Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gunz 07-16-07, 12:33 PM	I'm actually quite certain that this has been done a bajillion times before. However, even with such a GREAT search system on these boards I was unable to find it. Alright, so I just wanted to know if I get this straight: Facts and assumptions: 1) Your DM is a teapot you call Mr. Muffins and you have OH so much fun with him. 2) True Creation creates something of 20 cu ft. at level 20. Fabricate can easily manage that. 3) The density of gold is 19.32 g/cm³ at 293 K (around room temperature) 4) 50 gold pieces = 1lb. according to PHB Calculations: 1) 20 cu ft = 566 336.932 cm³ 2) 566 336.932 cm³ gold = 10 941 629.5 g gold 3) 10 941 629.5 g gold = 24 122.1639 lb. gold 4) 24 122.1639 lb. gold = 1 206 108.2 gold pieces Conclusion: A level 20 shaper can, with one use of True Creation and Psionic Fabricate, create 1 206 108 Gold Pieces in 10, 2 rounds, spending 24pp. They can also do this quite easily 10 times a day. So, is there any reason, apart from a DM with an intelligence score, why not all high level shapers should be billionaires? Thank you.
BloodSpill 07-16-07, 12:41 PM	Experience points? True Creation Metacreativity (Creation) Level: Shaper 9 Duration: Instantaneous Power Points: 17, XP As psionic major creation, except items created are enduring and cannot be negated by dispelling magic or negating powers. For all intents and purposes, these items are completely real. XP Cost 1/5 of the item’s gold piece value, or a minimum of 1 XP. Yeah. I wasn't aware you had 241,222 experience points to spend on that power.
AntiDjinn 07-16-07, 12:55 PM	You don't come out ahead when you do this. Normally, the exchange rate when you are hired to manifest a power that has an XP cost is 5 gold per XP spent. In this case the XP cost is 1 per 5 gp value. So you will spend 1 XP per 5 gp value of the final product and will be paid 5 gold for each XP. Well, maybe you will make a small profit on the minting of coins: The value of the block of gold created will be less than the value of an equivalent volume of finished coins, and only the value of the created item is used to calculate XP cost. In that case though, it is Improved Fabricate that is putting you ahead. You could just as easily find a gold vein and crank out coins. If you have fabricate then why worry about such high level tricks? Just stand over a deposit of clay and turn out masterwork vases for sale. Or take some silica and make masterwork glassware. You don't need a kiln, tools, or even a shop to crank out more in a few minutes than an honest craftsman can make in a month. Steady cash (if you care to be a merchant rather than an adventurer) with no XP cost.
Gunz 07-16-07, 01:17 PM	Experience points? Yeah. I wasn't aware you had 241,222 experience points to spend on that power. Aha! I knew there was something. And indeed, as AntiDjinn pointed out, there are more valuable things than gold :) Thank you.
Fafnir 07-16-07, 02:16 PM	How much gold could a goldshaper shape if a goldshaper could shape gold? ... sorry. Couldn't resist. :P
CrimsonDeath 07-16-07, 03:06 PM	Experience points? Yeah. I wasn't aware you had 241,222 experience points to spend on that power. Thought Bottle. (Sorry, somebody had to say it.)
ratarang 07-16-07, 03:20 PM	Just find a way to go to Krynn or equivalent place before you manifest the power.
AntiDjinn 07-16-07, 06:19 PM	Thought Bottle. (Sorry, somebody had to say it.) If your DM is allowing Thought Bottle then a much simpler method is to say: "Give my character 100 billion gold or I won't like you anymore." He is either exceptionally bad at math or desperate for approval.
DrStalker 07-17-07, 01:19 AM	The traditional way of using magic to make gold is more fun. 1) Kick in door. 2) Kill occupant. 3) Take Stuff. 4) Go to step 1. For maximum wealth this is best performed in the nobles quarter of a large city; only amateurs do it in dangerous places like dungeons.
ratarang 07-17-07, 04:54 AM	The traditional way of using magic to make gold is more fun. 1) Kick in door. 2) Kill occupant. 3) Take Stuff. 4) Go to step 1. For maximum wealth this is best performed in the nobles quarter of a large city; only amateurs do it in dangerous places like dungeons. Nobles tend to do inconvenient things like sending the city watch or bounty hunters after you. Dungeons tend to have more powerful and unique magic items as well. If you play your cards well, you can clear out a dungeon AND take a sizable chunk of nobles' wealth as a prize. They'll even love you and call you heroes for doing it.
Kanachi 07-17-07, 06:25 AM	I may be wrong but the way I read the power it costs you xp based on the value of whatever you create (no matter what that object is). If you make pots worth a billion GP its still going to cost you the same as making gold of the equitant value. So ultimately such tricks burn your xp... it is however a nice way for a old adventurer to retire "I’m lvl 32 now and about to reach venerable age... so why don’t I cash in on this experience I have and destroy the world economy (thus becoming a BBEG in some young whippersnappers future quest)!" its the circle of life my friends, :P .
CrimsonDeath 07-17-07, 06:26 AM	Nobles tend to do inconvenient things like sending the city watch or bounty hunters after you. Dungeons tend to have more powerful and unique magic items as well. If you play your cards well, you can clear out a dungeon AND take a sizable chunk of nobles' wealth as a prize. They'll even love you and call you heroes for doing it. They might even hire you to fight some group of chumps who have been robbing them.
DracoPhoenix 07-17-07, 07:55 AM	As mentioned, there are other more valuable materials - what's the price for a 20 ft3 diamond?
Kanachi 07-17-07, 09:50 AM	The following lines are important for everyone to observe I think: XP Cost 1/5 of the item’s gold piece value, or a minimum of 1 XP. A diamond, masterfully made pot and 20ft tall jelly baby all have a GP value thus all cost you 1/5 of this value in xp. I interoperate this as including its artistic or social value... For example the scream is a near priceless painting for artistic and social reasons, but its physical material value is far less than this. This is also in keeping with the text because if it were to be to the contrary it would say something like: "the items material gold piece value". I supose it would be possible to make a replica of a sentimental artifact (in conjunction with the forgery skill) that if sucsesful in fooling an individual would be worth more than its own individual cost. This of course runs the risk that your forgery will be spotted, still I would probably allow it.
AntiDjinn 07-17-07, 10:28 AM	If you were to use True Creation to create brushes, paint, and a blank canvas, then paint a masterpiece (with or without Fabricate; you could just take the time to do it by hand with a Craft roll) then you would make a tidy profit. The value of the raw materials is not very high, and your XP cost is based only off what you create. But as with the gold coin example, above, your cash cow power is Fabricate, not True Creation. TC only saves you a trip to the art supplies store. I have never really seen much use for TC for the average shaper. By the time you can pull it off your regular creation powers last quite a while with no XP cost. The point of being a shaper is that you make whatever you need for free on the spot and so are not burdened with having to lug a lot of stuff around.
Kanachi 07-17-07, 11:03 AM	If you were to use True Creation to create brushes, paint, and a blank canvas, then paint a masterpiece (with or without Fabricate; you could just take the time to do it by hand with a Craft roll) then you would make a tidy profit. The value of the raw materials is not very high, and your XP cost is based only off what you create. But as with the gold coin example, above, your cash cow power is Fabricate, not True Creation. TC only saves you a trip to the art supplies store. I have never really seen much use for TC for the average shaper. By the time you can pull it off your regular creation powers last quite a while with no XP cost. The point of being a shaper is that you make whatever you need for free on the spot and so are not burdened with having to lug a lot of stuff around. agreed.
Fleem 07-17-07, 12:44 PM	Note that, per the Craft skill and the Fabricate spell, you must pay 1/3 the item's cost for raw materials. Fabricate still allows you to make huge amounts of money, but you can't make it out of nothing. If you want to make great pottery and paintings, you'll need to find expensive clay or buy expensive paints/brushes/canvas. Apparently.
ChimericalWolf 07-17-07, 07:27 PM	Note that, per the Craft skill and the Fabricate spell, you must pay 1/3 the item's cost for raw materials. Fabricate still allows you to make huge amounts of money, but you can't make it out of nothing. If you want to make great pottery and paintings, you'll need to find expensive clay or buy expensive paints/brushes/canvas. Apparently. Nah, use the cheap supplies and spend the rest of the 1/3 on paying nymphs to pose for you. Or spend it on wine to "fuel the creative process."
AntiDjinn 07-18-07, 01:07 AM	Well, Fabricate doesn't create something from nothing. If you want a statue carved of exquisitely veined lapis lazuli then you need to have stone of such quality in the area to be targeted. NB: The material is not a "component" or result of the power, it is the target. Whatever material you wish to shape must be present to be targeted. As noted before, garbage in, garbage out. Regarding the material value of the starting material: "Value" does not mean "cost." You don't need to spend a single copper on the material to have it be of the appropriate quality. The material could be stolen; a stolen block of perfect marble has the same value, or the original owner wouldn't even care to get it back. It could be recovered as loot during an adventure (basically, the same as stolen. You are just calling it an adventure rather than a home invasion). You could go out and obtain the material where it naturally occurs (where do you suppose the merchant who wants to sell you fine clay got it? He went out and mined it somewhere). You could slay the plant monster that is the natural source of the rare wood you seek. In any case, it will cost you some character resources: money, time, calling in favors, doing favors, charge off items, even risk of physical harm (the best stuff is generally in dangerous or hard to reach places, the easy stuff has long since been collected). Still, if the absolute best deposit of clay is in the bog of despair, it is only 10 minutes of your time (the rest of the party along to keep the monsters off of you) to make fine knick knacks out of it. You will come out with a higher profit than some who would have to harvest the same clay, haul it back to town, craft it, fire it (kilns and fuel are not cheap, and they take up space), glaze it, and fire it again.
BloodSpill 07-18-07, 11:46 AM	This brings up the question "can fabricate cook pottery?" :D
PelorVsVecna 07-18-07, 11:54 AM	Insted of crating gold create rare materials and Gems.
Fleem 07-18-07, 12:50 PM	Interesting thought, there. Can you use fabricate repeatedly for multiple levels of processing? For example, you take iron ore, fabricate it into iron ingots, fabricate that with coke (itself a fabrication of coal, IIRC) into steel, then fabricate that into actual swords. At which point the DM rolls his eyes and conjures up an army of Xorns to eat your swords and drag you to the nearest illogical dungeon.
Psionx 07-18-07, 03:34 PM	This is soo messed up... Fabricate, Psionic Metacreativity (Creation) Level: Shaper 4 Display: Material Manifesting Time: See spell text Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level; see spell text Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 7 As the fabricate spell, except as noted here. Material The subject or the area is briefly slicked with a translucent, shimmering substance. The glistening substance evaporates after 1 round regardless of the power’s duration. Sophisticated psions recognize the material as ectoplasmic seepage from the Astral Plane; this substance is completely inert. Fabricate Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: See text Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet. You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship. Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell. Material Component The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created. Powers never have material components. Usually this gets replaced by XP components, but in this case its just the material display. Does that mean something from nothing or something from ectoplasm? Or am I just completely misinterpreting this (which is equally possible).
CrimsonDeath 07-18-07, 03:49 PM	Interesting thought, there. Can you use fabricate repeatedly for multiple levels of processing? For example, you take iron ore, fabricate it into iron ingots, fabricate that with coke (itself a fabrication of coal, IIRC) into steel, then fabricate that into actual swords. At which point the DM rolls his eyes and conjures up an army of Xorns to eat your swords and drag you to the nearest illogical dungeon. It would make more sense to just fabricate the iron ore and coal directly into swords, I would think.
InkBlot 07-18-07, 03:49 PM	Powers never have material components. Usually this gets replaced by XP components, but in this case its just the material display. Does that mean something from nothing or something from ectoplasm? Or am I just completely misinterpreting this (which is equally possible). You're completely misinterpreting it. The text still says "you convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material." That statement still stands. If you want to create a wooden rocking chair, you need to have a source of timber within the power's range. A power's display is seperrate from it's effect. The only exception to this rule is when the display says "see text," and then the text specifies some special display. For example, astral constructs have a display of "visual; see text."
AntiDjinn 07-18-07, 05:12 PM	Interesting thought, there. Can you use fabricate repeatedly for multiple levels of processing? For example, you take iron ore, fabricate it into iron ingots, fabricate that with coke (itself a fabrication of coal, IIRC) into steel, then fabricate that into actual swords. At which point the DM rolls his eyes and conjures up an army of Xorns to eat your swords and drag you to the nearest illogical dungeon. If all the materials are present to be targeted then I allow one manifestation to take it all the way to a finished product with one Craft check for each "job" cut out of the process. For example, when making blown glass vessels you would have a glazier who makes the glass from raw materials, you might have a second person who tints the glass or fuses glass of various colors and forms it into tubes, a third person is the artisan who blows the glass into various hollow vessel shapes. So three craft checks: Did you get the formula for glass right (if not, it might not be as strong), did you get the color right, and did you get the shape right? Glass is more complex to work with than clay or stone, but the profit margin is high because the basic materials are cheap, so I figure the added craft checks are indicated.
AntiDjinn 07-18-07, 05:17 PM	Powers never have material components. Usually this gets replaced by XP components, but in this case its just the material display. Does that mean something from nothing or something from ectoplasm? Or am I just completely misinterpreting this (which is equally possible). The material display just means whatever you create is briefly slicked with ectoplasm, not that it is composed of astral matter. Don't be confused by the "material" you shape and the "material" display, which has absolutely zip to do with the function of the power. It is just there to give someone with the Psicraft skill a chance to figure out you are doing something supernatural (like a pile of rocks suddenly forming into a bridge won't clue them in).
Fleem 07-19-07, 09:34 AM	It would make more sense to just fabricate the iron ore and coal directly into swords, I would think. Unless you're low on cash. The idea here was to reduce the material cost (1/3 the total value of your crafting) by using multiple castings of the spell. Perhaps not very practical.