How to handle True Mind Switch [Archive] - Wizards Community

How to handle True Mind Switch [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Derren S.
10-22-07, 10:28 AM To all DMs with high level Telepaths in their game. How do you handle the True Mind Switch power as the telepath can get a rather hefty power increase with only social drawbacks when he uses TMS on physically strong monster?
vorpo
10-22-07, 11:33 AM Where is his body after switch
DracoPhoenix
10-22-07, 11:57 AM Be more afraid of Mind Seed - a level lower and on the right ruler...

Ok, hefty cost IIRC, but your own spy network made of people you can either implicitly trust (they're ~you & working to the same goal), or have to watch your back constantly (again, they're ~you and working to the same goal ;)).

At least with MS & TMS, there's still only one of you. Although that Silver Dragon might want his body back sometime...

Also, - MS/TMS + Astral Seed. Then he doesn't have to worry about his last body, just the -ve Level from the auto res.
PhaedrusXY
10-22-07, 02:05 PM Also, - MS/TMS + Astral Seed. Then he doesn't have to worry about his last body, just the -ve Level from the auto res.Yes, this is the way to go. Astral Seed + Mind Switch, then crush your astral seed. Or Mind Switch, then Astral Seed while in the new body, then kill yourself and come back in the new form.

Yeah, it is powerful, and I'm not sure how I'd deal with it as a DM. I have never DMed for a powerful Telepath.
hogarth
10-22-07, 02:30 PM As a DM, I would certainly apply a Level Adjustment corresponding to the telepath's new body. But I would probably discourage a PC from taking it in the first place.
Psionx
10-22-07, 04:10 PM I'd congratulate him on his acquisition of a new and more powerful body and understand that this is precisely what the power is there for. Of course I'm a power gamer so it might not be the best of advice, but really, isn't that true mind switch has an XP cost for?
hogarth
10-22-07, 04:34 PM I'd congratulate him on his acquisition of a new and more powerful body and understand that this is precisely what the power is there for. Of course I'm a power gamer so it might not be the best of advice, but really, isn't that true mind switch has an XP cost for?
To me, it's the same sort of thing as a player going out and finding a powerful lycanthrope willing to infect him (dire werebear, let's say). I don't think there's anything wrong with that, per se, but expecting to play the same character in a party that doesn't have the same LA can be kind of annoying for the rest of the party (e.g. if Superman is in the Superfriends, why do we need Aquaman?).
Psionx
10-22-07, 04:50 PM To me, it's the same sort of thing as a player going out and finding a powerful lycanthrope willing to infect him (dire werebear, let's say). I don't think there's anything wrong with that, per se, but expecting to play the same character in a party that doesn't have the same LA can be kind of annoying for the rest of the party (e.g. if Superman is in the Superfriends, why do we need Aquaman?).

Oh I know, it's just that its kind of like... magic has better cheese, I'm just evening out the battlefield... Actually I know that its wrong, but my magic/psionic using players would just love my games for my rules loose fun. As for aquaman, isn't it seaman :evillaugh (and no I don't know why they need him)?
Derren S.
10-23-07, 03:57 AM As a DM, I would certainly apply a Level Adjustment corresponding to the telepath's new body.

Yes, but the problem is that this level adjustment doesn't remove his actual level and only make further advancement harder.

So a lvl 17-18 Telepath could argue that instead of 2 Psion levels he would be better of with a +6LA body and use True Mind Switch on a Dragon, Balor or whatever he finds.
CrimsonDeath
10-23-07, 03:59 AM There's also the fact that many valid targets for True mind Switch have an LA entry of "--".
hogarth
10-23-07, 07:02 AM Yes, but the problem is that this level adjustment doesn't remove his actual level and only make further advancement harder.

So a lvl 17-18 Telepath could argue that instead of 2 Psion levels he would be better of with a +6LA body and use True Mind Switch on a Dragon, Balor or whatever he finds.
Right. It's the same thing that happens if one player turns into a lycanthrope or a vampire; all of a sudden one player has a big +LA and it's not really appropriate for them all to adventure together (hence my Superman/Aquaman comparison). That's why I'd suggest to the player that either (a) no party member should get such a big jump in power or (b) everyone should get one at the same time.
There's also the fact that many valid targets for True mind Switch have an LA entry of "--".
And yet, as a DM I would feel no qualms just making one up. :)
Lokathor
10-23-07, 07:12 AM As a player I'd only pull off such a thing as a "retirement stunt", and then move on. It's cool to end on a high note.

As a DM, don't be afraid to generate your own LAs, and lean high when estimating.
Derren S.
10-23-07, 07:45 AM As a DM, don't be afraid to generate your own LAs, and lean high when estimating.

The problem is that depending on when the players pull off such a stunt, LA might be irrelevant.
For example True Mind Switch is a 9th level power so at best and without using epic levels you only miss 3 levels of advancment and a couple of more known 9th level spells. So it doesn't really matter much how much LA you get as you can only advance for 3 levels anyway and trading those levels for huge physical boni and other abilities (Don't have the book with me but you get the new forms EX abilities, right?) sounds like a very good deal.
DracoPhoenix
10-23-07, 08:08 AM The problem is that depending on when the players pull off such a stunt, LA might be irrelevant.
For example True Mind Switch is a 9th level power so at best and without using epic levels you only miss 3 levels of advancment and a couple of more known 9th level spells. So it doesn't really matter much how much LA you get as you can only advance for 3 levels anyway and trading those levels for huge physical boni and other abilities (Don't have the book with me but you get the new forms EX abilities, right?) sounds like a very good deal.

The problem there is powerstones. While TMS might be expensive, MS + Astral seed won't be. Which means for a "mere" 1 -ve level you can temporarily borrow that silver dragons body (he knows he'll get it back after all), pop Astral Seed and then die. (reform -> exp know -> reform the relevant powers).

I think even Metamorphosis will work, though IIRC MS works better in general.

10 days later you have a nice new shiny Silver Dragon's body for 1-ve Level. (which as a caster is marginally worse than +1LA due to the -1 bab & all saves)
Lokathor
10-23-07, 05:13 PM The problem is that depending on when the players pull off such a stunt, LA might be irrelevant.
For example True Mind Switch is a 9th level power so at best and without using epic levels you only miss 3 levels of advancment and a couple of more known 9th level spells. So it doesn't really matter much how much LA you get as you can only advance for 3 levels anyway and trading those levels for huge physical boni and other abilities (Don't have the book with me but you get the new forms EX abilities, right?) sounds like a very good deal.

Well, yeah, but just because you don't plan on going into epic doesn't mean that you can't use the Epic EXP chart on him. The chart for 21st level characters stretches from CR14 up to CR27, with +1 level on each end for each level abov that. So, if an LA +6 body is grabbed, then he won't advance much as the party creeps on to 20th. If he grabs a body that's the equivalent of LA+14 (or something huge) he won't really advance ever again (compared to his human friends). Continually not getting hit dice while everyone else does is a hefty balancing factor.

And really, if the game goes to 20th, it's not a big deal to crawl into 21st and stuff too. Why all games are magically assumed to either stop instantly at 20th or instantly jump into crazy land is beyond me. People can be reasonable, and when they can't be, that's what the DM is hopefully there for.
DracoPhoenix
10-24-07, 04:06 AM Well, yeah, but just because you don't plan on going into epic doesn't mean that you can't use the Epic EXP chart on him. The chart for 21st level characters stretches from CR14 up to CR27, with +1 level on each end for each level abov that. So, if an LA +6 body is grabbed, then he won't advance much as the party creeps on to 20th. If he grabs a body that's the equivalent of LA+14 (or something huge) he won't really advance ever again (compared to his human friends). Continually not getting hit dice while everyone else does is a hefty balancing factor.

Problem with the after the fact LA's - especially +14, is that they're still ahead of the curve (by a considerable margin) for the next 12 levels.

For example under the original rules (which if someone didn't have the internet & didn't have complete psionic, could claim), one could use (Gtr?) Metamorphosis to change into a Great Wyrm (and then Astral seed), with however many levels you had in whatever psion class...

A great wyrm in a non/barely epic party is going to be silly no matter what LA it has. (Which is technically none.)
Lokathor
10-24-07, 06:29 AM Mind Switch says "You gain the extraordinary special attacks and qualities of your assumed body, but you do not gain supernatural or spell-like abilities.", that's not so bad. They can be Colossal, huge NA, flying, big stats, but since you also retain your own HP (modified by your new Con), it's mostly a HP boost.

Also, Shivering Touch. Everyone uses Shivering Touch on dragons, all the time.

Clearly, every other monster has it's own weakness, but think of it this way: If the NPC enemy did it, how would the PCs try to defeat him? Same deal. The often evil foes probably aren't above killing and then impersonating a Gold Dragon (or similar "good" assumed creature) to advance their goals.
Derren S.
10-24-07, 08:10 AM As you keep the EX abilities, something with regeneration would make a good host body.
How high is the Will Save of the Tarrasque? With those physical stats and EX abilities agumented by your own psionic powers that would be the perfect body to get.
PhaedrusXY
10-24-07, 11:46 AM Actually, it's not that big of a deal, now that I think about it. A Psion of this level could get everything being described and more via Greater Metamorphosis. It would just be temporary, instead of permanent. And of course, permanently being a big monster does have a few drawbacks, also.
Psionx
10-24-07, 11:58 AM Actually on the tarrasque, I don't really think you can give something like that a level adjustment, as alot of the stuff it lacks is made up by your stuff and in general it would be nigh impossible to kill you.
hogarth
10-24-07, 01:57 PM Actually, it's not that big of a deal, now that I think about it. A Psion of this level could get everything being described and more via Greater Metamorphosis. It would just be temporary, instead of permanent. And of course, permanently being a big monster does have a few drawbacks, also.
Well, an Egoist could get Greater Metamorphosis, not a Telepath. Frankly, I think there are some advantages to a power that's (a) undispellable/permanent/works in an AMF (vs dispellable and 1 min/level) and (b) has no HD cap on the form assumed, too apparently I can't read. You don't get supernatural abilities with Mind Switch, though (which is a bit of a downer).
PhaedrusXY
10-24-07, 04:09 PM Permanent and undispellable vs. gets supernatural abilities? I think the latter is actually a LOT more powerful in most games. And heck, the Egoist can do that at level 7 a few times per day, if he takes Metamorphic Transfer.

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that this isn't broken or overpowered at all compared to what other characters can do at this level, even other psions. It's just the capstone ability of the Telepath. Yeah, it makes the 20th level fighters of the group look like chumps... but that's because they are compared to almost any other class...
Tsuul
10-24-07, 04:47 PM For example True Mind Switch is a 9th level power so at best and without using epic levels you only miss 3 levels of advancment and a couple of more known 9th level spells.You are never considered epic based what experience you need to achieve next level. For epic feats, it is based on class HD and racial HD. For epic save and attack bonuses, it is based on class levels only. LA never calculates into the equations.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Derren S. 10-22-07, 10:28 AM	To all DMs with high level Telepaths in their game. How do you handle the True Mind Switch power as the telepath can get a rather hefty power increase with only social drawbacks when he uses TMS on physically strong monster?
vorpo 10-22-07, 11:33 AM	Where is his body after switch
DracoPhoenix 10-22-07, 11:57 AM	Be more afraid of Mind Seed - a level lower and on the right ruler... Ok, hefty cost IIRC, but your own spy network made of people you can either implicitly trust (they're ~you & working to the same goal), or have to watch your back constantly (again, they're ~you and working to the same goal ;)). At least with MS & TMS, there's still only one of you. Although that Silver Dragon might want his body back sometime... Also, - MS/TMS + Astral Seed. Then he doesn't have to worry about his last body, just the -ve Level from the auto res.
PhaedrusXY 10-22-07, 02:05 PM	Also, - MS/TMS + Astral Seed. Then he doesn't have to worry about his last body, just the -ve Level from the auto res.Yes, this is the way to go. Astral Seed + Mind Switch, then crush your astral seed. Or Mind Switch, then Astral Seed while in the new body, then kill yourself and come back in the new form. Yeah, it is powerful, and I'm not sure how I'd deal with it as a DM. I have never DMed for a powerful Telepath.
hogarth 10-22-07, 02:30 PM	As a DM, I would certainly apply a Level Adjustment corresponding to the telepath's new body. But I would probably discourage a PC from taking it in the first place.
Psionx 10-22-07, 04:10 PM	I'd congratulate him on his acquisition of a new and more powerful body and understand that this is precisely what the power is there for. Of course I'm a power gamer so it might not be the best of advice, but really, isn't that true mind switch has an XP cost for?
hogarth 10-22-07, 04:34 PM	I'd congratulate him on his acquisition of a new and more powerful body and understand that this is precisely what the power is there for. Of course I'm a power gamer so it might not be the best of advice, but really, isn't that true mind switch has an XP cost for? To me, it's the same sort of thing as a player going out and finding a powerful lycanthrope willing to infect him (dire werebear, let's say). I don't think there's anything wrong with that, per se, but expecting to play the same character in a party that doesn't have the same LA can be kind of annoying for the rest of the party (e.g. if Superman is in the Superfriends, why do we need Aquaman?).
Psionx 10-22-07, 04:50 PM	To me, it's the same sort of thing as a player going out and finding a powerful lycanthrope willing to infect him (dire werebear, let's say). I don't think there's anything wrong with that, per se, but expecting to play the same character in a party that doesn't have the same LA can be kind of annoying for the rest of the party (e.g. if Superman is in the Superfriends, why do we need Aquaman?). Oh I know, it's just that its kind of like... magic has better cheese, I'm just evening out the battlefield... Actually I know that its wrong, but my magic/psionic using players would just love my games for my rules loose fun. As for aquaman, isn't it seaman :evillaugh (and no I don't know why they need him)?
Derren S. 10-23-07, 03:57 AM	As a DM, I would certainly apply a Level Adjustment corresponding to the telepath's new body. Yes, but the problem is that this level adjustment doesn't remove his actual level and only make further advancement harder. So a lvl 17-18 Telepath could argue that instead of 2 Psion levels he would be better of with a +6LA body and use True Mind Switch on a Dragon, Balor or whatever he finds.
CrimsonDeath 10-23-07, 03:59 AM	There's also the fact that many valid targets for True mind Switch have an LA entry of "--".
hogarth 10-23-07, 07:02 AM	Yes, but the problem is that this level adjustment doesn't remove his actual level and only make further advancement harder. So a lvl 17-18 Telepath could argue that instead of 2 Psion levels he would be better of with a +6LA body and use True Mind Switch on a Dragon, Balor or whatever he finds. Right. It's the same thing that happens if one player turns into a lycanthrope or a vampire; all of a sudden one player has a big +LA and it's not really appropriate for them all to adventure together (hence my Superman/Aquaman comparison). That's why I'd suggest to the player that either (a) no party member should get such a big jump in power or (b) everyone should get one at the same time. There's also the fact that many valid targets for True mind Switch have an LA entry of "--". And yet, as a DM I would feel no qualms just making one up. :)
Lokathor 10-23-07, 07:12 AM	As a player I'd only pull off such a thing as a "retirement stunt", and then move on. It's cool to end on a high note. As a DM, don't be afraid to generate your own LAs, and lean high when estimating.
Derren S. 10-23-07, 07:45 AM	As a DM, don't be afraid to generate your own LAs, and lean high when estimating. The problem is that depending on when the players pull off such a stunt, LA might be irrelevant. For example True Mind Switch is a 9th level power so at best and without using epic levels you only miss 3 levels of advancment and a couple of more known 9th level spells. So it doesn't really matter much how much LA you get as you can only advance for 3 levels anyway and trading those levels for huge physical boni and other abilities (Don't have the book with me but you get the new forms EX abilities, right?) sounds like a very good deal.
DracoPhoenix 10-23-07, 08:08 AM	The problem is that depending on when the players pull off such a stunt, LA might be irrelevant. For example True Mind Switch is a 9th level power so at best and without using epic levels you only miss 3 levels of advancment and a couple of more known 9th level spells. So it doesn't really matter much how much LA you get as you can only advance for 3 levels anyway and trading those levels for huge physical boni and other abilities (Don't have the book with me but you get the new forms EX abilities, right?) sounds like a very good deal. The problem there is powerstones. While TMS might be expensive, MS + Astral seed won't be. Which means for a "mere" 1 -ve level you can temporarily borrow that silver dragons body (he knows he'll get it back after all), pop Astral Seed and then die. (reform -> exp know -> reform the relevant powers). I think even Metamorphosis will work, though IIRC MS works better in general. 10 days later you have a nice new shiny Silver Dragon's body for 1-ve Level. (which as a caster is marginally worse than +1LA due to the -1 bab & all saves)
Lokathor 10-23-07, 05:13 PM	The problem is that depending on when the players pull off such a stunt, LA might be irrelevant. For example True Mind Switch is a 9th level power so at best and without using epic levels you only miss 3 levels of advancment and a couple of more known 9th level spells. So it doesn't really matter much how much LA you get as you can only advance for 3 levels anyway and trading those levels for huge physical boni and other abilities (Don't have the book with me but you get the new forms EX abilities, right?) sounds like a very good deal. Well, yeah, but just because you don't plan on going into epic doesn't mean that you can't use the Epic EXP chart on him. The chart for 21st level characters stretches from CR14 up to CR27, with +1 level on each end for each level abov that. So, if an LA +6 body is grabbed, then he won't advance much as the party creeps on to 20th. If he grabs a body that's the equivalent of LA+14 (or something huge) he won't really advance ever again (compared to his human friends). Continually not getting hit dice while everyone else does is a hefty balancing factor. And really, if the game goes to 20th, it's not a big deal to crawl into 21st and stuff too. Why all games are magically assumed to either stop instantly at 20th or instantly jump into crazy land is beyond me. People can be reasonable, and when they can't be, that's what the DM is hopefully there for.
DracoPhoenix 10-24-07, 04:06 AM	Well, yeah, but just because you don't plan on going into epic doesn't mean that you can't use the Epic EXP chart on him. The chart for 21st level characters stretches from CR14 up to CR27, with +1 level on each end for each level abov that. So, if an LA +6 body is grabbed, then he won't advance much as the party creeps on to 20th. If he grabs a body that's the equivalent of LA+14 (or something huge) he won't really advance ever again (compared to his human friends). Continually not getting hit dice while everyone else does is a hefty balancing factor. Problem with the after the fact LA's - especially +14, is that they're still ahead of the curve (by a considerable margin) for the next 12 levels. For example under the original rules (which if someone didn't have the internet & didn't have complete psionic, could claim), one could use (Gtr?) Metamorphosis to change into a Great Wyrm (and then Astral seed), with however many levels you had in whatever psion class... A great wyrm in a non/barely epic party is going to be silly no matter what LA it has. (Which is technically none.)
Lokathor 10-24-07, 06:29 AM	Mind Switch says "You gain the extraordinary special attacks and qualities of your assumed body, but you do not gain supernatural or spell-like abilities.", that's not so bad. They can be Colossal, huge NA, flying, big stats, but since you also retain your own HP (modified by your new Con), it's mostly a HP boost. Also, Shivering Touch. Everyone uses Shivering Touch on dragons, all the time. Clearly, every other monster has it's own weakness, but think of it this way: If the NPC enemy did it, how would the PCs try to defeat him? Same deal. The often evil foes probably aren't above killing and then impersonating a Gold Dragon (or similar "good" assumed creature) to advance their goals.
Derren S. 10-24-07, 08:10 AM	As you keep the EX abilities, something with regeneration would make a good host body. How high is the Will Save of the Tarrasque? With those physical stats and EX abilities agumented by your own psionic powers that would be the perfect body to get.
PhaedrusXY 10-24-07, 11:46 AM	Actually, it's not that big of a deal, now that I think about it. A Psion of this level could get everything being described and more via Greater Metamorphosis. It would just be temporary, instead of permanent. And of course, permanently being a big monster does have a few drawbacks, also.
Psionx 10-24-07, 11:58 AM	Actually on the tarrasque, I don't really think you can give something like that a level adjustment, as alot of the stuff it lacks is made up by your stuff and in general it would be nigh impossible to kill you.
hogarth 10-24-07, 01:57 PM	Actually, it's not that big of a deal, now that I think about it. A Psion of this level could get everything being described and more via Greater Metamorphosis. It would just be temporary, instead of permanent. And of course, permanently being a big monster does have a few drawbacks, also. Well, an Egoist could get Greater Metamorphosis, not a Telepath. Frankly, I think there are some advantages to a power that's (a) undispellable/permanent/works in an AMF (vs dispellable and 1 min/level) and (b) has no HD cap on the form assumed, too apparently I can't read. You don't get supernatural abilities with Mind Switch, though (which is a bit of a downer).
PhaedrusXY 10-24-07, 04:09 PM	Permanent and undispellable vs. gets supernatural abilities? I think the latter is actually a LOT more powerful in most games. And heck, the Egoist can do that at level 7 a few times per day, if he takes Metamorphic Transfer. Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that this isn't broken or overpowered at all compared to what other characters can do at this level, even other psions. It's just the capstone ability of the Telepath. Yeah, it makes the 20th level fighters of the group look like chumps... but that's because they are compared to almost any other class...
Tsuul 10-24-07, 04:47 PM	For example True Mind Switch is a 9th level power so at best and without using epic levels you only miss 3 levels of advancment and a couple of more known 9th level spells.You are never considered epic based what experience you need to achieve next level. For epic feats, it is based on class HD and racial HD. For epic save and attack bonuses, it is based on class levels only. LA never calculates into the equations.