Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 08-01-07, 07:34 PM	Traditionally, D&D has assumed that classes might be organized in certain ways. Bards, barbarians, and sorcerers usually aren't really organized. Clerics are general members of churches, temples, and such. Druids are members of various sects and orders. Fighters might be found in military organizations, mercenary companies, or the like. Monks are organized in monasteries. Paladins are sometimes in orders or their own. Rangers could have their own orders, or be attached to druidic orders, or possibly be in military or mercenary organizations like fighers. Rogues are sometimes organized in "Thieves' Guilds." Wizards are part of academies/universities, mage guilds, or sometimes secretive arcane orders How do you see the various psionic classes being organized? One possibility is that, like sorcerers, they're not really organized at all. I think this is the default for wilders. Another possibility is that they're seamlessly incorporated into non-psionic organizations. For instance, you might find pious egoists at a Temple of Pelor, wearing Pelor paraphernalia (sun-themed clothing, maybe a holy symbol) who help out with healing, or you find psychic warriors among the Royal Knights of the Realm, along with fighters, paladins, knights, samurai etc, or in a mercenary company, and shapers might be part of some artificer's guild, along with wizards with item creation feats, artificers, etc. Another possibility is that they're in organizations of their own. Frequently, in these scenarios, the psionicists have some sort of monastic flavor, learning to perfect their minds in isolated monasteries in mountains with a suspicious resemblance to the Himilayas. Alternatively, where psionics is more "mainstream," you could incorporate it into settings with less of a reclusive flavor. You could have a Psionicists' Guild on main street, with the Mage's Guild across the street, the Church of St. Cuthbert to the right, and the Thieves' Guild to the left, with all psions, psychic warriors, soulknives, etc, expected to use their powers in accordance with the guild's approval, and with psionics being something ordinary people in town are, for better or for worse, accustomed to and expect.
Ryuu_Tenshi 08-01-07, 07:38 PM	I think that like any organization, this is largely setting-dependent. One setting might have secluded monasteries of psions and psychic warriors in the mountains, with wilders being insane barbarians; another might have all psychic characters randomly cropping up as sorcerers do; another might have psionic colleges and universities and have it all seamlessly integrated into the world. You can even see organizational differences within a setting: just look at the way the Inspired are organized vs the Kaleshtar.
InkBlot 08-01-07, 07:57 PM	In a little setting I whipped up for a quick game, there are clubs where people with a lot of psionic talent tend to congregate. Like coffee shops. But you would never know it, thanks to mindlink. So on one level you've got this nice quiet coffee shop - a great place to sit back, relax, and and let your mind wander - and on another you've got heated debates about metaphysics, philosophy, and what your favorite incense is. There are also a handful of powerful psions who hide away in distant towers, and they occasionally take apprentices. But not all psionic characters go to places like that. Maybe half. Most people lead unexamined lives, and wild talents crop up equally frequently in all populations, so most psionic people will never investigate the roots of their abilities. They'll never contemplate their uncanny ability to always know direction and location when they're hunting in the woods, or wonder how their hands turned into claws of the beast when their home was raided by bugbears years ago. Because wild talents are prevalent, psionic characters are often members of other organizations rather than being strictly a psion or strictly a wilder.
CrimsonDeath 08-01-07, 09:39 PM	Personally, I'd always conceptualized psionicists as belonging to one of three types of organizations. On one hand, you have thsoe who develop their powers completely independently (probably appropriate for Wilders). On the other hand, there might be colleges, temples, guilds, monasteries, or other organizations dedicated to the study of psionics, or even just sharing lore in general. This would work for Psions, Psychic Warriors, and possibly Ardents. Then, on the gripping hand, pretty much any psionic character might benefit from a Master/Apprentice relationship.
Halaku 08-01-07, 11:32 PM	On my first read of the Psionics handbook I got the impression of three types of psionic people. The driven loner who pushes themselves and considers psionics an individual profession, given that ones mind is the most personal, sacred place that one has. The mentalist that explores, adapts, and teaches, trying to bring the mind to its full potential and help guide others along. And lastly, the family/village. Psionics are normal, Jeff across the way uses control fire every year to make sure the fields are clean for planting, Mark the watchman always reads the thoughts of newcomers to the village to make sure they're safe, and so on.
AntiDjinn 08-02-07, 12:11 AM	Psions could fit into any organizational structure, or none at all; there is no requirement for a psion to have even met another member of the class to learn his craft. Wilders: Organization, what is that? It would almost be missing the point of the class to constrain yourself with a social structure. The wilder is like the guy who gets kicked out of college for blowing up a chem lab and then getting drunk and trashing a frat house. The last organization of which he was a member was probably glad to see him go. Soul Knives and Psychic Warriors are likely rolled into whatever structures are available for Fighters and Monks. Ardents may or may not be part of a church or other hierarchical institution. The Ardent does not bow down before an ideal, he lives it. He does not serve a faith, he exemplifies it. The Ardent is a perfect example of piety without subservience, so there is not need for him to jump to the orders of others. The Divine Mind. Seriously, who cares? The average Lurk is probably a member of whatever passes for a thieves' (or assassins') guild. He may be considered a specialist, and may only get assignments that call for his unique abilities, but he would doubtless benefit from being part of a larger whole, if only for ease in finding jobs. Various Psi PrC's have implied or stated structures. The Warmind has an organization, and they have control of one of the prereqs. Illithid Slayers have a loose network (in most worlds, anyway). Thrallherds provide their own organization, but likely have no desire to network with other Thrallherds (the last thing a charismatic cult leader wants to see in his territory is another one).
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-02-07, 12:31 AM	I would say that psionic characters organize in exactly the same manner that spellcasters do. This is for compatibility, actually. It's easier to integrate psionics into a setting when you don't have to make it different, as you can say it's been there all along and the PCs just didn't notice. A kineticist is perfectly at home in a local mage's guild, and can hotly debate elemental magic with any other wizard. A shaper may have helped build the mage's guild. A few telepaths can be found in any town, swindling inattentive people out of their day's wages, right next to the illusionists and prestidigitators. A family of nomads may run a shipping business with a few high-end supernatural methods of transportation. A seer will tell fortunes and maybe do some freelance work for the town guard every once in a while. A devout Egoist/Sangehirn is indistinguishable from a cleric of Pelor (so long as undead aren't around). A wilder can be just as angsty and explosive as a sorcerer (more so, actually). A psychic warrior can casually discuss battle tactics with an eldritch knight and neither would ever guess that the other is, mechanically speaking, very different. Soulknives spend their days in disciplined training right alongside monks, some might not even recognize their psionic talents differ from ki until they actually put their martial skills to the test. Funny, I just realized no psionic class gets Perform as a class skill. You don't need to make psionics different. In fact, psionics-magic transparency encourages keeping them nearly the same.
zeratulcraft 08-02-07, 12:37 AM	My old Psychic Warrior/War Mind started a school for psions, travelled around the continent looking for capable psionicists and recruiting them, they had a place to stay, free food, protection (quite obvious, I was a construct with the symbol of a god of war and wisdom emblazoned upon his chest), and all they had to do in return was teach anyone who showed talent. Later that year, the Order of the Prism Owl (war and wisdom god = Athena) was born and became roughly autonomous. I continued my adventuring and left the teachers to their work. So yeah, it's roughly like a wizard school, though our town has one of those too, so there's wizard/psions and stuff all over the place...
CrimsonDeath 08-02-07, 04:17 AM	Ardents may or may not be part of a church or other hierarchical institution. The Ardent does not bow down before an ideal, he lives it. He does not serve a faith, he exemplifies it. The Ardent is a perfect example of piety without subservience, so there is not need for him to jump to the orders of others. I like that. It reminds me of an Ardent I nearly got a chance to play. (He grew up in a temple of Tempus, and you described his take on Tempus' teachings rather well.)
Lazigothi 08-02-07, 02:08 PM	I think along the lines of the above posts, which depends on individual DM's settings, a good flavor question would be to ask about the need for one. Given a need, even Bards, Barbarians, and Sorcerers could have groups/ organizations. If memory serves, in 2ed, it was suggested that Psionicists might be required to have a mentor until they were 7th level, and that might lend itself to work with ideas for organizations. In Dark Sun, there was the Order (?) even though the need didn't seem to be there since psionics wasn't as feared as magic. There could be local organizations or those that spand across massive boundaries. In my campaign, I have an organization in one city-state that was inspired by PsiCorp from Babylon 5 that I called the Shadow Minds. They wear shiny black robes and matte black cloaks with small badge that resembles a stylized eye and carry quarterstaves. They are all telepaths and take other classes and feats to excell at disarming and subduing foes in combat. They are posted primarily at entrances, the city gates, and protect the king. Their role is as law enforcement and counter-espionage. They also have a seat on the council with the power to suggest laws that can make its way for approval by the king. They are ruthless when it comes to enforcing the law, and they cover their tracks well.
awaken_D_M_golem 08-02-07, 07:28 PM	The mechanics of the Erudite class, even in improved form, suggest it should Charm Person and Hypnosis every single Psionic or Arcane character around. Just gimme your stuff. It'll only take 3 rounds and 2 checks. Why waste with paying for it? For all the other classes, being socialable, for the same reasons above, would be enough. Don't Hypno me, let's cooperate instead. Heck, even a Soulknife can start with 5 powers and 10pp, and when a PsyRef becomes affordable, I feel like a change. A Wilder has high charisma, and socializes some extra capacity from a towns power stucture. I've done something for you, now leave, please!
aotrscommander 08-03-07, 09:57 AM	Personally, I don't assign any character class to any sort or organisation, really. Some organisations lend themselves to certain character classes, certainly (monestaries and monks, perhaps), but I tend to design an organisation and fill it with whatever classes/persons seem useful at the time. (That's my biggest bugbear with many of the PrCs. I don't want crap loads of pointless organisations in my games. A guild here and there in urban areas - maybe - and that's about it, apart from paramilitary or military groups.) So, psionicists fit in with whatever group is appropriate to the locale, if any.
Scion of Coldshard 08-03-07, 10:28 AM	In single file, to hide their numbers.
Bacris 08-03-07, 10:37 AM	In single file, to hide their numbers. :rimshot: :rolleyes: :dancin:
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 08-03-07, 06:56 PM	I would say likely into "monasteries," colleges, and whatever kind of group philosophers gather into - other than the unemployment office, lol (take no offense, some of my friends are philosophy majors). Organizations not unlike the cities of illithids seems another route. But I have tinkering with a possible group (PrC?) for Faerun: the Disciples of the New Weave. Think Metaconcert on the biggest scale ever. All these psions, joining their power, amplifying it to compete with the Weave and the Shadow Weave. Insisting on imitating the greatest strength of the Weave while trying to also maintain their individual strength and source of power - denying the "flaw" of the true Weave. The plans aren't going so well.
Halaku 08-06-07, 01:01 AM	In single file, to hide their numbers. *coughLockcough* :D
Nom 08-07-07, 02:20 AM	In single file, to hide their numbers.Bah! :) I was going to say "by watching the visible signs of manifestation, unless they've made their Concentration check to hide them".
Bedlamtom 08-08-07, 02:03 AM	In a campaign of mine there was a city dedicated to universities. Anybody with the int and cash could become a wizard. If you thought your child had sorcerer potential you could have them tested once a year in your home village and if they had talent you could petition for a scholarship. If their talent turned out to be psionic they were sent to the crystal pyramid...a university for psionics on the outskirts of university city. (I've forgotten the name of the city) if their potential was more martial than contemplative they were trained as Psy warriors. Soul Knives and Pyrokineticists were the results or trying to train untalented to become psionic. The common man didn't know the difference between a wizard, sorcerer, or a psion...they all did scary stuff that wasn't well understood.
Sarlax 08-08-07, 02:35 AM	Let's review the capabilities of psions. They're very smart and educated. Other than that, they're distinct. They have a small set of potent abilities. Their supernatural talents are focused. Psions don't depend on each other for knowledge - their talents are so diverse that they can't train each other in a straightforward way. How does a kineticist teach a telepath? At best, psions will probably teach other how to focus, meditate, and concentrate. I think psions will usually end up in guilds or other organizationsthat their abilities complement, but that there won't be a common Psions' Guild or psiocracy. Seers will gravitate to groups that gather information, telepaths will work with negotiators, kineticists will join with mercanaries, etc. Although they don't belong to a single group, I doubt there'd be any real conflict between them. There's probably professional respect and the shared bond of being intelligent professionals. The only point of conflict might be between kineticists and egoists, since their abilites are both lent to direct combat, but I imagine it might manifest mostly as good-natured rivalry. Even then, they will still cooperate, since egoists make nice melee fighters while kineticists handle range. While the high-level powers might produce more contention or take away from the psions' basic roles, all psions (except mind seeds) begin at first-level. When they just come into their powers, they'll gravitate to certain fields. As they become more powerful, those institutions will still shape their behavior and goals.
Roxlimn 08-08-07, 11:22 AM	A Magocracy isn't about teaching people magic. It's about controlling magic in order to rule. I can envision Psions doing the same thing. If you're a Psion, the person whose power you respect the most is another Psion. Therefore, it stands to reason that if a Psion comes into power, he could try to bring other psions under his authority in order to solidify his hold on power.
InkBlot 08-08-07, 12:10 PM	Like in Reidra.
Vengeful_Deity 08-09-07, 03:19 PM	I'm playing in an Eberron campaign at the momment, and we had reason to go to Sarlona which opened up some interesting ideas on how Psions organized themselves. They would likely give into a "hive mind" sort of deal, where the smartest, the most charistmatic, and the wisest make all of the decisions from the safty of some sort of fortress or tower, all thoughts being shared freely with perpetual Mind Probe and other Telepathy powers. If you're in a city controled and inhabitted by Psions, you'll be sure to know that if someone catches you stealing from their store, citizens and prefects will already be on their way to stop you as soon as the person who witnessed your act realized what was going on. Likely the leaders would be Thrall Herd types, where their sheer force of will attracts and controls others.
elondir 08-09-07, 04:28 PM	Ah yes, the thought police are here. You were planning something, yes? No need to deny it, now. Come along with us. :D
Roxlimn 08-10-07, 09:10 AM	If they really had a "hive mind" mentality, then the wisest person would almost always defer to less wise people who are more experienced in the particular situation. The weird effect of Psionics is that if everyone can convene and discuss at any time, then facts and specialties will matter and they're thus more apt to rule by situational leaders and committee than they are by individual puissance alone. "We're planning an invasion. Okay, War Mind, you're up. What should I do as 'Leader?'"
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-10-07, 09:38 AM	If they really had a "hive mind" mentality, then the wisest person would almost always defer to less wise people who are more experienced in the particular situation. The weird effect of Psionics is that if everyone can convene and discuss at any time, then facts and specialties will matter and they're thus more apt to rule by situational leaders and committee than they are by individual puissance alone. "We're planning an invasion. Okay, War Mind, you're up. What should I do as 'Leader?'" Well, it depends on whether they're a Lawful Good or Lawful Evil (or even Lawful Neutral) society. It could go either way.
Sarlax 08-10-07, 09:49 AM	What kind of power distribution do you see in the society? Most psions are going to be low-level characters. High level types will be comparatively rare. It'll be somewhat difficult even for high-level telepaths to rule simply through their psionic might. Unlike wizards, psions have little benefit in organizing themselves. Wizards need to cooperate to be effective, specifically in trading spell knowledge. Psions, however, can't just swap power knowledge, so they don't benefit from grouping. They might make psionic items for each other, but they don't need many items to be effective. They also don't benefit from controlling other psions. Wizards might love to have lots of little wizards under them who are researching new spells on a regular basis, but psions can't do that. They can rule if they like, but they'll expend a lot of energy in doing so.
Roxlimn 08-10-07, 09:56 AM	Psions benefit from ruling other psions the same way Swordsmen rule by controlling legions of Archers. Archers can't help the Swordsman become a better Swordsman, but they can help kill his enemies and cow the population into submission.
Sarlax 08-10-07, 10:53 AM	Psions benefit from ruling other psions the same way Swordsmen rule by controlling legions of Archers. Archers can't help the Swordsman become a better Swordsman, but they can help kill his enemies and cow the population into submission. Fair enough, but that isn't a natural outcome of being a swordsman. How will psions naturally organize? They can become tyrants or all join into an all-encompassing psychic guild, but what actually best fits their abilities?
Bacris 08-10-07, 11:01 AM	It's all situational. You can have the psiocracy of Jhaamdath or a tyrannical telepath using psionics to warp the minds of those in power. Intelligence and Wisdom doesn't automatically equate to humanitarian of the year, after all :) And Sarlax, you're forgetting the ability to manifest another's powers known - psions have great benefit in collaborating.
Roxlimn 08-10-07, 11:26 AM	Sarlax: Fair enough, but that isn't a natural outcome of being a swordsman. Arguably, it's the natural outcome of having a lot of self-interested Swordsmen and Archers in the same place. No specific Swordsman is going to want to carve out a kingdom for himself, but if he did, he'd look to subdue or kill every other Swordsman he knows of, since they're the kind of martial power he respects the most, being a Swordsman himself. How will psions naturally organize? They can become tyrants or all join into an all-encompassing psychic guild, but what actually best fits their abilities? Nothing is "best fit." It's just as good as you imagine it to be. Aside from the "Powers Known" collaboration thing, Kineticists enjoy collaborating with Nomads because having Nomad friends and allies gives them the use of powers they can't normally easily acquire. Just as a Swordsman benefits from controlling lots of Archers because they can kill his enemies from a distance - something he can't normally do himself.
Sarlax 08-10-07, 12:04 PM	And Sarlax, you're forgetting the ability to manifest another's powers known - psions have great benefit in collaborating. Ah, good point. The effect of this is, however, minor. It allows more power points to be spent on powers and little else. IE, a psion without Divination can use it by way of another psion, but that's no different that the first psion having manifested it. What it does suggest is that psions might maintain a network of contacts so they have access to personal use powers they don't know themselves that aren't practical to have someone manifest on your behalf (like Metamorphosis or Body Adjustment). It doesn't suggest any natural government arrangement, I think. A psi-tyrant might like to have a few psions around to give him access to those kinds of powers, but you don't need to control very many to get what you need.