How to escape Entangling Ectoplasm [Archive] - Wizards Community

How to escape Entangling Ectoplasm [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Celas Evriamytholin
05-22-07, 05:35 PM Hey everyone! I was just wondering something... This power is a no save, no power resistance type power and as long as the character succeeds his attack roll, the target is entangled for 5 rounds.

That sounds good, and is a good power... However, nothing in the description(added below) mentions anything about how to get UN-entangle yourself. This power, which is of a measly first level, has helped greatly in several battles in keeping key enemies seperated from the rest of their force, or our own. But for those five rounds, how can they get out? If I entangle a large creature (after having augmented it), can it make a strength check to break out?

I made a compromise with my DM, since we couldn't find any rules for it, that the DC would be a strength check of 20, just like to burst a net or somesuch (even though the DC for a net is 25). We thought it was reasonable, in the middle of the game.

Are there any official answers on this that we're missing? Thanks! :)

Entangling Ectoplasm (Description below, as per the SRD, which is also linked in my sig if ever you aren't at home and would like to verify)
Metacreativity (Creation)
Level: Psion/wilder 1
Display: Material and visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One Medium or smaller creature
Duration: 5 rounds
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 1

You draw forth a glob of ectoplasmic goo from the Astral Plane and immediately throw it as a ranged touch attack at any creature in range. On a successful hit, the subject is covered in goo and becomes entangled. The goo evaporates at the end of the power’s duration.

Augment
For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power can affect a target one size category larger.
Wizard Random
05-22-07, 05:40 PM It doesn't list a burst DC because there isn't one for the power. I like how you guys were able to compe up with a rational solution however.
Be sure to keep in mind that unless the target is near something that can be used to root the target in place all the power does is cut the movment in half.
Celas Evriamytholin
05-22-07, 06:05 PM Aye.

We thought it was kind of powerful (for a first level power) for you to be stuck for 5 rounds against a wall if you have no precautionary measure against it, like Freedom of Movement or Gaseous Form, etc. Its cool that we get along very well. The DM is my older brother, and all players are quite experienced from back in the 1st edition days. They're all 25-33, and i'm 20. We don't fight about the rules, and I trust in whatever my brother decides to be fair; he's been doing this for the longest time, and he knows what he's doing. I wish my second group was like that. Ah well, c'est la vie, hein?

As a sidenote, almost everytime I have used it, it was to stick an enemy against a wall. Only two times did it fail (Gaseous form, and Freedom of Movement :P).

So, what you're saying is that, technically, you can't break out of it by mundane means? Because that makes sense too, since being stuck in ectoplasm is kinda like being stuck in a gelatinous cube in the loosest sense. Its not as easy to break out of as a net because of its form and nature. Or lack thereof.

Thanks. I think I'll just ask my DM if he wants to make the DC the same as a net. Any other feedback is appreciated :)
Racinante
05-22-07, 06:13 PM The power entangles the subject. From the SRD
Entangled: The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell's level) or lose the spell.

Nothing in the power gives you the ability to anchor the entangling ectoplasm, so the subject can move at half speed and takes a -2 on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to dexterity and must make concentration checks when manifesting or casting.
Scion of Coldshard
05-22-07, 06:28 PM A regular tanglefoot bag is better in a number of ways, do you all have special rules for removing those as well?

This is assuming that you are not letting entangling ectoplasm actually stick people to floors of course.
Celas Evriamytholin
05-22-07, 06:36 PM So I can't immobolize an opponent against a wall or somesuch with this power?
Fafnir
05-22-07, 06:45 PM As a comparison, the Strenght DC for Wall of Ectoplasm is 15+2*inches.

I guess DC 20 is ok.
hovnarr
05-22-07, 07:04 PM So I can't immobolize an opponent against a wall or somesuch with this power?

No, but it's still a very good power. First, the effect is very hard to avoid as you point out. Second, it's debilitating for many opponent types and is a PP well spent at almost all levels. Just look at it:

*half speed: That's good against all enemies
*cannot run or charge: Combined with half speed, means escaping is almost automatic and not being able to charge is hugely significant against some monsters.
*-2 penalty on all attack rolls: Since AC vs. attack rolls is a roughly proportionate relationship throughout many levels, taking a -2 penalty is always good if the creature makes attack rolls, and most do.
*-4 penalty to Dexterity: At the very least, this means -2 to AC, -2 to initiative and -2 to all dex based checks.
*Concentration check or lose the spell: It's mostly significant at low-mid level when concentration checks are low, but how would you feel if you had an average spell failure of about 25-50%? Would you even attempt to cast a spell? Could you afford not to?

All this for only 1 pp, and the only requirement is to hit with a touch attack. Compare with the level 1 cleric spell Doom that causes a creature to become Shaken rather than Entangled. Try it, and feel the difference. ;)
AntiDjinn
05-23-07, 01:33 AM All it does is give the target the "entangled" status. See PHB p. 308 (the SRD version was already quoted. What you see there is exactly what happens to the target, nothing more.

Its main limitation at low levels is that it is all or nothing and depends on a hit roll. A first level psion or wilder has a BAB of +0 so even a ranged touch attack is not a given. A ranged touch attack is modified by Dex, not Int or Cha, so you need a second good stat if you want to hit (for powers that act against a saving throw only your key stat mod needs to be high). At higher levels hitting someone's touch AC becomes (generally) easier, but then the power's other limitation kicks in: its duration is set at only 5 rounds. If you Extend it that is a minute. By then you are much more apt to spend your action to land a debuff that lasts a number of rounds based on your ML.
forsaken1111
05-23-07, 02:12 AM Where in the world did you get the idea that it stops someone from moving?
crizhII
05-23-07, 05:05 AM Movement rate reductions stack. Unlike most multiplications they are multiplicative rather than additive.

My Druid/Erudite (Don't ask....) has discovered that Entangling Ectoplasm followed by Entangle is hugely effective, particularly against targets in Heavy Armour. A move speed of 5' really sucks big time. :D
hovnarr
05-23-07, 07:37 AM Its main limitation at low levels is that it is all or nothing and depends on a hit roll. A first level psion or wilder has a BAB of +0 so even a ranged touch attack is not a given. A ranged touch attack is modified by Dex, not Int or Cha, so you need a second good stat if you want to hit (for powers that act against a saving throw only your key stat mod needs to be high). At higher levels hitting someone's touch AC becomes (generally) easier, but then the power's other limitation kicks in: its duration is set at only 5 rounds. If you Extend it that is a minute.

Precisely how I see it too. I'm not saying it's unbalance mind you, but it's a 1 pp well spent through a lot of a psions career. At high levels, pp and duration doesn't matter so much as that you're spending an action on it. Still, for a schism or other extra action, it's still lots of bang for the buck.
Fleem
05-23-07, 04:05 PM I suppose Dispel Magic/Power spells would also end Entangling Ectoplasm. One other limiting factor is the short range. If you miss or the target is sufficiently fast, they may very well come for you in response.

Now, do Entangling Ectoplasm and Entangle really stack? They both make the target Entangled, which is the same effect, and I wouldn't expect two EctoEntangles to stack with each other. If you were Entangled and Slowed or Decelerated, that would seem a better option for stacking.
crizhII
05-23-07, 05:04 PM Now, do Entangling Ectoplasm and Entangle really stack? They both make the target Entangled, which is the same effect, and I wouldn't expect two EctoEntangles to stack with each other. If you were Entangled and Slowed or Decelerated, that would seem a better option for stacking.

A creature whose movement rate has been reduced by 'Entangle' has not, by definition, been entangled.

Had they been entangled they would not be able to move at all.

As to whether entangles stack, I've no idea.

(Scurries away to pore over PHB....)
kentonblack
05-23-07, 07:40 PM *hops up and down expectantly, wishing for a ruling from the books*

OOOOOOOHHHHHHH! I really wanna know this one. officially.And with rules to back it up!

PLease?! *puppy dog eyes*

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Celas Evriamytholin 05-22-07, 05:35 PM	Hey everyone! I was just wondering something... This power is a no save, no power resistance type power and as long as the character succeeds his attack roll, the target is entangled for 5 rounds. That sounds good, and is a good power... However, nothing in the description(added below) mentions anything about how to get UN-entangle yourself. This power, which is of a measly first level, has helped greatly in several battles in keeping key enemies seperated from the rest of their force, or our own. But for those five rounds, how can they get out? If I entangle a large creature (after having augmented it), can it make a strength check to break out? I made a compromise with my DM, since we couldn't find any rules for it, that the DC would be a strength check of 20, just like to burst a net or somesuch (even though the DC for a net is 25). We thought it was reasonable, in the middle of the game. Are there any official answers on this that we're missing? Thanks! :) Entangling Ectoplasm (Description below, as per the SRD, which is also linked in my sig if ever you aren't at home and would like to verify) Metacreativity (Creation) Level: Psion/wilder 1 Display: Material and visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One Medium or smaller creature Duration: 5 rounds Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 1 You draw forth a glob of ectoplasmic goo from the Astral Plane and immediately throw it as a ranged touch attack at any creature in range. On a successful hit, the subject is covered in goo and becomes entangled. The goo evaporates at the end of the power’s duration. Augment For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power can affect a target one size category larger.
Wizard Random 05-22-07, 05:40 PM	It doesn't list a burst DC because there isn't one for the power. I like how you guys were able to compe up with a rational solution however. Be sure to keep in mind that unless the target is near something that can be used to root the target in place all the power does is cut the movment in half.
Celas Evriamytholin 05-22-07, 06:05 PM	Aye. We thought it was kind of powerful (for a first level power) for you to be stuck for 5 rounds against a wall if you have no precautionary measure against it, like Freedom of Movement or Gaseous Form, etc. Its cool that we get along very well. The DM is my older brother, and all players are quite experienced from back in the 1st edition days. They're all 25-33, and i'm 20. We don't fight about the rules, and I trust in whatever my brother decides to be fair; he's been doing this for the longest time, and he knows what he's doing. I wish my second group was like that. Ah well, c'est la vie, hein? As a sidenote, almost everytime I have used it, it was to stick an enemy against a wall. Only two times did it fail (Gaseous form, and Freedom of Movement :P). So, what you're saying is that, technically, you can't break out of it by mundane means? Because that makes sense too, since being stuck in ectoplasm is kinda like being stuck in a gelatinous cube in the loosest sense. Its not as easy to break out of as a net because of its form and nature. Or lack thereof. Thanks. I think I'll just ask my DM if he wants to make the DC the same as a net. Any other feedback is appreciated :)
Racinante 05-22-07, 06:13 PM	The power entangles the subject. From the SRD Entangled: The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell's level) or lose the spell. Nothing in the power gives you the ability to anchor the entangling ectoplasm, so the subject can move at half speed and takes a -2 on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to dexterity and must make concentration checks when manifesting or casting.
Scion of Coldshard 05-22-07, 06:28 PM	A regular tanglefoot bag is better in a number of ways, do you all have special rules for removing those as well? This is assuming that you are not letting entangling ectoplasm actually stick people to floors of course.
Celas Evriamytholin 05-22-07, 06:36 PM	So I can't immobolize an opponent against a wall or somesuch with this power?
Fafnir 05-22-07, 06:45 PM	As a comparison, the Strenght DC for Wall of Ectoplasm is 15+2*inches. I guess DC 20 is ok.
hovnarr 05-22-07, 07:04 PM	So I can't immobolize an opponent against a wall or somesuch with this power? No, but it's still a very good power. First, the effect is very hard to avoid as you point out. Second, it's debilitating for many opponent types and is a PP well spent at almost all levels. Just look at it: half speed: That's good against all enemies cannot run or charge: Combined with half speed, means escaping is almost automatic and not being able to charge is hugely significant against some monsters. -2 penalty on all attack rolls: Since AC vs. attack rolls is a roughly proportionate relationship throughout many levels, taking a -2 penalty is always good if the creature makes attack rolls, and most do. -4 penalty to Dexterity: At the very least, this means -2 to AC, -2 to initiative and -2 to all dex based checks. *Concentration check or lose the spell: It's mostly significant at low-mid level when concentration checks are low, but how would you feel if you had an average spell failure of about 25-50%? Would you even attempt to cast a spell? Could you afford not to? All this for only 1 pp, and the only requirement is to hit with a touch attack. Compare with the level 1 cleric spell Doom that causes a creature to become Shaken rather than Entangled. Try it, and feel the difference. ;)
AntiDjinn 05-23-07, 01:33 AM	All it does is give the target the "entangled" status. See PHB p. 308 (the SRD version was already quoted. What you see there is exactly what happens to the target, nothing more. Its main limitation at low levels is that it is all or nothing and depends on a hit roll. A first level psion or wilder has a BAB of +0 so even a ranged touch attack is not a given. A ranged touch attack is modified by Dex, not Int or Cha, so you need a second good stat if you want to hit (for powers that act against a saving throw only your key stat mod needs to be high). At higher levels hitting someone's touch AC becomes (generally) easier, but then the power's other limitation kicks in: its duration is set at only 5 rounds. If you Extend it that is a minute. By then you are much more apt to spend your action to land a debuff that lasts a number of rounds based on your ML.
forsaken1111 05-23-07, 02:12 AM	Where in the world did you get the idea that it stops someone from moving?
crizhII 05-23-07, 05:05 AM	Movement rate reductions stack. Unlike most multiplications they are multiplicative rather than additive. My Druid/Erudite (Don't ask....) has discovered that Entangling Ectoplasm followed by Entangle is hugely effective, particularly against targets in Heavy Armour. A move speed of 5' really sucks big time. :D
hovnarr 05-23-07, 07:37 AM	Its main limitation at low levels is that it is all or nothing and depends on a hit roll. A first level psion or wilder has a BAB of +0 so even a ranged touch attack is not a given. A ranged touch attack is modified by Dex, not Int or Cha, so you need a second good stat if you want to hit (for powers that act against a saving throw only your key stat mod needs to be high). At higher levels hitting someone's touch AC becomes (generally) easier, but then the power's other limitation kicks in: its duration is set at only 5 rounds. If you Extend it that is a minute. Precisely how I see it too. I'm not saying it's unbalance mind you, but it's a 1 pp well spent through a lot of a psions career. At high levels, pp and duration doesn't matter so much as that you're spending an action on it. Still, for a schism or other extra action, it's still lots of bang for the buck.
Fleem 05-23-07, 04:05 PM	I suppose Dispel Magic/Power spells would also end Entangling Ectoplasm. One other limiting factor is the short range. If you miss or the target is sufficiently fast, they may very well come for you in response. Now, do Entangling Ectoplasm and Entangle really stack? They both make the target Entangled, which is the same effect, and I wouldn't expect two EctoEntangles to stack with each other. If you were Entangled and Slowed or Decelerated, that would seem a better option for stacking.
crizhII 05-23-07, 05:04 PM	Now, do Entangling Ectoplasm and Entangle really stack? They both make the target Entangled, which is the same effect, and I wouldn't expect two EctoEntangles to stack with each other. If you were Entangled and Slowed or Decelerated, that would seem a better option for stacking. A creature whose movement rate has been reduced by 'Entangle' has not, by definition, been entangled. Had they been entangled they would not be able to move at all. As to whether entangles stack, I've no idea. (Scurries away to pore over PHB....)
kentonblack 05-23-07, 07:40 PM	hops up and down expectantly, wishing for a ruling from the books OOOOOOOHHHHHHH! I really wanna know this one. officially.And with rules to back it up! PLease?! puppy dog eyes