how much damage does this do? [Archive] - Wizards Community

how much damage does this do? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Adamaro23
05-12-07, 07:35 PM i'm dming a campaign and i have a psion in the group.
they're all lvl. 3.

my non-psions do an average: 8-16 damage
my one psion, if he spends all power-points does 96 at most :(

he took the feats: Twin Power, and Split ray.
from what he's saying he does 16 d6 (max 96 damage)

I love psionics but this seems broken...he overpowers evryone.

i'm in the middle of a session now, please give me some answers soon....PLEASE? :weep: :weep: :weep: :weep:
Adamaro23
05-12-07, 07:41 PM please hurrry :weep:
Nifft
05-12-07, 07:44 PM He's 3rd level -> he can spend 3 power points on any one power. Total.

Psionics is broken if you don't follow the rules. :)

Read the FAQ (sticky at the top of this forum), and read how powers work here (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicPowersOverview.htm).

(The specific part about how many power points you can spend is here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifesterLeve l).)

Cheers, -- N
glacialcat
05-12-07, 07:45 PM He can't do this. At all. THE most important rule in the XPH is you can't spend more than your manifestor level on one power.

Twin Power increases the PP cost by 6. Split Ray by 2. This means he has to be at least 9th level to do this, and can only do this with a 1 PP energy ray, doing 1d6 damage 8 times.. so it would be 8d6.. less than he would do just by using 9 PP on it.

PLUS they both take psionic focus to work, which means he has to give up two psionic foci to power them both. The ONLY way he can do this is to have a Psicrystal and Psicrystal Containment. Since he can have at most 4 feats at this level, and he has to be human for that, that would take up all 4 of his feats just to have access to these four feats. If he's not a human, he doesn't even have enough feats for this.

Not a single thing about what he's doing is within the rules.
Batshido
05-12-07, 07:47 PM Psionics rule number 1: You can't spend more power points on one manifestation of a power than you have manifester levels.

In this case, 3. He can't go over that. EVER. This includes any meta-psionic feats he has.

Basically; Power cost + Meta-Psionic Feat cost be equal or less than 3. That's not possible, since both those feats cost at least an extra 2 power points apiece.

Oh, and he can only expend one focus unless he has the feat that gives his psi-crystal one.

That's how he's breaking it. Stop him.

Edit: Beat'd by glacialcat. d'oh
Adamaro23
05-12-07, 07:48 PM he refuses to believe this, he says he's only spending three, then uses the feat's abilities
Artector
05-12-07, 07:51 PM Then'd I'd suggest telling him he wins. Tell him he wins DND.

Then go tell him to go play some WOW.

If he won't follow the rules of the game then there's no need for him to play at all, you'll be better off without him.
Nifft
05-12-07, 07:51 PM he refuses to believe this, he says he's only spending three, then uses the feat's abilities

He's wrong. Read the Psionics section of the SRD (linked above). Read the effects of the Psionics feats -- particularly the part about costing your Psionic Focus and extra power points.

Cheers, -- N
glacialcat
05-12-07, 07:52 PM Twin Power [Metapsionic]

You can manifest a power simultaneously with another power just like it.
Benefit

To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. You can twin a power. Manifesting a power altered by this feat causes the power to take effect twice on the area or target, as if you were simultaneously manifesting the same power two times on the same location or target. Any variables in the power (such as duration, number of targets, and so on) are the same for both of the resulting powers. The target experiences all the effects of both powers individually and receives a saving throw (if applicable) for each. In some cases, such as a twinned psionic charm, failing both saving throws results in redundant effects (although, in this example, any ally of the target would have to succeed on two dispel attempts to free the target from the charm effect).

Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 6. The power’s total cost cannot exceed your manifester level.

Total Cost would be equal to the cost required to manifest the power + 6 + 2 (from Split Ray)... that means to do this with a 3 PP energy ray, he'd have to have a manifestor level of 3 + 6 + 2. Does a Lv.3 psion have this high of a manifestor level? If he thinks he does.. ask him to go take a course in basic math.

Tell him he can either fire one ray which does 3d6 points of damage (+ or - depending on element), or two rays that do 1d6, but can be fired at multiple opponents. Thus the best damage he could do is 18 damage.. which also happens to be the max damage you listed your other players doing. And this will take about a fifth of his daily PP, so... actually pretty weak. Direct Damage is not the way to go.

If you think he's purposefully cheating, kick him out of the game. If you think this is a legitimate rules misunderstanding, let him rechoose his feats, maybe his powers, since they obviously didn't work the way he wanted. And don't allow psionic characters until at least one of the people in the group knows how they work... especially the player.
Batshido
05-12-07, 07:53 PM he refuses to believe this, he says he's only spending three, then uses the feat's abilities

He's full of crap.

Not to mention that he's probably worthless after the first battle of the day.

Give him something to blow his pp's on, then have something else eat him. Then tell him to use his newfound free time to re-read the XPH, specifically the section that says he's wrong.

Problem solved.
Salla
05-12-07, 07:55 PM he refuses to believe this, he says he's only spending three, then uses the feat's abilities

Yup. And those feats increase the cost of the power beyond his ability to manifest. He can spend no more than 3 psipoints on a manifestation, period, end of story, thank you and say Good Night, Gracie. Good Night, Gracie.

Tell him he's an idiot. It plainly states in the rules that what he's doing is illegal.
Fireclave
05-12-07, 07:58 PM He's wrong. Dead wrong. You can only spend a number of pp equal to your manifester level. This includes the extra pp for using the metapsionic feat. And as glacial cat shown above, he can't even use that feat yet. The soonest he could use it will be 7th level. Then, he can suck by twinning unaugmented 1st level powers.
Tempest Stormwind
05-12-07, 07:58 PM he refuses to believe this, he says he's only spending three, then uses the feat's abilities

He's spending 3 points, plus a boatload more from his feats. He's cheating.

Besides, how is he powering two metapsionic feats at level 3?

Let's assume he's using a Twin Split Energy Ray with 3pp on the energy ray itself. Let's break this down.

3 power points on Energy Ray for 3d6 damage, adjusted for energy type. (This is the best he can do at that level legitimately -- 6-21 for a fire or cold attack, which are the easiest to resist, 3-18 for electricity with a +2 bonus on the attack roll, or 0-15 for sonic which ignores hardness.)

+6 power points for Twin Power, which he must expend his psionic focus to use. (He's 6 points over his limit.)

+2 points for Split Ray, which he must expend his psionic focus to use. (He's now EIGHT points over his limit, plus he can't get more than one feat per expending focus.)

EVEN IF those feats worked at this level (instead of level ELEVEN, which he'd need to be to pull it off, and to do it he'd also need two other feats and could at best do it every three rounds without a third feat), he'd be dealing 3d6 damage each in two rays (6d6) twice (12d6) -- so not only is he cheating on how much he can spend, and how his psionic focus works, he's also cheating on his damage output.

Tell him he's a lying, stinking, filthy cheater, slug him in the face with the XPH, and tell him to at least read the rules before blatantly trying to break them.

In your case, see the FAQ at the top of the forum.
Racous121
05-13-07, 11:28 AM Ok the best damage you can have at level 3 will always be a psion. I will not disagree with this. But he would be using the level 1 power Mind Thrust. At level 3 this power is a will save or nothing and would be 3d10 damage. Now putting 2 additional power points into this power gives it a 2nd level power Save DC. I have played 5-6 psions now and that is the best damage per level in the game. The only hold up is it is all or nothing. I have had that one power resisted more then any other in the game. :eek: I know it is off the subject a little bit but everyone else has beaten up the subject. The only thing I can think of saying to that would help you is this. The additional power points are added to the manifistation before it is casted, not afterwards. Since what he is trying to do is manifest the power then add the feats to as a bonus. That is not how it works. It is a one time cost. All additions go into the PP of the power as it is manifested.

Racous
Tempest Stormwind
05-13-07, 01:07 PM Ok the best damage you can have at level 3 will always be a psion. I will not disagree with this. But he would be using the level 1 power Mind Thrust. At level 3 this power is a will save or nothing and would be 3d10 damage. Now putting 2 additional power points into this power gives it a 2nd level power Save DC. I have played 5-6 psions now and that is the best damage per level in the game. The only hold up is it is all or nothing. I have had that one power resisted more then any other in the game. :eek: I know it is off the subject a little bit but everyone else has beaten up the subject. The only thing I can think of saying to that would help you is this. The additional power points are added to the manifistation before it is casted, not afterwards. Since what he is trying to do is manifest the power then add the feats to as a bonus. That is not how it works. It is a one time cost. All additions go into the PP of the power as it is manifested.

RacousActually, it may have the highest potential, but it isn't the highest you can do.

Mind Thrust has Will Negates as its saving throw. Thus, it's all-or-nothing. Looking at the CR 3 critters in the monster manual, and not counting the sixteen* monsters who are flat-out immune to it, we find Will saves ranging from +0 to +7, with an average of +3.8, or about +4. Not an insignificant value.

Mind Thrust is also Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]. Undead, Constructs, Oozes, Plants and Vermin are all immune to that automatically, and several critters gain a bonus on their saves against it (elves, for instance, with their +2 to saves against enchantments -- enchantment and telepathy are equivalent).

Thus, it's 3d10 (average 16.5) with a DC of 12+INT versus an average Will save of +4. This assumes you'll always breach SR (Yes, some CR 3 monsters have SR -- derro, for instance, or the formian worker (with a whopping SR 18 at CR 3!)) and that you'll always be able to close within Close range (some of them fly), and that you'll always have line of effect (some of them burrow or have Earth Glide or Xorn Movement -- even the lowly +1 Will Earth Elemental can be hard to hit if it's in the ground). Assuming a 15 Intelligence to start (the highest score on the elite array), and that by level 3 you generally don't have a Headband of Intelligence yet, this means +4 Will versus your DC 14 -- he'll pass on a 10 or higher (11/20 probability of making the save = 45% chance of actually doing damage).

16.5 average damage 45% of the time, 0 damage 55% of the time = 7.425 average damage with Mind Thrust at level 3, at a cost of 30% of your daily resources (15 Int psion 3 = 10 power points).

Compare to the 10 average damage of a greatsword (2d6 with a 15 Strength used 2-handed), BEFORE Power Attack factors in, that the warrior-types can be swinging at no cost to their daily resources, and you'll see that it really isn't all that hot.

Or compare it to your other options -- a 3pp Fire Energy Ray can dish out 13.5 damage if it hits, and it's generally pretty easy to hit touch ACs (especially if you switch to the 10.5 average damage Electricity ray).

Or, for the REAL kicker, try Scorching Ray. 4d6 damage on a ranged touch attack averages 14 damage, almost double that of Mind Thrust, and fewer creatures are immune to it (in fact, I can only think of three -- the fire elemental, the magmin, and some types of mephit). The wizard can lay out two of these per day and still have all of his first-level spells available, with Shocking Grasp dealing as much as an electrical Energy Ray but at a third of the cost. The sorcerer can lay out FOUR Scorching Rays before dipping into his first-level slots.

And all of this assumes you aren't going to use something like Color Spray, Sleep, Grease or Web to end a battle for multiple opponents NOW. (Grease doesn't even require a typical save! How many people honestly pump Balance ranks?)

Mind Thrust LOOKS impressive, but it comes up short.

* Allip, large animated object, assassin vine, violet fungus, ghast, giant ant, giant praying mantis, giant wasp, monstrous scorpion, gelatinous cube, phantom fungus, shadow, skeleton, locust swarm, wight, zombie.
Salla
05-13-07, 01:08 PM Actually, it may have the highest potential, but it isn't the highest you can do.

Mind Thrust has Will Negates as its saving throw. Thus, it's all-or-nothing. Looking at the CR 3 critters in the monster manual, and not counting the sixteen* monsters who are flat-out immune to it, we find Will saves ranging from +0 to +7, with an average of +3.8, or about +4. Not an insignificant value.

Mind Thrust is also Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]. Undead, Constructs, Oozes, Plants and Vermin are all immune to that automatically, and several critters gain a bonus on their saves against it (elves, for instance, with their +2 to saves against enchantments -- enchantment and telepathy are equivalent).

Thus, it's 3d10 (average 16.5) with a DC of 12+INT versus an average Will save of +4. This assumes you'll always breach SR (Yes, some CR 3 monsters have SR -- derro, for instance, or the formian worker (with a whopping SR 18 at CR 3!)) and that you'll always be able to close within Close range (some of them fly), and that you'll always have line of effect (some of them burrow or have Earth Glide or Xorn Movement -- even the lowly +1 Will Earth Elemental can be hard to hit if it's in the ground). Assuming a 15 Intelligence to start (the highest score on the elite array), and that by level 3 you generally don't have a Headband of Intelligence yet, this means +4 Will versus your DC 14 -- he'll pass on a 10 or higher (11/20 probability of making the save = 45% chance of actually doing damage).

16.5 average damage 45% of the time, 0 damage 55% of the time = 7.425 average damage with Mind Thrust at level 3, at a cost of 30% of your daily resources (15 Int psion 3 = 10 power points).

Compare to the 10 average damage of a greatsword (2d6 with a 15 Strength used 2-handed), BEFORE Power Attack factors in, that the warrior-types can be swinging at no cost to their daily resources, and you'll see that it really isn't all that hot.

Or compare it to your other options -- a 3pp Fire Energy Ray can dish out 13.5 damage if it hits, and it's generally pretty easy to hit touch ACs (especially if you switch to the 10.5 average damage Electricity ray).

Or, for the REAL kicker, try Scorching Ray. 4d6 damage on a ranged touch attack averages 14 damage, almost double that of Mind Thrust, and fewer creatures are immune to it (in fact, I can only think of three -- the fire elemental, the magmin, and some types of mephit). The wizard can lay out two of these per day and still have all of his first-level spells available, with Shocking Grasp dealing as much as an electrical Energy Ray but at a third of the cost. The sorcerer can lay out FOUR Scorching Rays before dipping into his first-level slots.

Mind Thrust LOOKS impressive, but it comes up short.

* Allip, large animated object, assassin vine, violet fungus, ghast, giant ant, giant praying mantis, giant wasp, monstrous scorpion, gelatinous cube, phantom fungus, shadow, skeleton, locust swarm, wight, zombie.

Holy detailed analysis, Batman!

Dude ... you rule.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Adamaro23 05-12-07, 07:35 PM	i'm dming a campaign and i have a psion in the group. they're all lvl. 3. my non-psions do an average: 8-16 damage my one psion, if he spends all power-points does 96 at most :( he took the feats: Twin Power, and Split ray. from what he's saying he does 16 d6 (max 96 damage) I love psionics but this seems broken...he overpowers evryone. i'm in the middle of a session now, please give me some answers soon....PLEASE? :weep: :weep: :weep: :weep:
Adamaro23 05-12-07, 07:41 PM	please hurrry :weep:
Nifft 05-12-07, 07:44 PM	He's 3rd level -> he can spend 3 power points on any one power. Total. Psionics is broken if you don't follow the rules. :) Read the FAQ (sticky at the top of this forum), and read how powers work here (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicPowersOverview.htm). (The specific part about how many power points you can spend is here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifesterLeve l).) Cheers, -- N
glacialcat 05-12-07, 07:45 PM	He can't do this. At all. THE most important rule in the XPH is you can't spend more than your manifestor level on one power. Twin Power increases the PP cost by 6. Split Ray by 2. This means he has to be at least 9th level to do this, and can only do this with a 1 PP energy ray, doing 1d6 damage 8 times.. so it would be 8d6.. less than he would do just by using 9 PP on it. PLUS they both take psionic focus to work, which means he has to give up two psionic foci to power them both. The ONLY way he can do this is to have a Psicrystal and Psicrystal Containment. Since he can have at most 4 feats at this level, and he has to be human for that, that would take up all 4 of his feats just to have access to these four feats. If he's not a human, he doesn't even have enough feats for this. Not a single thing about what he's doing is within the rules.
Batshido 05-12-07, 07:47 PM	Psionics rule number 1: You can't spend more power points on one manifestation of a power than you have manifester levels. In this case, 3. He can't go over that. EVER. This includes any meta-psionic feats he has. Basically; Power cost + Meta-Psionic Feat cost be equal or less than 3. That's not possible, since both those feats cost at least an extra 2 power points apiece. Oh, and he can only expend one focus unless he has the feat that gives his psi-crystal one. That's how he's breaking it. Stop him. Edit: Beat'd by glacialcat. d'oh
Adamaro23 05-12-07, 07:48 PM	he refuses to believe this, he says he's only spending three, then uses the feat's abilities
Artector 05-12-07, 07:51 PM	Then'd I'd suggest telling him he wins. Tell him he wins DND. Then go tell him to go play some WOW. If he won't follow the rules of the game then there's no need for him to play at all, you'll be better off without him.
Nifft 05-12-07, 07:51 PM	he refuses to believe this, he says he's only spending three, then uses the feat's abilities He's wrong. Read the Psionics section of the SRD (linked above). Read the effects of the Psionics feats -- particularly the part about costing your Psionic Focus and extra power points. Cheers, -- N
glacialcat 05-12-07, 07:52 PM	Twin Power [Metapsionic] You can manifest a power simultaneously with another power just like it. Benefit To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. You can twin a power. Manifesting a power altered by this feat causes the power to take effect twice on the area or target, as if you were simultaneously manifesting the same power two times on the same location or target. Any variables in the power (such as duration, number of targets, and so on) are the same for both of the resulting powers. The target experiences all the effects of both powers individually and receives a saving throw (if applicable) for each. In some cases, such as a twinned psionic charm, failing both saving throws results in redundant effects (although, in this example, any ally of the target would have to succeed on two dispel attempts to free the target from the charm effect). Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 6. The power’s total cost cannot exceed your manifester level. Total Cost would be equal to the cost required to manifest the power + 6 + 2 (from Split Ray)... that means to do this with a 3 PP energy ray, he'd have to have a manifestor level of 3 + 6 + 2. Does a Lv.3 psion have this high of a manifestor level? If he thinks he does.. ask him to go take a course in basic math. Tell him he can either fire one ray which does 3d6 points of damage (+ or - depending on element), or two rays that do 1d6, but can be fired at multiple opponents. Thus the best damage he could do is 18 damage.. which also happens to be the max damage you listed your other players doing. And this will take about a fifth of his daily PP, so... actually pretty weak. Direct Damage is not the way to go. If you think he's purposefully cheating, kick him out of the game. If you think this is a legitimate rules misunderstanding, let him rechoose his feats, maybe his powers, since they obviously didn't work the way he wanted. And don't allow psionic characters until at least one of the people in the group knows how they work... especially the player.
Batshido 05-12-07, 07:53 PM	he refuses to believe this, he says he's only spending three, then uses the feat's abilities He's full of crap. Not to mention that he's probably worthless after the first battle of the day. Give him something to blow his pp's on, then have something else eat him. Then tell him to use his newfound free time to re-read the XPH, specifically the section that says he's wrong. Problem solved.
Salla 05-12-07, 07:55 PM	he refuses to believe this, he says he's only spending three, then uses the feat's abilities Yup. And those feats increase the cost of the power beyond his ability to manifest. He can spend no more than 3 psipoints on a manifestation, period, end of story, thank you and say Good Night, Gracie. Good Night, Gracie. Tell him he's an idiot. It plainly states in the rules that what he's doing is illegal.
Fireclave 05-12-07, 07:58 PM	He's wrong. Dead wrong. You can only spend a number of pp equal to your manifester level. This includes the extra pp for using the metapsionic feat. And as glacial cat shown above, he can't even use that feat yet. The soonest he could use it will be 7th level. Then, he can suck by twinning unaugmented 1st level powers.
Tempest Stormwind 05-12-07, 07:58 PM	he refuses to believe this, he says he's only spending three, then uses the feat's abilities He's spending 3 points, plus a boatload more from his feats. He's cheating. Besides, how is he powering two metapsionic feats at level 3? Let's assume he's using a Twin Split Energy Ray with 3pp on the energy ray itself. Let's break this down. 3 power points on Energy Ray for 3d6 damage, adjusted for energy type. (This is the best he can do at that level legitimately -- 6-21 for a fire or cold attack, which are the easiest to resist, 3-18 for electricity with a +2 bonus on the attack roll, or 0-15 for sonic which ignores hardness.) +6 power points for Twin Power, which he must expend his psionic focus to use. (He's 6 points over his limit.) +2 points for Split Ray, which he must expend his psionic focus to use. (He's now EIGHT points over his limit, plus he can't get more than one feat per expending focus.) EVEN IF those feats worked at this level (instead of level ELEVEN, which he'd need to be to pull it off, and to do it he'd also need two other feats and could at best do it every three rounds without a third feat), he'd be dealing 3d6 damage each in two rays (6d6) twice (12d6) -- so not only is he cheating on how much he can spend, and how his psionic focus works, he's also cheating on his damage output. Tell him he's a lying, stinking, filthy cheater, slug him in the face with the XPH, and tell him to at least read the rules before blatantly trying to break them. In your case, see the FAQ at the top of the forum.
Racous121 05-13-07, 11:28 AM	Ok the best damage you can have at level 3 will always be a psion. I will not disagree with this. But he would be using the level 1 power Mind Thrust. At level 3 this power is a will save or nothing and would be 3d10 damage. Now putting 2 additional power points into this power gives it a 2nd level power Save DC. I have played 5-6 psions now and that is the best damage per level in the game. The only hold up is it is all or nothing. I have had that one power resisted more then any other in the game. :eek: I know it is off the subject a little bit but everyone else has beaten up the subject. The only thing I can think of saying to that would help you is this. The additional power points are added to the manifistation before it is casted, not afterwards. Since what he is trying to do is manifest the power then add the feats to as a bonus. That is not how it works. It is a one time cost. All additions go into the PP of the power as it is manifested. Racous
Tempest Stormwind 05-13-07, 01:07 PM	Ok the best damage you can have at level 3 will always be a psion. I will not disagree with this. But he would be using the level 1 power Mind Thrust. At level 3 this power is a will save or nothing and would be 3d10 damage. Now putting 2 additional power points into this power gives it a 2nd level power Save DC. I have played 5-6 psions now and that is the best damage per level in the game. The only hold up is it is all or nothing. I have had that one power resisted more then any other in the game. :eek: I know it is off the subject a little bit but everyone else has beaten up the subject. The only thing I can think of saying to that would help you is this. The additional power points are added to the manifistation before it is casted, not afterwards. Since what he is trying to do is manifest the power then add the feats to as a bonus. That is not how it works. It is a one time cost. All additions go into the PP of the power as it is manifested. RacousActually, it may have the highest potential, but it isn't the highest you can do. Mind Thrust has Will Negates as its saving throw. Thus, it's all-or-nothing. Looking at the CR 3 critters in the monster manual, and not counting the sixteen* monsters who are flat-out immune to it, we find Will saves ranging from +0 to +7, with an average of +3.8, or about +4. Not an insignificant value. Mind Thrust is also Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]. Undead, Constructs, Oozes, Plants and Vermin are all immune to that automatically, and several critters gain a bonus on their saves against it (elves, for instance, with their +2 to saves against enchantments -- enchantment and telepathy are equivalent). Thus, it's 3d10 (average 16.5) with a DC of 12+INT versus an average Will save of +4. This assumes you'll always breach SR (Yes, some CR 3 monsters have SR -- derro, for instance, or the formian worker (with a whopping SR 18 at CR 3!)) and that you'll always be able to close within Close range (some of them fly), and that you'll always have line of effect (some of them burrow or have Earth Glide or Xorn Movement -- even the lowly +1 Will Earth Elemental can be hard to hit if it's in the ground). Assuming a 15 Intelligence to start (the highest score on the elite array), and that by level 3 you generally don't have a Headband of Intelligence yet, this means +4 Will versus your DC 14 -- he'll pass on a 10 or higher (11/20 probability of making the save = 45% chance of actually doing damage). 16.5 average damage 45% of the time, 0 damage 55% of the time = 7.425 average damage with Mind Thrust at level 3, at a cost of 30% of your daily resources (15 Int psion 3 = 10 power points). Compare to the 10 average damage of a greatsword (2d6 with a 15 Strength used 2-handed), BEFORE Power Attack factors in, that the warrior-types can be swinging at no cost to their daily resources, and you'll see that it really isn't all that hot. Or compare it to your other options -- a 3pp Fire Energy Ray can dish out 13.5 damage if it hits, and it's generally pretty easy to hit touch ACs (especially if you switch to the 10.5 average damage Electricity ray). Or, for the REAL kicker, try Scorching Ray. 4d6 damage on a ranged touch attack averages 14 damage, almost double that of Mind Thrust, and fewer creatures are immune to it (in fact, I can only think of three -- the fire elemental, the magmin, and some types of mephit). The wizard can lay out two of these per day and still have all of his first-level spells available, with Shocking Grasp dealing as much as an electrical Energy Ray but at a third of the cost. The sorcerer can lay out FOUR Scorching Rays before dipping into his first-level slots. And all of this assumes you aren't going to use something like Color Spray, Sleep, Grease or Web to end a battle for multiple opponents NOW. (Grease doesn't even require a typical save! How many people honestly pump Balance ranks?) Mind Thrust LOOKS impressive, but it comes up short. * Allip, large animated object, assassin vine, violet fungus, ghast, giant ant, giant praying mantis, giant wasp, monstrous scorpion, gelatinous cube, phantom fungus, shadow, skeleton, locust swarm, wight, zombie.
Salla 05-13-07, 01:08 PM	Actually, it may have the highest potential, but it isn't the highest you can do. Mind Thrust has Will Negates as its saving throw. Thus, it's all-or-nothing. Looking at the CR 3 critters in the monster manual, and not counting the sixteen* monsters who are flat-out immune to it, we find Will saves ranging from +0 to +7, with an average of +3.8, or about +4. Not an insignificant value. Mind Thrust is also Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]. Undead, Constructs, Oozes, Plants and Vermin are all immune to that automatically, and several critters gain a bonus on their saves against it (elves, for instance, with their +2 to saves against enchantments -- enchantment and telepathy are equivalent). Thus, it's 3d10 (average 16.5) with a DC of 12+INT versus an average Will save of +4. This assumes you'll always breach SR (Yes, some CR 3 monsters have SR -- derro, for instance, or the formian worker (with a whopping SR 18 at CR 3!)) and that you'll always be able to close within Close range (some of them fly), and that you'll always have line of effect (some of them burrow or have Earth Glide or Xorn Movement -- even the lowly +1 Will Earth Elemental can be hard to hit if it's in the ground). Assuming a 15 Intelligence to start (the highest score on the elite array), and that by level 3 you generally don't have a Headband of Intelligence yet, this means +4 Will versus your DC 14 -- he'll pass on a 10 or higher (11/20 probability of making the save = 45% chance of actually doing damage). 16.5 average damage 45% of the time, 0 damage 55% of the time = 7.425 average damage with Mind Thrust at level 3, at a cost of 30% of your daily resources (15 Int psion 3 = 10 power points). Compare to the 10 average damage of a greatsword (2d6 with a 15 Strength used 2-handed), BEFORE Power Attack factors in, that the warrior-types can be swinging at no cost to their daily resources, and you'll see that it really isn't all that hot. Or compare it to your other options -- a 3pp Fire Energy Ray can dish out 13.5 damage if it hits, and it's generally pretty easy to hit touch ACs (especially if you switch to the 10.5 average damage Electricity ray). Or, for the REAL kicker, try Scorching Ray. 4d6 damage on a ranged touch attack averages 14 damage, almost double that of Mind Thrust, and fewer creatures are immune to it (in fact, I can only think of three -- the fire elemental, the magmin, and some types of mephit). The wizard can lay out two of these per day and still have all of his first-level spells available, with Shocking Grasp dealing as much as an electrical Energy Ray but at a third of the cost. The sorcerer can lay out FOUR Scorching Rays before dipping into his first-level slots. Mind Thrust LOOKS impressive, but it comes up short. * Allip, large animated object, assassin vine, violet fungus, ghast, giant ant, giant praying mantis, giant wasp, monstrous scorpion, gelatinous cube, phantom fungus, shadow, skeleton, locust swarm, wight, zombie. Holy detailed analysis, Batman! Dude ... you rule.