How helpful is Psionic Charge? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How helpful is Psionic Charge? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Incendius
10-02-07, 03:08 PM I've been wondering about the usability of Psionic Charge, and whether it was worth taking or not.

Right now my decision is between Psionic Charge, Deep Impact, and Improved Trip basically (I am also taking Shocktrooper, and possibly going into Elusive target if Psionic Charge is dropped).

I have been told that the campaign will take place in a mixture of short and large spaces within dungeon esque suroundings, but I haven't really had experience with how good Psionic Charge is in letting my get a charge off.

Right now with my current build I will be able to Leap Attack+Shocktrooper+Psionic Lion's Charge if I can get it off, potentially doing a lot of damage, but I'm not sure if the increased chance of getting a Charge off from Psionic charge is worth the loss in versatility.

What is your all's opinions?
Sjiggie
10-02-07, 04:06 PM I'm not a fan of the Psionic Charge feat because you have to expend your focus to use it wich means you can't use it on deep impact to hit the touch AC. If I were you I would pick up Deep Impact and throw everything in power attack combined with deep impact to still hit the creature you're fighting.
InkBlot
10-02-07, 05:41 PM If you're using Shock Trooper than you have access to Complete Warrior, right? Look at Fleet Of Foot. It works exactly like Psionic Charge, but requires Run instead of Speed Of Thought and doesn't use psionic focus.

There's a few maneuvers, from Tome Of Battle: The Book Of Nine Swords, that lets you change direction during a charge. I can't recall the names of them, but I'm pretty sure they're low enough level that an 8th level character could pick them up with a single level of Swordsage, Warblade, or Crusader. You could also use the feat Martial Study to nab one without multiclassing, but then you could only use it once per encounter (no recovery method).
Incendius
10-02-07, 06:35 PM Fleet of Foot works slightly differently than Psionic charge; you need to still make a 10 foot movement after it. I'm not sure how useful the dipping into the ToB classes would be at the moment; right now I'm looking at 4-5 attacks per round (Playing a Monstrous race and bite of the wolf), and ToB is all about standard action attacks.

Mostly I was thinking Psionic charge could be used so that my character could, while standing next to his opponent (or 5-15 feet away with large size and expansion) he could move left five feet, then up once, and attack as if on a charge.

The only reason I question the viability of this is because I don't know exactly how restricted its going to be in the campaign, and I don't know if being able to trip people (Since I'll always be the largest size possible due to expansion+large size base) really well and attack, or having a touch attack once per encounter is better (which basically is what deep impact is for me at the moment.)
InkBlot
10-02-07, 06:58 PM I'm not sure that would work. When you charge you have to go to and attack from the closest possible space. If you're already in the closest possible space then it should be no go.

I'm not sure how useful the dipping into the ToB classes would be at the moment; right now I'm looking at 4-5 attacks per round (Playing a Monstrous race and bite of the wolf), and ToB is all about standard action attacks.
Strikes are only 1/4 of the ToB. There's also boosts, counters, and stances, none of which use more than a swift action. Don't discount their usefulness.

Not to mention that several strikes allow you to take a full attack as part of them.
CrimsonDeath
10-02-07, 08:47 PM Not to mention that several strikes allow you to take a full attack as part of them.

Or charges.
Incendius
10-02-07, 10:28 PM I'm slightly starved for feats and power points in my build already; I'd love to pick up some ToB stuff, but I doubt I could get the useful things with any good allocation of resources at the moment.

So I took Psionic Charge out at the moment, I guess it wouldn't be too useful, especially since I have reach to make charge work a lot better.

Right now I'm debating on Deep Impact verse Improved Trip; Improved Trip + The Shocktrooper trip effect against two enemies might be really nice. Anywho, thanks for your opinions all!
chicgeek
10-03-07, 06:16 PM You might also enjoy Up the Walls when charging. My DM was very fond of putting us in very narrow corridors (and I played a Half-Giant who relied heavily on Expansion) which made it incredibly difficult to set up a charge. Psionic Charge, Powerful Charge, Up the Walls, Leap Attack and Lion's Charge let me navigate the walls as floor space.
InkBlot
10-03-07, 06:28 PM But if you expend your focus to use Psionic Charge while you're on a wall then you'll drop, ruining the charge.
Incendius
10-03-07, 06:29 PM I'm not too troubled my wall space at the moment, the character I'm working in on has a fly speed, average at the moment and eventually good (Gestalt Savage Progression.)

I think I've abandoned all of the above in favor of a different tactic though, one with a bit more versatility and battle field control, though a bit less damage overall.

My character is a large race, and I was reading through Races of Stone looking for that Armor AC to Touch AC line of feats, but then I found a really beauty: Knockback.

Its pretty much garaunteed that at any point in which there is a monster that is larger then large; I'll be larger then large too. Due to the way power attack works + Knockback generates a huge amount of +bull rush I should be able to get one off pretty easily. With Shocktrooper + Combat Brute I can even use those bull rushes in a charge and due incredible damage and battlefield control with Psionic Lion's Charge. Next level I'll even get Leap attack, where my damage will shoot up a whole ton (Though I'm debating between starting with Combat Brute and Leap attack at the moment.) as will my Bull Rush attempts.

With charge and a really large tumble modifier, enough to auto hit everything but full speed avoid movement aoe, I can almost jump into a group of enemies and push them all apart into various corners of the room. With the Shocktrooper and Bull Rush options, I can even throw them into each other and trip them, as well as getting a good +hit/damage the next round with Combat Brute.

I'm thinking this evens out to be as good as, if not better then my previous Deep Impact charging build.

Thanks all for your opinions so far, its been a real help in deciding where to go with my character.
InkBlot
10-03-07, 06:32 PM Have you seen the Dungeon Crasher Fighter variant in Dungeonscape? A Dungeon Crasher can generate obscene damage by knocking foes into walls.
Incendius
10-03-07, 06:48 PM I have; but I felt it was a bit too much, and the I didn't like the loss of versatility (undead heavy campaign and I'm picking up several of the good Undead powers, as well as just some general good powers on the side anyway.)

With Dungeon Crasher I could have been doing something like 42d6+18*strength modifier per round without power attack and misc boni assuming all my attacks hit. That seems a little bit much right?

(I just did the math, thats at 8th level without counting magic weapons or power attack, 273 average damage. Yeah... We're supposed to be powerful, I'm just not sure we're supposed to be THAT powerful.

With a full power attack and leap attack I would be doing another 80 damage, for 353 average damage per round if all my attacks hit, and with Shocktrooper I would not be taking any hits to my attack roll.)
ff6shadow
10-03-07, 07:41 PM In Complete Scounrdrel, there is a skill trick, Twisted Charge. Requires 5 ranks in Balance and Jump, and 2 other skill points. Lets you make one 90 turn during a charge. Very low on resource consumption.
Millenia
10-03-07, 07:41 PM You should not take Psionic Charge; instead, invest some skill points into Balance and some other skill, and take that one skill trick (from Complete Scoundrel) that lets you do the same thing (though only once per encounter). If you don't have the book, then... *Shrug*

Edit: Accursed Shadow! Beat me to the punch! DX
Incendius
10-03-07, 08:02 PM Wow that is amazing! Thank you guys for pointing that out, two skill points for what amounts to the work of two feats, now THAT is a deal.
chicgeek
10-04-07, 02:13 PM But if you expend your focus to use Psionic Charge while you're on a wall then you'll drop, ruining the charge.

Gaaah! Whups. I (nor my DM) never caught that. I did a lot less falling than I should have.
SlanderPanic
10-04-07, 03:31 PM 10 Balance (cross-class for psychic warriors)
+5 Jump
+2 Twisted Charge
= 17 skill points

Sounds fairly expensive to me.
CrimsonDeath
10-04-07, 04:09 PM 10 Balance (cross-class for psychic warriors)
+5 Jump
+2 Twisted Charge
= 17 skill points

Sounds fairly expensive to me.

Good point. Some PsyWars get almost as many feats as skill points.
AntiDjinn
10-04-07, 04:11 PM At 17 total skill points, going that route costs the PsW the equivalent of 3.4 feats (1 feat without prereqs = 5 skill points, the exchange rate on Open Minded, a feat without prereqs). A PsW would need at least 7 levels (Balance is cross-class, no matter how he pays for the skill ranks), would probably need Open Minded at least twice (paying the rest of the skill points himself). Or he could take Cosmopolitan at first level to make Balance a class skill. Any way you look at it, it is going to be more character resources than it is worth.

Do you seriously find yourself in a situation of: I absolutely have to charge (no other way to win this fight) but there are just too many trees (or other inconvenient environment features) in the way! with any great frequency? Only spend feats to fix problems that crop up often enough to be worth it.
Incendius
10-04-07, 05:29 PM I'm sorry I should have been more clear; the other half of my gestalt is an outsider, and I have 16 int, for all but two levels I gain 11 skill points per level of pretty much any skill I want.

For a normal Psywar, yeah thats not at all free, for me? Very easy to achieve.
SlanderPanic
10-05-07, 11:13 AM Your game sounds munchkintastic. Have fun stomping all over the cosmos!
Incendius
10-05-07, 08:39 PM Your game sounds munchkintastic. Have fun stomping all over the cosmos!

Well its Gestalt....

I mean; I melee better then a regular Fighter by a bit, but not supremely so, and spellcasters will still curbstomp me (as well as undead with energy drain and such, which I don't doubt we'll be facing a lot of.).

Now playing a Gestalt Ethergaunt, then I'd agree with you.
AntiDjinn
10-05-07, 09:39 PM You are doing gestalt and you chose psychic warrior? Generally, people mix a full BAB, good hit point class with a full caster/manifester class to get the best of both worlds. Either that or monk, for good saves all around and a set of defensive special abilities + any class that can actually get things done.

For example, if not having a straight line to charge is a problem that you see happening all the time in this game: Monk/egoist or Monk/nomad using Dimension Door and Sun School (tactical feat, CW, see the Flash of Sunset option) should get the job done. At higher levels add Freezing the Lifeblood from the same book.
SlanderPanic
10-08-07, 09:50 AM Fighter/psychic warrior might be fun, if only for the absolutely insane amount of bonus feats. When you qualify for war mind, war mind/psychic warrior would be fun for continuing a progression.

Still, it's hard to beat outsider hit dice: full BAB, martial weapon proficiency, all good saves, 8+Int skill points, darkvision... And that's not even going into whatever other racial traits he might be getting.
CrimsonDeath
10-08-07, 01:23 PM Fighter/psychic warrior might be fun, if only for the absolutely insane amount of bonus feats. When you qualify for war mind, war mind/psychic warrior would be fun for continuing a progression.
There aren't enough good feats to support more than a couple of optimized 20-level Fighter builds, much less Fighter/PsyWar gestalt (although the oppportunity to take Psionic feats with your PsyWar and normal feats may mitigate that). A few levels of Fighter might not be bad, especially if you take an alternate class feature like Dungeoncrasher, but you'll probably want to take a prestiege class on that side before too long.

War Mind does not advance Psychic Warrior progression. It has its own independent progression. Putting War Mind across from PsyWar, however, looks like it might be fun, assuming the additional power points per day stack rather than overlap. (By the RAW of gestalt, they'd overlap, since it's the same class feature-- "having a PP reserve"-- with different values...)
ff6shadow
10-08-07, 01:49 PM Actually it be more like spell slots. He could only spend Psychic Warrior PP on Psychich Warrior powers and Warmiknd PP on Warmind powers. Powers he wants to use often should probably be taken for both clases.
SlanderPanic
10-08-07, 02:03 PM I'd treat it like multiclassing, say, psion and psychic warrior. The points pool up together, but each manifesting class has separate powers and manifester level. Yes, you could end up with a ridiculously large number of power points, but gestalt is all about being ridiculously powerful anyway.

Imagine a straight-up psion/wilder gestalt. He'd be just about the ultimate blaster.
CrimsonDeath
10-08-07, 02:08 PM Actually it be more like spell slots. He could only spend Psychic Warrior PP on Psychich Warrior powers and Warmiknd PP on Warmind powers. Powers he wants to use often should probably be taken for both clases.

Power Points don't work like that.
InkBlot
10-08-07, 02:25 PM Imagine a straight-up psion/wilder gestalt. He'd be just about the ultimate blaster.

I once ran a gestalt game where someone played that. He was just about the ultimate blaster. He had a ludicrous number of power points.
AntiDjinn
10-08-07, 02:33 PM When you mix manifesting classes, you have a single pool of points that you can spend as you like. You do have to keep track of which class you used to learn each power if your manifester levels for each class differ (academic if they don't) and if you have a different manifesting stat mod for each class (e.g.: Psion/Wilder uses Int for the DC of powers he knows as a psion, Int also determines the highest level of powers he can learn as a psion. Cha applies the same to his wilder powers).

If you two manifesting classes give you the same manifester level and use the same stat to manifest, then while they are technically separate, it won't matter because you will use the same numbers and limits to process each.
CrimsonDeath
10-08-07, 03:30 PM If you two manifesting classes give you the same manifester level and use the same stat to manifest, then while they are technically separate, it won't matter because you will use the same numbers and limits to process each.

PsyWar//Ardent? (Man, that one sounds like fun...)
AntiDjinn
10-08-07, 04:23 PM I only mentioned that because gestalt lets you progress in two (or more) classes simultaneously so the ML's should be equal. If you are actually multiclassing, the gimp factor of having your two classes equal (you only do it to avoid an XP penalty) outweighs the convenience of not having to keep track of the numbers. Most base class multiclassers want to pick a class that provides the bulk of their role in the party, then add a splash of another to provide options and synergy.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Incendius 10-02-07, 03:08 PM	I've been wondering about the usability of Psionic Charge, and whether it was worth taking or not. Right now my decision is between Psionic Charge, Deep Impact, and Improved Trip basically (I am also taking Shocktrooper, and possibly going into Elusive target if Psionic Charge is dropped). I have been told that the campaign will take place in a mixture of short and large spaces within dungeon esque suroundings, but I haven't really had experience with how good Psionic Charge is in letting my get a charge off. Right now with my current build I will be able to Leap Attack+Shocktrooper+Psionic Lion's Charge if I can get it off, potentially doing a lot of damage, but I'm not sure if the increased chance of getting a Charge off from Psionic charge is worth the loss in versatility. What is your all's opinions?
Sjiggie 10-02-07, 04:06 PM	I'm not a fan of the Psionic Charge feat because you have to expend your focus to use it wich means you can't use it on deep impact to hit the touch AC. If I were you I would pick up Deep Impact and throw everything in power attack combined with deep impact to still hit the creature you're fighting.
InkBlot 10-02-07, 05:41 PM	If you're using Shock Trooper than you have access to Complete Warrior, right? Look at Fleet Of Foot. It works exactly like Psionic Charge, but requires Run instead of Speed Of Thought and doesn't use psionic focus. There's a few maneuvers, from Tome Of Battle: The Book Of Nine Swords, that lets you change direction during a charge. I can't recall the names of them, but I'm pretty sure they're low enough level that an 8th level character could pick them up with a single level of Swordsage, Warblade, or Crusader. You could also use the feat Martial Study to nab one without multiclassing, but then you could only use it once per encounter (no recovery method).
Incendius 10-02-07, 06:35 PM	Fleet of Foot works slightly differently than Psionic charge; you need to still make a 10 foot movement after it. I'm not sure how useful the dipping into the ToB classes would be at the moment; right now I'm looking at 4-5 attacks per round (Playing a Monstrous race and bite of the wolf), and ToB is all about standard action attacks. Mostly I was thinking Psionic charge could be used so that my character could, while standing next to his opponent (or 5-15 feet away with large size and expansion) he could move left five feet, then up once, and attack as if on a charge. The only reason I question the viability of this is because I don't know exactly how restricted its going to be in the campaign, and I don't know if being able to trip people (Since I'll always be the largest size possible due to expansion+large size base) really well and attack, or having a touch attack once per encounter is better (which basically is what deep impact is for me at the moment.)
InkBlot 10-02-07, 06:58 PM	I'm not sure that would work. When you charge you have to go to and attack from the closest possible space. If you're already in the closest possible space then it should be no go. I'm not sure how useful the dipping into the ToB classes would be at the moment; right now I'm looking at 4-5 attacks per round (Playing a Monstrous race and bite of the wolf), and ToB is all about standard action attacks. Strikes are only 1/4 of the ToB. There's also boosts, counters, and stances, none of which use more than a swift action. Don't discount their usefulness. Not to mention that several strikes allow you to take a full attack as part of them.
CrimsonDeath 10-02-07, 08:47 PM	Not to mention that several strikes allow you to take a full attack as part of them. Or charges.
Incendius 10-02-07, 10:28 PM	I'm slightly starved for feats and power points in my build already; I'd love to pick up some ToB stuff, but I doubt I could get the useful things with any good allocation of resources at the moment. So I took Psionic Charge out at the moment, I guess it wouldn't be too useful, especially since I have reach to make charge work a lot better. Right now I'm debating on Deep Impact verse Improved Trip; Improved Trip + The Shocktrooper trip effect against two enemies might be really nice. Anywho, thanks for your opinions all!
chicgeek 10-03-07, 06:16 PM	You might also enjoy Up the Walls when charging. My DM was very fond of putting us in very narrow corridors (and I played a Half-Giant who relied heavily on Expansion) which made it incredibly difficult to set up a charge. Psionic Charge, Powerful Charge, Up the Walls, Leap Attack and Lion's Charge let me navigate the walls as floor space.
InkBlot 10-03-07, 06:28 PM	But if you expend your focus to use Psionic Charge while you're on a wall then you'll drop, ruining the charge.
Incendius 10-03-07, 06:29 PM	I'm not too troubled my wall space at the moment, the character I'm working in on has a fly speed, average at the moment and eventually good (Gestalt Savage Progression.) I think I've abandoned all of the above in favor of a different tactic though, one with a bit more versatility and battle field control, though a bit less damage overall. My character is a large race, and I was reading through Races of Stone looking for that Armor AC to Touch AC line of feats, but then I found a really beauty: Knockback. Its pretty much garaunteed that at any point in which there is a monster that is larger then large; I'll be larger then large too. Due to the way power attack works + Knockback generates a huge amount of +bull rush I should be able to get one off pretty easily. With Shocktrooper + Combat Brute I can even use those bull rushes in a charge and due incredible damage and battlefield control with Psionic Lion's Charge. Next level I'll even get Leap attack, where my damage will shoot up a whole ton (Though I'm debating between starting with Combat Brute and Leap attack at the moment.) as will my Bull Rush attempts. With charge and a really large tumble modifier, enough to auto hit everything but full speed avoid movement aoe, I can almost jump into a group of enemies and push them all apart into various corners of the room. With the Shocktrooper and Bull Rush options, I can even throw them into each other and trip them, as well as getting a good +hit/damage the next round with Combat Brute. I'm thinking this evens out to be as good as, if not better then my previous Deep Impact charging build. Thanks all for your opinions so far, its been a real help in deciding where to go with my character.
InkBlot 10-03-07, 06:32 PM	Have you seen the Dungeon Crasher Fighter variant in Dungeonscape? A Dungeon Crasher can generate obscene damage by knocking foes into walls.
Incendius 10-03-07, 06:48 PM	I have; but I felt it was a bit too much, and the I didn't like the loss of versatility (undead heavy campaign and I'm picking up several of the good Undead powers, as well as just some general good powers on the side anyway.) With Dungeon Crasher I could have been doing something like 42d6+18*strength modifier per round without power attack and misc boni assuming all my attacks hit. That seems a little bit much right? (I just did the math, thats at 8th level without counting magic weapons or power attack, 273 average damage. Yeah... We're supposed to be powerful, I'm just not sure we're supposed to be THAT powerful. With a full power attack and leap attack I would be doing another 80 damage, for 353 average damage per round if all my attacks hit, and with Shocktrooper I would not be taking any hits to my attack roll.)
ff6shadow 10-03-07, 07:41 PM	In Complete Scounrdrel, there is a skill trick, Twisted Charge. Requires 5 ranks in Balance and Jump, and 2 other skill points. Lets you make one 90 turn during a charge. Very low on resource consumption.
Millenia 10-03-07, 07:41 PM	You should not take Psionic Charge; instead, invest some skill points into Balance and some other skill, and take that one skill trick (from Complete Scoundrel) that lets you do the same thing (though only once per encounter). If you don't have the book, then... Shrug Edit: Accursed Shadow! Beat me to the punch! DX
Incendius 10-03-07, 08:02 PM	Wow that is amazing! Thank you guys for pointing that out, two skill points for what amounts to the work of two feats, now THAT is a deal.
chicgeek 10-04-07, 02:13 PM	But if you expend your focus to use Psionic Charge while you're on a wall then you'll drop, ruining the charge. Gaaah! Whups. I (nor my DM) never caught that. I did a lot less falling than I should have.
SlanderPanic 10-04-07, 03:31 PM	10 Balance (cross-class for psychic warriors) +5 Jump +2 Twisted Charge = 17 skill points Sounds fairly expensive to me.
CrimsonDeath 10-04-07, 04:09 PM	10 Balance (cross-class for psychic warriors) +5 Jump +2 Twisted Charge = 17 skill points Sounds fairly expensive to me. Good point. Some PsyWars get almost as many feats as skill points.
AntiDjinn 10-04-07, 04:11 PM	At 17 total skill points, going that route costs the PsW the equivalent of 3.4 feats (1 feat without prereqs = 5 skill points, the exchange rate on Open Minded, a feat without prereqs). A PsW would need at least 7 levels (Balance is cross-class, no matter how he pays for the skill ranks), would probably need Open Minded at least twice (paying the rest of the skill points himself). Or he could take Cosmopolitan at first level to make Balance a class skill. Any way you look at it, it is going to be more character resources than it is worth. Do you seriously find yourself in a situation of: I absolutely have to charge (no other way to win this fight) but there are just too many trees (or other inconvenient environment features) in the way! with any great frequency? Only spend feats to fix problems that crop up often enough to be worth it.
Incendius 10-04-07, 05:29 PM	I'm sorry I should have been more clear; the other half of my gestalt is an outsider, and I have 16 int, for all but two levels I gain 11 skill points per level of pretty much any skill I want. For a normal Psywar, yeah thats not at all free, for me? Very easy to achieve.
SlanderPanic 10-05-07, 11:13 AM	Your game sounds munchkintastic. Have fun stomping all over the cosmos!
Incendius 10-05-07, 08:39 PM	Your game sounds munchkintastic. Have fun stomping all over the cosmos! Well its Gestalt.... I mean; I melee better then a regular Fighter by a bit, but not supremely so, and spellcasters will still curbstomp me (as well as undead with energy drain and such, which I don't doubt we'll be facing a lot of.). Now playing a Gestalt Ethergaunt, then I'd agree with you.
AntiDjinn 10-05-07, 09:39 PM	You are doing gestalt and you chose psychic warrior? Generally, people mix a full BAB, good hit point class with a full caster/manifester class to get the best of both worlds. Either that or monk, for good saves all around and a set of defensive special abilities + any class that can actually get things done. For example, if not having a straight line to charge is a problem that you see happening all the time in this game: Monk/egoist or Monk/nomad using Dimension Door and Sun School (tactical feat, CW, see the Flash of Sunset option) should get the job done. At higher levels add Freezing the Lifeblood from the same book.
SlanderPanic 10-08-07, 09:50 AM	Fighter/psychic warrior might be fun, if only for the absolutely insane amount of bonus feats. When you qualify for war mind, war mind/psychic warrior would be fun for continuing a progression. Still, it's hard to beat outsider hit dice: full BAB, martial weapon proficiency, all good saves, 8+Int skill points, darkvision... And that's not even going into whatever other racial traits he might be getting.
CrimsonDeath 10-08-07, 01:23 PM	Fighter/psychic warrior might be fun, if only for the absolutely insane amount of bonus feats. When you qualify for war mind, war mind/psychic warrior would be fun for continuing a progression. There aren't enough good feats to support more than a couple of optimized 20-level Fighter builds, much less Fighter/PsyWar gestalt (although the oppportunity to take Psionic feats with your PsyWar and normal feats may mitigate that). A few levels of Fighter might not be bad, especially if you take an alternate class feature like Dungeoncrasher, but you'll probably want to take a prestiege class on that side before too long. War Mind does not advance Psychic Warrior progression. It has its own independent progression. Putting War Mind across from PsyWar, however, looks like it might be fun, assuming the additional power points per day stack rather than overlap. (By the RAW of gestalt, they'd overlap, since it's the same class feature-- "having a PP reserve"-- with different values...)
ff6shadow 10-08-07, 01:49 PM	Actually it be more like spell slots. He could only spend Psychic Warrior PP on Psychich Warrior powers and Warmiknd PP on Warmind powers. Powers he wants to use often should probably be taken for both clases.
SlanderPanic 10-08-07, 02:03 PM	I'd treat it like multiclassing, say, psion and psychic warrior. The points pool up together, but each manifesting class has separate powers and manifester level. Yes, you could end up with a ridiculously large number of power points, but gestalt is all about being ridiculously powerful anyway. Imagine a straight-up psion/wilder gestalt. He'd be just about the ultimate blaster.
CrimsonDeath 10-08-07, 02:08 PM	Actually it be more like spell slots. He could only spend Psychic Warrior PP on Psychich Warrior powers and Warmiknd PP on Warmind powers. Powers he wants to use often should probably be taken for both clases. Power Points don't work like that.
InkBlot 10-08-07, 02:25 PM	Imagine a straight-up psion/wilder gestalt. He'd be just about the ultimate blaster. I once ran a gestalt game where someone played that. He was just about the ultimate blaster. He had a ludicrous number of power points.
AntiDjinn 10-08-07, 02:33 PM	When you mix manifesting classes, you have a single pool of points that you can spend as you like. You do have to keep track of which class you used to learn each power if your manifester levels for each class differ (academic if they don't) and if you have a different manifesting stat mod for each class (e.g.: Psion/Wilder uses Int for the DC of powers he knows as a psion, Int also determines the highest level of powers he can learn as a psion. Cha applies the same to his wilder powers). If you two manifesting classes give you the same manifester level and use the same stat to manifest, then while they are technically separate, it won't matter because you will use the same numbers and limits to process each.
CrimsonDeath 10-08-07, 03:30 PM	If you two manifesting classes give you the same manifester level and use the same stat to manifest, then while they are technically separate, it won't matter because you will use the same numbers and limits to process each. PsyWar//Ardent? (Man, that one sounds like fun...)
AntiDjinn 10-08-07, 04:23 PM	I only mentioned that because gestalt lets you progress in two (or more) classes simultaneously so the ML's should be equal. If you are actually multiclassing, the gimp factor of having your two classes equal (you only do it to avoid an XP penalty) outweighs the convenience of not having to keep track of the numbers. Most base class multiclassers want to pick a class that provides the bulk of their role in the party, then add a splash of another to provide options and synergy.