Wilders? These are the sorts of things that are wrong with Complete Psionic that WotC has yet to correct. Individually, they're no big deal. Combined, it's depressing.
Wizard Random 11-24-07, 10:25 AM	Exactly. A Psion 5 qualifies, but a Wilder has to multiclass? And the class says it's for Wilders? These are the sorts of things that are wrong with Complete Psionic that WotC has yet to correct. Individually, they're no big deal. Combined, it's depressing. Okay Okay I see what you mean, but you really dont have to multiclass to get in, Wilder 10/AI 10 seems fine
CrimsonDeath 11-24-07, 11:41 AM	There are plenty of other classes that do similier things, take Fleshwarper?? for example. It requires the Wizard (or arcane caster) to have 10 ranks in Heal which is not a class skill. Fleshwarper is a great PrC for Adepts, though. They get Heal as a class skill and a familiar as a class feature, and Fleshwarper gets full spellcasting and all kinds of class features. Alternatively, consider Wizard 6/Blood Magus 4/Fleshwarper 10. Full Wizard casting, level 16 Familiar advancement (which gets all the special abilities, 13 Int, and +8 natural armor), full Fleshwarping, and a couple of virtual item creation feats (to make up for the feat cost of entering Blood Magus). Anyway, that's sort-of changing the subject. Anarchic Initiate is the only PrC that advances Wild Surge. It appears to be a Wilder PrC. However, there aren't too many ways for a single-classed Wilder to get into the class by level 10, and none of them are in XPH or Complete Psionic. (Education from FRCS and Apprentice from DMG2 are the only ones I can think of.) So, you wind up with builds like Wilder 9/Psion 1/Anarchic Initiate 10, or Wilder 1/Psion 9/Anarchic Initiate 10, or even Psion 6/Anarchic Initiate 4/Illithid Slayer 10. If you ask me, those are some odd builds for a Wilder PrC... With something like Able Learner you could enter this class at level 10 (you could do it without Able learner) and finish at 20, or you could do all sorts of other things to make it a class skill without resorting to multiclassing. Its the only class that gives full progression (IIRC) so being a little hard to get in is understandable. Able Learner doesn't increase your cross-class skill max ranks, and that's the limiting factor. I listed two things I could think of that didn't involve multiclassing; I don't think that qualifies as "all sorts of things". If you have more suggestions, I'm listening. (Seriously, I'd love some advice on how to get a Wilder into Anarchic Initiate.)
Wizard Random 11-24-07, 12:45 PM	When I actually wrote that suggestion in my mind I was thinking "Durr save skill points Durr" since INT is not exactly a vital stat for a Wilder but somehow that didn't quite make it into my post.
angellis_ater 11-24-07, 01:46 PM	Okay Okay I see what you mean, but you really dont have to multiclass to get in, Wilder 10/AI 10 seems fine 8 ranks in a cross-class skill requires level 13... so how did you make that Wilder 10/AI 10 again?
Wizard Random 11-24-07, 02:18 PM	8 ranks in a cross-class skill requires level 13... so how did you make that Wilder 10/AI 10 again? Half your level plus three? 10 / 2 = 5 +3 = 8 I certainly hope I am correct (as this is how I play)or I have a feeling I'm about to be enlightened, all I can say is...be gentle :bigeyes:
calronmoonflower 11-24-07, 02:43 PM	Half your level plus three? 10 / 2 = 5 +3 = 8 I certainly hope I am correct (as this is how I play)or I have a feeling I'm about to be enlightened, all I can say is...be gentle :bigeyes: The three needs cut in half as well. 13/2= 6 Well in Dungeons & Dragons math anyway.
InkBlot 11-24-07, 02:43 PM	"Level plus three" is the cap for class skills. Cross class skills have a cap of half your class skill cap. So the maximum number of skill ranks you can have in a cross class skill is 0.5 * ( level + 3 ). So if your level is 10, then your cross class skill rank cap is 0.5 * ( 10 + 3 ) = 6.5.
Azoriel 11-24-07, 04:13 PM	There are plenty of other classes that do similier things, take Fleshwarper?? for example. It requires the Wizard (or arcane caster) to have 10 ranks in Heal which is not a class skill. Um, my copy of Lords of Madness says it's 4 ranks of Heal for Fleshwarper, which is quite possible with a cross-class skill by level 5 and without too much pain at that... If anything, Fleshwarper is an example of how things should have been for the Anarchic Initiate.
Wizard Random 11-24-07, 04:26 PM	Um, my copy of Lords of Madness says it's 4 ranks of Heal for Fleshwarper, which is quite possible with a cross-class skill by level 5 and without too much pain at that... If anything, Fleshwarper is an example of how things should have been for the Anarchic Initiate. Posts I make often come from memory, but are made in good faith... They should not necessarily be taken with blind faith. :embarrass
Lycanthromancer 11-24-07, 05:12 PM	I dunno. Blind faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toph) can kick ass, and hard. Just make sure you're an earthbending master when you have it. Otherwise, don't bother.
Ichor Spellka 11-24-07, 07:13 PM	Actually, Wizard Random was correct. Fleshwarper actually requires 10 ranks in the heal skill, because the Graft Flesh feat requires 10 ranks in the Heal skill, and you need the feat to gain access to the class. The 4 ranks in Heal are an error, or a lesser fail-safe against someone somehow gaining the Graft Flesh feat without having 10 ranks in Heal. There are a few other PrCs that have missing or false requirements, such as the Elocator requiring Mobility and Spring Attack, but forgetting to list that it needs Dodge as well.
Yhokhi 11-24-07, 07:23 PM	:eek: I'm shocked by how few psionic players talk about 4e.
Azoriel 11-24-07, 07:27 PM	Actually, Wizard Random was correct. Fleshwarper actually requires 10 ranks in the heal skill, because the Graft Flesh feat requires 10 ranks in the Heal skill, and you need the feat to gain access to the class. Ah, it would seem my own bookwork has been sloppy as well; my apologies.
Azoriel 11-24-07, 07:31 PM	:eek: I'm shocked by how few psionic players talk about 4e. There's not really much to talk about at this point; after all, we've yet to see what 4e psionics will look like. Well, other than that they won't be in the initial rulebooks. Again. (Though I suppose 1st Edition AD&D psionics left something to be desired...)
Yhokhi 11-24-07, 07:36 PM	There's not really much to talk about at this point. :eek: Except that psionics as-is will cease to exist. Nothing to talk about?! PS, there's an entire forum dedicated to 4e, and they seem to have plenty to talk about, even tho nobody (not even the developers) know for sure what 4e will look like. I hate to say it, but to refuse to talk about 4e seems idiotic.
InkBlot 11-24-07, 08:06 PM	In fact, we don't even know if psionics as-is will cease to exist. Maybe they'll just do a straight port after all. All we can do at this point is guess, and then comment on each other's guesses. It might seem idiotic to choose not to talk about 4e, but that's just the power of groupthink. It's not idiotic to wait for more information; it's not idiotic to stop and look before you leap to conclusions.
CrimsonDeath 11-24-07, 09:27 PM	:eek: Except that psionics as-is will cease to exist. Nothing to talk about?! We already covered that. In fact, we had a fight about it. I hate to say it, but to refuse to talk about 4e seems idiotic. Well, how does it seem if we merely decline to talk about 4e?
Yhokhi 11-25-07, 01:48 AM	Well, how does it seem if we merely decline to talk about 4e? It seems like lemmings off a cliff.
CrimsonDeath 11-25-07, 02:02 AM	It seems like lemmings off a cliff. ...We're being chased by Disney filmmakers? Seriously, why are you so obsessed with making us discuss 4e? We don't think there's anything to talk about. Do you have a specific topic we haven't discussed yet? A new way of looking at something? What do you want us to talk about?
AskaniPsion 11-25-07, 04:08 AM	I am not even going to worry about it until 4e is even released. There is not enough information to make a judgment. Psionics is definitely going to be in 4e - so until then I am enjoying my 3.5 Kalashtar telepath. :D
Wizard Random 11-25-07, 04:59 AM	Actually, Wizard Random was correct. I am SO glad I am not crazy, as I am on vacation with family I don't actually have my books on me. I am not even going to worry about it until 4e is even released. There is not enough information to make a judgment. Psionics is definitely going to be in 4e I second that opinion, its going to be included and I have enjoyed it throughout all three editions so far.
Bacris 11-25-07, 07:31 AM	Actually, there's a fair bit to talk about with 4E, given that the designers have stated psionics will be in it (yay), and that it will be another power source (as divine / arcane / etc are power sources for the first set of 4E rules). Unfortunately, that's all we know, which is likely due to the fact that they're spending most of their time on the PHB / DMG / MM rules and not worrying about the expansion rules just yet. Does it being a power source mean there will be a "Psionic" talent tree for the different classes? Or does it mean it will be its own set of classes? We don't know - WotC may not even know yet. So while I've been following the 4E discussions quite a bit (mostly at ENWorld, as the threads on this 4E forum seem to degrade pretty rapidly into pointless debates or covering the same ground), there hasn't been much discussion on 4E psionics... because there hasn't been much information released on 4E psionics... because the designers are likely not working on 4E psionics yet. That being said, given that we likely won't have 4E psionics until PHB2 in 2009, I'll likely be converting the XPH rules to 4E for the transitional period.
DarkTouch 11-25-07, 08:27 AM	It seems highly unlikely to me that Psionics will be nerfed at all in 4e. In fact, from what I've seen Psionics is going to be the core of the 4e add-on engine which makes me think that they'll put extra care into it. What we're seeing coming out of the previews for PHB I is a set of races, three power sources (Martial, Arcane, Divine) and four party role to fill (Defender, Striker, Controller, and Leader) with various different classes filling those roles. The first book to expand on that should be the PHB II coming out next year. My guess is we'll see the addition of the Psionics power source, a PC viable psionics race (A Gith Race seems likely), and psionic classes to fill each of the roles.. Controller(Psion), Striker(Wilder[Based on the Warlock being a striker]), Defender(Psychic Warrior), and Leader(Not a real guess, but the Society Mind fits this role the best). We also know that it looks like there will be one Campaign setting per year as part of the big release series. Forgotten Realms is year one.. Eberron is year two. With that in mind, I'll revise my psionic race guess and say that Kalashtar is going to be the next PC race there. I'm not worried about the mechanics. I doubt they'll be 100% power point based, but that doesn't matter too much to me. What worries me is the ability to do the fluff right. Complete Psi wasn't terrible mechanically.. where it sucked was flavor. Mind Flayer ancestors? Psionically getting your powers from Gods? Elemental Familiars? Just give me my nice simple 'invisible art' and I'll be happy.
TheKeyofE 11-25-07, 09:34 AM	*snip* Well said, sir.
draco1119 11-25-07, 10:29 AM	What we're seeing coming out of the previews for PHB I is a set of races, three power sources (Martial, Arcane, Divine) and four party role to fill (Defender, Striker, Controller, and Leader)... Meh. If I wanted to play d20 Modern, I'd buy those books instead of D&D.
Yhokhi 11-25-07, 11:32 AM	Crimson Death: Seriously, why are you so obsessed with making us discuss 4e? Umm... because 4e is the topic of this thread and people are off-topic if they don't discuss it? But seriously, A new way of looking at something? Exactly, we need to come up with a new way at looking at Psionics. The brilliance of 3.5 Psionics is that its mechanics are far superior to Vancian mechanics. However, these mechanics won't (can't) exist in the new 4e system. So, if there isn't any difference between the mechanics of an Arcane Wizard and the mechanics of a Psionic Psion, what will the difference be? Are their powers identical - in which case the Psion will cease to exist? DarkTouch: It seems unlikely to me that Psionics will be nerfed at all in 4e. I agree. WotC seems committed to including Psionics at some point. On the other hand, it seems WotC still isnt sure how. In the 4e play testing, Bruce Cordell played a new Wizard character and pretended it was a "Psion" ("with its serial numbers filed off"). If this is how developed Psionics was, it shows they don't have strong directions yet. On the other hand, if the end product has a Psion that is identical to the Wizard, then the Psion will cease to exist. Just call the Arcane Wizard a "Psion". No need for a Psionic power source. Pure redundancy is a disaster for the Psionic community. The Psionic power source must have desirable 'powers' (in the 4e sense of the word) that other power sources don't have. Bacris: Actually, there's a fair bit to talk about with 4E, given that the designers have stated psionics will be in it (yay), and that it will be another power source (as divine/arcane/etc are power sources for the first set of 4E rules). My impression is there are some at WotC who are strongly committed to making Psionics work and others that are strongly opposed. It seems most of the 4e developers are for Psionics but sensitive to those who oppose. Does it being a power source mean there will be a "Psionic" talent tree for the different classes? Or does it mean it will be its own set of classes? We don't know - WotC may not even know yet. Probably, the Psionic power source will have a set of classes: Psionic Defender: Psychic Warrior Psionic Controller: Psion Psionic Striker: Wilder? Lurk? Mind Thief? Illusionist? (!) Psionic Leader: Bard? (!) Ardent? Society Mind? The designers are likely not working on 4E psionics yet. The designers are definitely thinking about Psionics, but probably don't have strong proposals yet. Nevertheless there is urgency. If designers develop current classes in a way that makes psionics strictly redundant, then psionics will be useless, superfluous, and yet again an illegitimate part of D&D. The following is exactly what we should be talking about: Bacris: I'll likely be converting the XPH rules to 4E for the transitional period. Exactly. How would you convert XPH rules into 4e? Given that ALL classes will have 'powers' that can be used at will, per encounter, and per day, what would your 4e Psion look like? How is it different from what the 4e Wizard will look like? It's ok to not have precise details. There is plenty to talk about.
Bacris 11-25-07, 12:56 PM	I think the point is to look at the class abilities that exist now and migrate them. For example, you already have something akin to per day abilities - power points, racial abilities, as well as at will abilities - psionic fist, psionic shot, etc. The only thing psionics doesn't have yet is per encounter abilities. The big point is we don't want to back-slide into a Vancian style. What I would suggest is that the main arsenal of the psion (i.e. his power points), turn into a per-encounter mechanic. Be this cutting it by 1/4th or not is up to playtesting. Then, each psion would have his "big gun" per day abilities that outshine the per-encounter, while still leaving the options of the at-will. Personally, I'd like to see psionic focus retained, if a bit stream-lined, as it tended to dominate many psionic builds. I'm hoping as a 3rd party publisher to get my hands on a copy of the SRD soon and start converting the society mind over to 4E mechanics soon, but as I a) don't have the SRD and b) would likely have to sign an NDA if I did, I couldn't really talk about it here anyway. :)
CrimsonDeath 11-25-07, 05:08 PM	Umm... because 4e is the topic of this thread and people are off-topic if they don't discuss it? I didn't ask why you wanted us to discuss 4e in this thread. I asked why you wanted us to discuss it at all. If we don't have anything left to say, why not let the thread die? Or at least hibernate until we think of something? Exactly, we need to come up with a new way at looking at Psionics. No, I meant, do you, personally, already have a new way of looking at the issue of the inclusion of psionics in 4e? (Apparently, you do, but why didn't you just say that to begin with instead of trying to get us to think of it and say it?) I'm not opposed to the discussion. But I refuse to be bullied into it.
Wizard Random 11-25-07, 05:47 PM	For years and years and years Forgotten Realms has been a great source of entertainment for me. I have read most if not all of the actual novels, I LOVE reading through the DND related material and I just think the whole idea is COOL. What DOES worry me though is psionics has never been a "big thing" in FR. Its always taken a backdrop to magic and the practitioner's are few and far between. I am very worried that those "psi haters" are going to gain a much more solid power base since they can just default to "psionics is rare in FR so I wont let you play it" /sigh
InkBlot 11-25-07, 06:36 PM	I am very worried that those "psi haters" are going to gain a much more solid power base since they can just default to "psionics is rare in FR so I wont let you play it" From what I hear, they were already doing that in 3.5.
Haldrik 11-25-07, 07:46 PM	In my opinion, of all the classes Iv seen, Society Mind matches best the 4e concept of the 'Leader role'.
Psionx 11-26-07, 12:26 PM	Well, as long as they treat it like magic in their new system it should be pretty powerful and they'd look stupid to nerf it by saying different but equal because the only difference would be power. I just hope metapsionics will be even better and all the cool 'messing with time' powers will be intact or improved (wishful thinking). D&DI worries me, and so does this skill tree system which seems to remind me of diablo 2.
DarkTouch 11-26-07, 12:48 PM	Trees are nothing to worry about. All they are is a way to organize the customization options in a game. D20 Modern had it. Exalted had it. Heck, anything with pre-requisites options has trees. As for time powers. At the very least, I think you'll see nomad powers take a nice jump up given the way they're looking to improve mobility in the game.
InkBlot 11-26-07, 02:12 PM	If you look at pages 90 and 91 of your Player's Handbook, then you can see the ability trees implimented in 3.5. These trees became a lot taller and tangled with the addition of every splatbook, so the entirety of each tree is rarely presented in a graphical manner any more. There will still be feats in 4e, just like there are in 3e. They're just cleaning them up. Feats which read like alternate class features will become actual alternate class features. Abilities will be more closely tied to class, but there's a new multiclassing system that makes it easier to mix-and-match classes. I suspect that multiclassing will allow you to get a jump start on your new class's ability tree. So a 10th level Fighter who takes a level of Warlock will have access to better magic than a 1st level Warlock. A similar idea can be seen in Magic Of Incarnum and Tome Of Battle (in MoI your HD determines your melds' essentia capacity, and in ToB your initiator level is your class level + 1/2 your other levels).
Racinante 11-26-07, 02:23 PM	There will be no power points. Psions will manifest powers at will, per encounter, and per day. Psionics will probably become a school of spells. Exactly. Do you have a source for this quote?
InkBlot 11-26-07, 02:45 PM	Nviat said it on the first page of this thread. It seems like there will be no room for power points. Psions will manifest powers at will, per encounter, and per day. Wizards will too.
Racinante 11-26-07, 02:52 PM	I see, so Haldrik turned a statement of opinion into a statement of fact. I disagree regardless and will await official information on the form that 4E psionics will take. Here's hoping that the PP mechanic, in some way, shape, or form, remains.
Bacris 11-26-07, 02:58 PM	I doubt PP will go away entirely. The mechanic is one of the reasons psionics is enjoyed by players (at least, those that I've ever talked to who use it...). But I do think we'll see it change in the way it is implemented in 4E. Again, we have heard basically nothing about 4E psionics aside from: there will be a "psionics" power source, that psionics will be supported, but not in the first trio of books, and that psionics will be made available in the 4E SRD. We have not yet heard if psionics will be new classes, or how many, or if it will be new talent trees and feats, or how it will implement power points (or if it uses some other mechanic entirely), etc. Per encounter abilities can easily be power-point based. :)
Haldrik 11-26-07, 04:36 PM	Perhaps the per-encounter powers can simulate the feel of power points. Example, burn two per-encounter slots for one more powerful per-encounter effect, or even burn a per-day slot for a "nova" effect. Perhaps a feat can allow this. The Wild Surge power seems to translate more straightforwardly. In 4e it could manifest one or more class levels higher, but risk enervation and if unsuccessful lose a per-encounter slot and be dazed. I look forward to Psionics having at-will powers that a character can use without worrying about power point depletion. I suspect the Warlocks Eldrich Blast is an example of what an at-will power will look like. Reasonably powerful. In 4e, powers will generally function at full level. There wont be 18th-level Wizards memorizing lots of little 1st-level spells. The 4e Wizard will be more like the Psion is now, with original lo-level powers increasing in potency while advancing in levels. Thats why a 4e Fighter 10 who takes a level of Wizard 1 will manifest the Wizard power at class level 11. So far the 'Gish' (Fighter/Wizard) multiclass is a success, they may even not need to make a new 'Gish' class. The Spellsword class is an Arcane Warrior who uses magic to enhance melee combat, but isnt a Gish. In the developer blogs, they avoid specific rules and mechanical crunch. No doubt they are still tinkering and tweaking them. But theyr pretty clear at explaining their objectives and what the 4e system as a whole will look like.
Yhokhi 11-26-07, 09:02 PM	I'm just glad to see psionic players talking about 4e! :cheer: :cheer:
Yhokhi 11-26-07, 09:14 PM	Haldrik, Say in 4e, the per encounter power is always at "full power" according to class level. This like a Psion who always spends max PP for every energy attack. So, it's possible that the 4e Psion could have an ability to "divide up" a per encounter power. Instead of a Psion 12 manifesting one Energy Ball at max level 12, they could decide to manifest it at level 6 now, and then another one later at level 6. This is sort of like PP. Personally, I would rarely divide a power like that because the best part of psionics is going nova. :D
d0yen 11-27-07, 12:36 AM	Provided you ignore complete psionics... ... Which most people seem to do anyways. Forty bucks for three feats and six powers. :confused:
TheKeyofE 11-27-07, 12:44 AM	He means that there's only about three feats and six powers worth using in that book. So buying the whole book just for that is a waste.
Salick 11-27-07, 11:59 AM	My 4E Psionic predictions based upon careful reading of 4E core teasers. 1. Psychokinesis discipline will become Golden Donkey discipline. 2. All Psionic classes will be required to use tatoos, crystals, and third eyes to activate normal class abilities. 3. Psychic warrior will become Sword Psion. 4. Soul knife will become Soul Sword or perhaps Sword Soul. Also the mind blade will be known as a Soulsaber and be able to deflect laser err....beholder eye beams.
Forgember 11-28-07, 04:31 PM	I don't know about you folks but I sorta hope they just drop it all together. Thinking either Wizard or Sorc will be rather close to Psionics in this new system anyway, mechanic wise that is. Perhaps they will make a new school of magic devoted to the mind and give you bonuses when you hold crystals.
CrimsonDeath 11-28-07, 05:00 PM	I'd be happy if they kept psionics and ditched crystals.
DarkTouch 11-28-07, 10:47 PM	Interestingly enough, I read an unconfirmed rumor that they will be nerfing Charms and other mind-effecting powers under the arcane power source specifically with an eye towards leaving that open as a specialty for psionics. So weird.
InkBlot 11-29-07, 01:02 AM	I'd be happy if they kept psionics and ditched crystals. Although they really did go overboard with the crystal fetish in 3.5 (why can't a dorje just be a (http://www.greenkiwi.co.nz/footprints/faq/dorje.htm) dorje (http://www.viewzone.com/dorje.html)?), crystals (http://www.llewellynencyclopedia.com/article/279) are an integral part of psionic flavor. I'll be really upset if 4e psionics doesn't use at least some crystals (http://www.llewellynencyclopedia.com/article/278).
Haldrik 11-29-07, 02:09 AM	I strongly support crystals ... as optional. :D Good theme for feats. Good raw material for magic items. But there should be other (more historical) concepts as well.
Haldrik 11-29-07, 02:17 AM	Kunadam said the following. He lives in Hungary where the 4e preview book, Races and Classes, is on sale early. Psi will appear sometime and it will be a different power source. They design arcane and divine magic so that psi can fit in. Power over mind will be the main (flagship) feature of psi, thus [Arcane] charms are going to be nerfed [to] avoid too much overlap.
awaken_D_M_golem 11-29-07, 06:29 PM	Though I suppose 1st Edition AD&D psionics left something to be desired. A little bell goes off, deep in the snake brain region - the corpus colosum, of ol' Awakey's Golemnic "Brain". 1st Edition Psionics: Gestalt at 1st level Front Loaded 9th (7th) level "spells" possibly available 20+ times a day Core PHB - before Bards DMG - right in the middle, and in magic items, and many monsters MM - most high level monsters D&DG - super secret table of doom But wait ... Along came a Brain Mole - bzz zap DM: You just lost Mind Thrust (rolls dice again) DM: You just lost Empty Mind (rolls dice again) DM: Your Id Insinuation just made 1 Brain Mole into a Robot. DM: You just lost Mind Bar (player howls) DM: You and your Brain Mole Robot just made the other Brain Mole into a Robot. Player: { ... removes soiled diaper ... } Now I have a chance to turn a Class V diety into a Robot, right?! DM: Oh snap ??? !!! DM: Oops Player: Oops? DM: There's the other Brain Mole, and you are now that Brain Mole's Robot. Player: Oh Snap ! Player 2: I'm a Fighter, and I smite the Brain Mole DM: Which one? Player 2: Oh yeah, all Brain Moles look the same, umm ... Player 2: If I hit the right one, does Player1 get to be my robot? DM: no
Yhokhi 11-30-07, 05:16 PM	Why can't a dorje just be a (http://www.greenkiwi.co.nz/footprints/faq/dorje.htm) dorje (http://www.viewzone.com/dorje.html)? Huh. The real dorge is cool! I can picture an ancient psionist with one. While levitating.
hovnarr 11-30-07, 06:12 PM	Although they really did go overboard with the crystal fetish in 3.5 (why can't a dorje just be a dorje?), crystals are an integral part of psionic flavor. I'll be really upset if 4e psionics doesn't use at least some crystals. A dorje is by definition an object symbolizing lightning. So any rod-shaped object could pass as a dorje (see the second link for the chinese variant for instance).
Favored Enemy 11-30-07, 06:24 PM	The Random House Unabridged Dictionary defines dorje as a small trident symbolizing power. This seems more generic and perhaps useful than the Tibetan Buddhist equivalent of the double terminated Hindu ritual tool known as the Vajre, which to me doesn't resemble a trident.
Yhokhi 11-30-07, 06:28 PM	Hovnarr, I see your point that the crystal "dorje" can arguably qualify as a dorje too. What appeals to me about the Tibetan dorje is it is both "mental" and "medieval"-ish. I like when Psionics is Sci Fi and Pulpy. Eberron is cool. DDO is fun. But it doesn't have to be Sci Fi. Psionics can also drink mead with the Ranger, while the Wizard plays jokes with cantrips and the orc just jumped in through the window. Psionics = Illusionist + Enchanter + Bard + Monk + etc.
DarkTouch 11-30-07, 10:08 PM	Huh. I would have expected that psionics was hanging out at the anthropomorpisized metaphysical concepts bar along with Divine, that roudy Arcane while Incarnum sobs into her ale.
Haldrik 12-01-07, 03:07 PM	:smirk:
awaken_D_M_golem 12-01-07, 03:35 PM	There's a deliberate influence in 1st Edition, for Id, Ego and Super Ego ideas from Psychology of 100 years ago. Largely, these ideas have been abandoned by Psychology. Freud may have thought everything was sexual and repressed, but his followers don't. Contemporary pop-psychology says "Everyone is a Victim". Psychology certainly doesn't, but people believe what they believe. Haldrik has pointed to the Vikings. Mono-Psychism is a theology (of sorts) that some (some, as in not all) Muslims believed in the time after Averroes. It means One Mind. Everything is the expression of the United Mind. You are. Believers are. Non-believers are. This idea never caught on. A century later the Iranians, who were sunni at the time, started the Immanence ideas, which immediately caught on with the Sufis. This linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsychism) is just a stub. So ... Everything is Sexual Everything is Repressed Everything is Victim Everything is Vikings Everything is Mind Sounds like some Psionics ideas to me.
CrimsonDeath 12-01-07, 05:54 PM	Everything is Vikings I have never agreed with anything you've ever said more than I agree with this.
Haldrik 12-01-07, 06:46 PM	"Everything is Vikings." I have never agreed with anything you've ever said more than I agree with this. :D I love the Vikings! The more you look into them the more interesting they get.
turalisj 12-01-07, 07:36 PM	Here's my answer to the question: We don't know what 4e will be like, so you'll have to wait and see for yourself. If you can't deal with it, lock yourself in a closet until 4e comes out.
RavinRay 12-02-07, 09:35 AM	News fron EN World (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3916807&postcount=1): looks like enchantment (=telepathy) will go to mostly psionic, rather than magical. Enchantment is nerfed to be saved for other classes (others they state that it will be the psi).
Lycanthromancer 12-02-07, 03:51 PM	Repressed Sexual Victim Vikings of the Mind? You're one wierd cookie, Awakened_D_M_Golem.
Suldarr'essalar 12-03-07, 02:08 AM	News fron EN World (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3916807&postcount=1): looks like enchantment (=telepathy) will go to mostly psionic, rather than magical. This could mean, that psionics will loose some parts (disciplines) to the wizard. Psychokinesis? Metacreation?
hovnarr 12-03-07, 04:12 AM	I'm guessing metacreation, if anything. Telekinesis, clairsentience and telepathy have always been the hallmarks of the whole "mind over matter power comes from within" concept. Next after that, psychometabolism (several uses known from Star Wars, Lawnmower Man, various cultural esoterica). I'm guessing elemental explosions and creating something from nothing will be the domain of wizards and druids. That seems logical, if one wants to make the division of effects more stringent. Psionics could very well have direct offensive effects, but I'm guessing they'd be more metabolically/molecularly linked. Things like Matter Agitation, Crystallize or even Flesh to Stone and Horrid Wilting always seemed more psionic to me than creating impressive blasts of energy just like that.
InkBlot 12-03-07, 08:55 AM	Psionics better at things involving the mind? That's just how it was in 3.5. In the current edition, psionics is better at some things and worse at others. Now they're just stating that fact directly. I doubt they'll take away any uniquely psionic effects, but I wouldn't be too sad to see most of the energy x powers go. They were always kind of off-flavor anyway. They just need to make sure crazy teenage wild talents can burn down houses with their angst.
TheKeyofE 12-03-07, 11:10 AM	They just need to make sure crazy teenage wild talents can burn down houses with their angst. That's what Matter Agitation (or whatever the 4E equivalent is called) is for.
Psionx 12-03-07, 11:36 AM	If they make wizards into exclusively blasters with no save or die/save or suck I will laugh as the psionics boards become more popular and there is a major shift in the discussions of of the optomization boards.
CrimsonDeath 12-03-07, 12:55 PM	You know what's another thing Psionics seems to be better at manipulating? Time. I wonder if they'll build on that.
Haldrik 12-03-07, 02:08 PM	This is the way I understand Psionic flavor too. Hovnarr: Telekinesis, clairsentience and telepathy have always been the hallmarks of the whole "mind over matter power comes from within" concept. Next after that, psychometabolism (several uses known from Star Wars, Lawnmower Man, various cultural esoterica). Regarding Psychomentabolism as mental, Norse shapeshifters exemplify this as well. I also consider Teleportation Psionic, being a form of sending ones mind outofbody. Psionic power source: Telekinesis Telepathy Teleportation-Time-Divination Shapechange Energy: heat, cold, sonic, electric, plus acid. Psionic: force, sonic, light (electric, magnetic), gravity. Arcane: fire (heat), water (cold). Nature: acid. Divine: positive. For flavor reasons, I feel heat and cold energy (ie, Fire and Water) should go to Arcane Wizard. But sonic energy is a Force, like a shockwave, and is Telekinetic, and belongs to the Psionic power source. Acid belongs to Nature Druid, but perhaps a Corrosive acid that only dissolves inorganic substances could be Arcane Wizard. Electric energy could belong to just about everybody. It could be Arcane as a subset of Air in the sense of lightning, it could be Nature as a subset of bioelectrical auras. I understand Electric as a subset of Light (Electro-Magnetic Force). As part of Light flavor, it could be part of Divine "enlightenment" flavor. The flavor of glowing haloes and celestial gods hurling lightning at oathbreakers works too. But also, "Light" was synonymous with "consciousness" in the premodern worldviews, an aspect of psyche (soul-mind). Thus Psionic. Modern speculation about consciousness corroborates the ancient worldview, such as the electromagnetic theory of consciousness that says that the electromagnetic field surrounding nerve cells is what carries a persons consciousness, and not the cells themselves. And a related theory focusing on the quantum states. Thus consciousness is literally made out of an aspect of light. While these fields or states of light are intimately "entangled" with a physical body, the location of consciousness is distinct from the body. As such, there really is a kind of "soul" sotospeak, separate from the body. This Light, this status-field-aura-soul-psyche-mindforce, is Psionic. By extention, the manipulation of Light (including Electricity and Magnetic Force) by Telekinetic Force, is also Psionic. By the way, Psionic can also "evoke" pure Telekinetic Force, like Magic Missile, Wall of Force, Mage Armor, etc.
Haldrik 12-03-07, 02:52 PM	In the Psionic power source, Telekinetic "Force", should probably be understood as vaguely some aspect of the Grand Unification Theory, where electro-magnetic force, weak nuclear force and strong nuclear force, unify into a singular field of force at very high energy. Likewise add the force of Gravity per the Theory of Everything. Telekinetic Force = electric force, magnetic force, nuclear forces, gravitational force, etc.
Bacris 12-03-07, 03:22 PM	I'm not sure I want that much physics in my D&D. Just some food for thought.
Haldrik 12-03-07, 04:00 PM	Light = Psionic Haldrik: "Light" was synonymous with "consciousness" in the premodern worldviews, an aspect of psyche (soul-mind). Thus Psionic. Modern speculation about consciousness corroborates the ancient worldview, such as the electromagnetic theory of consciousness that says that the electromagnetic field surrounding nerve cells is what carries a persons consciousness, and not the cells themselves. And a related theory focusing on the quantum states. Thus consciousness is literally made out of an aspect of light. While these fields or states of light are intimately "entangled" with a physical body, the location of consciousness is distinct from the body. As such, there really is a kind of "soul" sotospeak, separate from the body. This Light, this status-field-aura-soul-psyche-mindforce, is Psionic. Psionic: Telekinetic Force = electric force, magnetic force, nuclear forces, gravitational force, etc. Bacris: I'm not sure I want that much physics in my D&D. Actually I agree. The quasi-medieval fantasy setting of D&D should avoid the technicalities of modern science. Grouping high-energy physics (light, electricity, magnetism, nuclear energy, gravity, and perhaps even consciousness) into a vague catagory, called "Force" (mindforce), simplifies the game and remains true to medieval concepts, like "quintessence", the Fifth Element, and the influence of "psyche". Oppositely, its better to NOT group light, electricity, magnetism, gravity, etcetera with the Arcane power source. The archetype of the four elements (Air, Earth, Fire, Water) must remain uncomplicated by our modern concepts of chemistry and physics. So anything that sounds vaguely like "light", "energy", "force", or "consciousness" groups in the Psionic power source. Anything that sounds vaguley like "matter", "substance", "alchemy", "four elements" groups in the Arcane power source. The only exception to the rule would be heat-cold molecular energy, which matches Fire-Water and is therefore Arcane. Anything that vaguely connotes Fireball is Arcane.
Haldrik 12-03-07, 04:18 PM	This goes beyond Psionic, but helps establish Psionic within the context of other 4e power sources ... Arcane power source (official), like Wizard. Nature power source (unofficial but popular), like Druid. Psionic power source (official), like Telepath, and (popular) like Telekinesis. Complex organic matter comprising animals and plants (corresponding to modern complex carbon-based molecules), includes: flesh, bone, ivory, leather, horn, fur, blood, chiton, wood, paper, cotton, linen, silk, leaves, food, etcetera. These organic, "living" or "natural", substances belong to the unofficial but popular Nature power source, and not the Arcane power source. The flavor of Natures complex, holistic, interrelated ecosystem is beyond the flavor of Arcanes formulaic, atomistic, artificial alchemy. In other words, transmuting oneself with a Stone Skin power would be Arcane (Earth), but shapechanging oneself with Bark Skin power would be Nature (Plant). D&D strongly associates organic Shapechange, especially the Wildshape power, with Druidic Nature magic. It pains me to say it, but Psionic should probably split off psycometabolism and give it to the Nature power source, despite the fact it is inherently Psionic flavor too. The motive for giving shapechange away is to make the Nature power source fun and powerful too, which Wildshape is. Arcane: transmutation into Air, Earth, Fire, or Water. Nature: shapechange into Animal or Plant. As such, many 4e Psychic Warriors would use the new multiclass rules to pick up Nature shapechange powers.
Lokathor 12-03-07, 06:16 PM	There can be overlap between power sources. It was said that druids are probably going to go much less towards the spellcasting and more towards the wildshape direction, but other people (other power sources that is) should also be able to transmute and change things. Particularly, why do energy types need to be bound to only one power source? Since there won't be psionics in the PHB, why would they not start the players off able to use all 5 energy types (plus Force/Positive/Negative) with just Arcane/Martial/Divine?
CrimsonDeath 12-03-07, 06:36 PM	Particularly, why do energy types need to be bound to only one power source? Since there won't be psionics in the PHB, why would they not start the players off able to use all 5 energy types (plus Force/Positive/Negative) with just Arcane/Martial/Divine? Well, in 3rd, Sonic is much easier for psionics and Acid is much easier for arcane/divine.
Lokathor 12-03-07, 07:17 PM	Sonic damage is a strange beast. In 3.5, Nothing has resistance to it so it's always weaker. Since fewer resistances and immunities are supposed to exist in 4e, perhaps it won't have to automatically be weaker.
awaken_D_M_golem 12-04-07, 05:05 PM	When people get confused about roll- vs. role- playing, just point them to this: Repressed Sexual Victim Vikings of the Mind? You're one wierd cookie, Awakened_D_M_Golem. My :cookie: tastes like :chicken: . And when the metamorphosis expires, my stomach will re-taste it like (digested) cookies. Speaking of Physics, Newton's clockwork universe fits neatly into Mechanus. And before Einstein, Physics thought there was something called The Ether. Obviously, D&D has absconded those ideas rather well (imho). 4th Edition is being written late enough, to take into account not just the prediction of Dark Matter and Dark Energy, but that Dark Energy has been found. This means that some very small (very very small) portion of Einstein's universe, is but a fantasy. An extremely well educated fantasy believed to be true. While that sounds like Planescape to me, I figure if someone with the Fizix Nawlij can "emote" the difference between Dark Matter Minus Einstein = stuff Psionic can use ... I love run on sentences. I would love to know the difference (linguistic note: I'm refering here to Dark Matter Minus Einstein, not run on sentences). I'd put it in the game. Simply put: Einstein was slightly wrong, and Psionics can use that. What is it? :thinks:
CrimsonDeath 12-04-07, 07:28 PM	And before Einstein, Physics thought there was something called The Ether. Actually, it was the Michelson-Morley experiment (1887) that suggested the nonexistence of the luminiferous ether. (Ironically, they were trying to measure its effects only to discover that it didn't have any.) It wasn't until 1915 that Einstein published his General Theory of Relativity.
awaken_D_M_golem 12-05-07, 05:07 PM	Good Stuff. What's his name, in the wheelchair, said information disappears in Black Holes. Before, physics said information never disappears. D&D has those worm-things formed from memories taken by the River Styx. { ... d&d also has time regression ... } Oh, Stephen Hawking. Physicists didn't like it when he said that the first time. Psionics has all those Stygian powers now, why not "worm eating". Swim in the Styx, remember off-beat memories of someone else, have Charon-oloths give you the stiff.
RavinRay 12-09-07, 06:40 PM	Here's another post on mind-affecting abilities going mostly psionic from Races and Classes: Power Sources: Additional power sources will be added in subsequent handbooks. It is stated, as an example, that there will be a Psi power source later on for psionics. Given this, the mind-affecting spells of wizards and clerics will be toned down or removed so that psions will have their own flavor. This is because the designers felt psionics weren’t different enough from magic before.
DarkTouch 12-09-07, 08:16 PM	Its good to see that the designers were looking at the flavor and realized it was in need of borders. Lack of understanding regarding psionic flavor us what gets us things like the 'Divine Mind'. I am ok with there being an overlap of effects.. some things are just universally useful and thus need to have each power source's own take on it.
Bacris 12-09-07, 10:57 PM	Yup. I don't mourn the niche feel that it sounds like psionics will be given. Instead, I see it as an opportunity to win over more folks to utilizing psionics in their games. :)
Wizard Random 12-09-07, 11:39 PM	Yup. I don't mourn the niche feel that it sounds like psionics will be given. Instead, I see it as an opportunity to win over more folks to utilizing psionics in their games. :) I have been talking to a few people I know who absolutely refuse to allow psionics in their game, even going as far to never use Mind Flayers. After discussing the changes in 4E and what form psionics might take therein they actually seem to be happy about it.