How to make a Body Fuel psion that doesn't kill the game? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How to make a Body Fuel psion that doesn't kill the game? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DreamerInsane
11-21-07, 09:37 AM So, if we assume that the Body Fuel+Strongheart Vest trick is ruled to work in group.

How do I make a Psion that wouldn't annoy the hell out of my friends by, say, Wgo Whipping everyone with impunity.

One thing I'm planning to do, at the very least, is to take Empathic Transfer and Body Adjustment. That way, the cheese will at least keep others from dying, and the party can adventure longer.

Also wondering if this should be made into a PsyWar, as those just can't go nova as badly as Psions.
InkBlot
11-21-07, 11:15 AM If you're really worried about it, then don't use the Strongheart Vest.

But Body Fuel deals ability burn, not ability damage, so the Strongheart Vest shouldn't work anyway. At the very least, preventing the ability burn should also prevent gaining any power points.

Empathic transfer works better with vigor than with body adjustment, by the way.
DracoPhoenix
11-21-07, 11:22 AM If you're really worried about it, then don't use the Strongheart Vest.

But Body Fuel deals ability burn, not ability damage, so the Strongheart Vest shouldn't work anyway. At the very least, preventing the ability burn should also prevent gaining any power points.

Empathic transfer works better with vigor than with body adjustment, by the way.

I would have though Empathic Transfer + Empathic Transfer hostile would work better? If you're comfortable starting an encounter with less than full health, that is. (Or a great one if you're an Arch Psion with the touch @ range ability)
Wizard Random
11-21-07, 11:28 AM I remember a time not so long ago where I (with my supporters) stormed the castle of reason here at the psionics board and insited that the strongheart vest did in fact work with the strongheart vest. The battle was fierce and many brave soldiers on both sides fell, when finally at last I had the enemy commander corned. I however forgot one thing, apparantley Lycan-mancer apparently has 30 levels of bad ass and a diplo check of +100. In the end I was defeated.

Long story short unless you have a house rule the strongheart vest will not stop the damage from Body Fuel. I think once upon a time Awaken_DM_golem had a idea to get past it /shrug.

Yes in this case it seems you have a houserule backing you up, so the easiest answer is to not take either the vest or body in conjunction with each other. Even I who pays attention and has years of experience with psions still only do "so much" when I game so as not to rip apart the fabric of the multiverse.
Risingdragon145
11-21-07, 11:41 AM What is this Strongheart Vest? Anyone know what book it is in?
InkBlot
11-21-07, 12:12 PM The strongheart vest is in Magic Of Incarnum (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050907a). It's a soulmeld; a cross between a magic item and a spell, weaved from the substance of dead souls and souls not yet born. Soulmelds are ephemeral things, not permanent magic items. They're like all-day-spells, but you can reallocate power (essentia points) from one to another on the fly round-to-round.

Anyone can learn to shape any soulmeld simply by taking the Shape Soulmeld feat. Every psion is just one feat away from the Strongheart Vest.

I would have though Empathic Transfer + Empathic Transfer hostile would work better? If you're comfortable starting an encounter with less than full health, that is. (Or a great one if you're an Arch Psion with the touch @ range ability)

As you said, hostile empathic transfer requires you to be a) hurt, and b) in melee. It does give you exactly twice as many HP as vigor, but only if your target fails the save and doesn't kill you. It's great if your some kind of gish already, but otherwise it's suicide (IMO).

It's far safer to just share vigor with your psicrystal, turning it into an HP battery with share pain. Share pain is another great way for a psion to help with healing. It lasts for many hours. So invigorate yourself and your psicrystal, then each of you share the pain of one of your allies. Very efficient, but purely preventative.
DreamerInsane
11-21-07, 01:32 PM Please. I know that the trick is controversial and could easily be ruled either way, which is why I said that it can be assumed to work in the OP.

The reason why I posted the thread is to get advice on how to make such a psion tolerable and, if possible, fun for the rest of the party, too.

One idea I had was to make the Psion a healer - that way his Warlock-y doesn't-burn-outness will benefit the party, too. It's just that (with quite a few of the psionic buffs being self-only) I'm lost on other ideas to make the character function in a party.

Battlefield control, perhaps?
Lycanthromancer
11-21-07, 01:53 PM Body fuel is bad, bad, bad. If the duration was better (say, 10 min/lvl or 1 hour/lvl), it might be tolerable, but taking all-day ability burn just for a few rounds' worth of questionable benefit SUCKS, AND BADLY.

I would suggest taking animal affinity if you want to try to pull the trick, however, as this could cover up some of the ickiness of what you're proposing if your DM says the trick works.

I'm glad I have a bit of pull around here (and that Wizard Random apparently recognizes it, unlike some, and despite a few faux pas here and there), but WR goes a bit overboard. I only have 25 levels of bad ass. :D

In a burst of brilliance, the aforementioned Magic of Incarnum works wonders when tossed on a character. Unlike most multiclassing, MoI can actually be a very large benefit for a spellcasting or manifesting character. It segues really, really well.
calronmoonflower
11-21-07, 09:02 PM which is why I said that it can be assumed to work in the OP.

BLASPHEMY, BURN THE HERETIC. :rolleyes:

The answer quite simply is to logically explain to the dungeon master both why it doesn't work and why it shouldn't be allowed to work.
InkBlot
11-21-07, 10:25 PM The thing is, if your DM will allow you to use the Body Fuel + Strongheart Vest combo, then at that point you're playing a totally different game. It'll be more like you're co-DMing and running a DMPC. In order to not break the game with that combo, you have to hold back all your power and let the other players be the heroes without letting them realize you let them be the heroes. This is also the crux of DMing; letting the players win without letting them realize you let them win. If that's not what you want to get out of this combo, then don't use it.

If you want to get infinite healing out of the combo, or infinite blasting, or something else, then there are better ways to do it. Pact binders from Tome Of Magic (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060303a&page=4) can provide infinite out-of-combat healing starting at 5th level (by binding Beur, Grandmother Huntress). Warlocks of course can blast forever without breaking the game, and are easy to convert to psionics (give them Wild Talent, re-theme the invocations, remove the components, make everything psi-like, and rename it all).
Silverclaw
11-22-07, 10:16 AM the body fuel/stronheart vest is wery powerfull and will easily become too powerfull...
So if your DM alows it to work you schould not abuse the power, by for eksample playing an Elan Psion (nearly indestruclable, especially with inproved Elan resistance)...
But it might still work if you make someting less overpowered with it, I am actually thinking about trying it with a Halfling PsyWar, and i think it might work:D
Wizard Random
11-22-07, 10:51 AM "With great power comes great responsibility"
Silverclaw
11-22-07, 01:00 PM "And with great power comes great possibility for power abusing":P
Sinfire Titan
11-22-07, 01:36 PM The thing is, if your DM will allow you to use the Body Fuel + Strongheart Vest combo, then at that point you're playing a totally different game. It'll be more like you're co-DMing and running a DMPC. In order to not break the game with that combo, you have to hold back all your power and let the other players be the heroes without letting them realize you let them be the heroes. This is also the crux of DMing; letting the players win without letting them realize you let them win. If that's not what you want to get out of this combo, then don't use it.

If you want to get infinite healing out of the combo, or infinite blasting, or something else, then there are better ways to do it. Pact binders from Tome Of Magic (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060303a&page=4) can provide infinite out-of-combat healing starting at 5th level (by binding Beur, Grandmother Huntress). Warlocks of course can blast forever without breaking the game, and are easy to convert to psionics (give them Wild Talent, re-theme the invocations, remove the components, make everything psi-like, and rename it all).

Or learn how to bind Naberius, and try the Psion trick then.
Suspect_Unusual
11-22-07, 10:21 PM Uh... doesn't Naberius the Hound only heal ability damage, not ability BURN or ability DRAIN?

Because Body Fuel works off ability burn.
Salla
11-22-07, 10:33 PM "And with great power comes great possibility for power abusing":P

Power corrupts. Absolute power is pretty neat.
InkBlot
11-22-07, 10:34 PM Or learn how to bind Naberius, and try the Psion trick then.

Naberius only heals ability drain and damage. He doesn't heal ability burn. Only natural healing can fix ability burn. Ability burn can't be healed magically, and supernatural abilities are inherently magical.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DreamerInsane 11-21-07, 09:37 AM	So, if we assume that the Body Fuel+Strongheart Vest trick is ruled to work in group. How do I make a Psion that wouldn't annoy the hell out of my friends by, say, Wgo Whipping everyone with impunity. One thing I'm planning to do, at the very least, is to take Empathic Transfer and Body Adjustment. That way, the cheese will at least keep others from dying, and the party can adventure longer. Also wondering if this should be made into a PsyWar, as those just can't go nova as badly as Psions.
InkBlot 11-21-07, 11:15 AM	If you're really worried about it, then don't use the Strongheart Vest. But Body Fuel deals ability burn, not ability damage, so the Strongheart Vest shouldn't work anyway. At the very least, preventing the ability burn should also prevent gaining any power points. Empathic transfer works better with vigor than with body adjustment, by the way.
DracoPhoenix 11-21-07, 11:22 AM	If you're really worried about it, then don't use the Strongheart Vest. But Body Fuel deals ability burn, not ability damage, so the Strongheart Vest shouldn't work anyway. At the very least, preventing the ability burn should also prevent gaining any power points. Empathic transfer works better with vigor than with body adjustment, by the way. I would have though Empathic Transfer + Empathic Transfer hostile would work better? If you're comfortable starting an encounter with less than full health, that is. (Or a great one if you're an Arch Psion with the touch @ range ability)
Wizard Random 11-21-07, 11:28 AM	I remember a time not so long ago where I (with my supporters) stormed the castle of reason here at the psionics board and insited that the strongheart vest did in fact work with the strongheart vest. The battle was fierce and many brave soldiers on both sides fell, when finally at last I had the enemy commander corned. I however forgot one thing, apparantley Lycan-mancer apparently has 30 levels of bad ass and a diplo check of +100. In the end I was defeated. Long story short unless you have a house rule the strongheart vest will not stop the damage from Body Fuel. I think once upon a time Awaken_DM_golem had a idea to get past it /shrug. Yes in this case it seems you have a houserule backing you up, so the easiest answer is to not take either the vest or body in conjunction with each other. Even I who pays attention and has years of experience with psions still only do "so much" when I game so as not to rip apart the fabric of the multiverse.
Risingdragon145 11-21-07, 11:41 AM	What is this Strongheart Vest? Anyone know what book it is in?
InkBlot 11-21-07, 12:12 PM	The strongheart vest is in Magic Of Incarnum (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050907a). It's a soulmeld; a cross between a magic item and a spell, weaved from the substance of dead souls and souls not yet born. Soulmelds are ephemeral things, not permanent magic items. They're like all-day-spells, but you can reallocate power (essentia points) from one to another on the fly round-to-round. Anyone can learn to shape any soulmeld simply by taking the Shape Soulmeld feat. Every psion is just one feat away from the Strongheart Vest. I would have though Empathic Transfer + Empathic Transfer hostile would work better? If you're comfortable starting an encounter with less than full health, that is. (Or a great one if you're an Arch Psion with the touch @ range ability) As you said, hostile empathic transfer requires you to be a) hurt, and b) in melee. It does give you exactly twice as many HP as vigor, but only if your target fails the save and doesn't kill you. It's great if your some kind of gish already, but otherwise it's suicide (IMO). It's far safer to just share vigor with your psicrystal, turning it into an HP battery with share pain. Share pain is another great way for a psion to help with healing. It lasts for many hours. So invigorate yourself and your psicrystal, then each of you share the pain of one of your allies. Very efficient, but purely preventative.
DreamerInsane 11-21-07, 01:32 PM	Please. I know that the trick is controversial and could easily be ruled either way, which is why I said that it can be assumed to work in the OP. The reason why I posted the thread is to get advice on how to make such a psion tolerable and, if possible, fun for the rest of the party, too. One idea I had was to make the Psion a healer - that way his Warlock-y doesn't-burn-outness will benefit the party, too. It's just that (with quite a few of the psionic buffs being self-only) I'm lost on other ideas to make the character function in a party. Battlefield control, perhaps?
Lycanthromancer 11-21-07, 01:53 PM	Body fuel is bad, bad, bad. If the duration was better (say, 10 min/lvl or 1 hour/lvl), it might be tolerable, but taking all-day ability burn just for a few rounds' worth of questionable benefit SUCKS, AND BADLY. I would suggest taking animal affinity if you want to try to pull the trick, however, as this could cover up some of the ickiness of what you're proposing if your DM says the trick works. I'm glad I have a bit of pull around here (and that Wizard Random apparently recognizes it, unlike some, and despite a few faux pas here and there), but WR goes a bit overboard. I only have 25 levels of bad ass. :D In a burst of brilliance, the aforementioned Magic of Incarnum works wonders when tossed on a character. Unlike most multiclassing, MoI can actually be a very large benefit for a spellcasting or manifesting character. It segues really, really well.
calronmoonflower 11-21-07, 09:02 PM	which is why I said that it can be assumed to work in the OP. BLASPHEMY, BURN THE HERETIC. :rolleyes: The answer quite simply is to logically explain to the dungeon master both why it doesn't work and why it shouldn't be allowed to work.
InkBlot 11-21-07, 10:25 PM	The thing is, if your DM will allow you to use the Body Fuel + Strongheart Vest combo, then at that point you're playing a totally different game. It'll be more like you're co-DMing and running a DMPC. In order to not break the game with that combo, you have to hold back all your power and let the other players be the heroes without letting them realize you let them be the heroes. This is also the crux of DMing; letting the players win without letting them realize you let them win. If that's not what you want to get out of this combo, then don't use it. If you want to get infinite healing out of the combo, or infinite blasting, or something else, then there are better ways to do it. Pact binders from Tome Of Magic (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060303a&page=4) can provide infinite out-of-combat healing starting at 5th level (by binding Beur, Grandmother Huntress). Warlocks of course can blast forever without breaking the game, and are easy to convert to psionics (give them Wild Talent, re-theme the invocations, remove the components, make everything psi-like, and rename it all).
Silverclaw 11-22-07, 10:16 AM	the body fuel/stronheart vest is wery powerfull and will easily become too powerfull... So if your DM alows it to work you schould not abuse the power, by for eksample playing an Elan Psion (nearly indestruclable, especially with inproved Elan resistance)... But it might still work if you make someting less overpowered with it, I am actually thinking about trying it with a Halfling PsyWar, and i think it might work:D
Wizard Random 11-22-07, 10:51 AM	"With great power comes great responsibility"
Silverclaw 11-22-07, 01:00 PM	"And with great power comes great possibility for power abusing":P
Sinfire Titan 11-22-07, 01:36 PM	The thing is, if your DM will allow you to use the Body Fuel + Strongheart Vest combo, then at that point you're playing a totally different game. It'll be more like you're co-DMing and running a DMPC. In order to not break the game with that combo, you have to hold back all your power and let the other players be the heroes without letting them realize you let them be the heroes. This is also the crux of DMing; letting the players win without letting them realize you let them win. If that's not what you want to get out of this combo, then don't use it. If you want to get infinite healing out of the combo, or infinite blasting, or something else, then there are better ways to do it. Pact binders from Tome Of Magic (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060303a&page=4) can provide infinite out-of-combat healing starting at 5th level (by binding Beur, Grandmother Huntress). Warlocks of course can blast forever without breaking the game, and are easy to convert to psionics (give them Wild Talent, re-theme the invocations, remove the components, make everything psi-like, and rename it all). Or learn how to bind Naberius, and try the Psion trick then.
Suspect_Unusual 11-22-07, 10:21 PM	Uh... doesn't Naberius the Hound only heal ability damage, not ability BURN or ability DRAIN? Because Body Fuel works off ability burn.
Salla 11-22-07, 10:33 PM	"And with great power comes great possibility for power abusing":P Power corrupts. Absolute power is pretty neat.
InkBlot 11-22-07, 10:34 PM	Or learn how to bind Naberius, and try the Psion trick then. Naberius only heals ability drain and damage. He doesn't heal ability burn. Only natural healing can fix ability burn. Ability burn can't be healed magically, and supernatural abilities are inherently magical.