Post/Author/DateTime	Post
UCsimplyme 02-06-07, 04:36 PM	I would like to make a psionic character who uses his powers to heal. I want to stick with only 3.5 official materials. In combat, I would use Astral Construct to fight and then use my turns to manifest powers to heal. The powers to choose would obviously come from the life mantle. I figure I could get the most bang for my buck using wild surge (from either wilderor anarchic initiate) with healing touch (thus getting 2 hps + 2 x (wild surge modifier) of hit points out of combat per 1 power point spent. What classes do you think would work best with this? Ardent then go into Anarachic Initiate? Ardent 1 then wilder for access to the Tap Mantle feat? Go all wilder and invest heavily into Expanded Knowledge? What are peoples thoughts?
Nephlite 02-06-07, 05:04 PM	I would like to make a psionic character who uses his powers to heal. I want to stick with only 3.5 official materials. In combat, I would use Astral Construct to fight and then use my turns to manifest powers to heal. The powers to choose would obviously come from the life mantle. I figure I could get the most bang for my buck using wild surge (from either wilderor anarchic initiate) with healing touch (thus getting 2 hps + 2 x (wild surge modifier) of hit points out of combat per 1 power point spent. What classes do you think would work best with this? Ardent then go into Anarachic Initiate? Ardent 1 then wilder for access to the Tap Mantle feat? Go all wilder and invest heavily into Expanded Knowledge? What are peoples thoughts? Why Wilder? Why not Psion or Ardent with Overchannel/Talented. Wilder can't get into Anarchic Initiate till level 13 normally do to Knowledge (planes) skills needed.
Shado 02-06-07, 05:26 PM	Why Wilder? Why not Psion or Ardent with Overchannel/Talented. If you missed it, the idea was to abuse the Wilder's (or AI's) Wild Surge for the free pp. Overchannel requires your to pay the increased cost. Touch of Health isn't very efficient as it is. It's not too bad with some free points though. Another route to look into for a the Psi healer is the Mind Eye PrC Sangehirn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c). Now you're looking at 9th level before you can heal others very effectively, but psionics has always lagged in healing others. The problem for the Wilder is the lack of healing powers on their list. The Adrent/AI path isn't much better given that your plan doesn't begin to work until 8th level when you first gain Wild Surge. Until then, healing others will be very pp intensive. Vigor+Empathic Transfer being the most efficient means to heal others unless you have a source of free pp. (Wild Surge, pp redux. items/feats) Are there other goals for this character aside from healing?
Jaid 02-06-07, 06:50 PM	a 1 level dip into wilder early on could work, possibly.
Scion of Coldshard 02-06-07, 07:41 PM	Feral psychic warrior. Pick up Empathic Transfer as soon as you can, spend a feat to get astral construct, spend all of your other feats getting extra power points or whatever other focus you want to work on. I'd suggest some race with a bonus feat (human or a subspecies of halfling are the two I know offhand). Max out wisdom and if you can you will need both a wisdom boosting item and the torc of power preservation. A monks belt plus inertial armor will keep you from being hit in a fight while you suck off everyones damage. Sure, it still takes until 5th level to be able to heal but the build is fun! Once you hit level 5 at least.
ElyasRavenwood 02-06-07, 07:44 PM	A psionic healer. I am trying to do this now in a new campaign I have just joined. I am playing a 3rd level Erudite. Here are the healing powers I have unearthed List of healing powers 1) Touch of heath Life 2hp=1psp 2) Empathic wound transfer Psychometabolism Heal 2d10 hps Take 1d10 dmg absorb poison or disease. Take on burden of making second save 1 pt ability damage/ caster lvl to yourself 2) From the brink Life Stabilizes 1=1 2) Stygian erasure Psychic warrior Removes 1 negative level augment 2 pps/ 1 additional negative levels 3) Body Adjustment general 5psps=1d12 3) Body purification general 4) Stygian ward Life as death ward 5) Psionic revivify psychometabolism 1 rd of death, raise dead no level loss 5) Restore extremity psychometabolism restore finger hand arm leg or head 6) Restoration psionic Psychometabolism removes ability drain and damage, restores lost levels. 6) Mend wounds Life 55 pts dmg At 3rd and 6th I plan to use the expanded knowledge feat to get touch of health and from the brink. All of the Psychometabolism powers from the Devotion (discipline) list I am hoping to be able to come across adventuring. If I do not find what I want adventuring, I will use the Expanded knowledge + Imprint power stone+ Psychic Reformation, + Erudite ability to ad powers to repertoire. To cherry pick the disciplines. I don’t plan to keep the party on their feet. I expect the cleric to do that. I just want to be able put the cleric back together when necessary, and myself if the cleric isn’t around. Hope this helps. Maby in the end it woll be more efficient to play an egoist with a couple of expanded knowlege feats to cherrry pick the life mantle.
UCsimplyme 02-07-07, 02:50 PM	Are there other goals for this character aside from healing? Truthfully? Not really. I am going to be playing in a marathon game with some friends coming up in a month or so and I wanted to have a couple characters ready. One character type I wanted to have prepared was a healer type (because i suspect that no one will want to play one). My goal was to play a healer type that isn't the standard Cleric/Druid/Favored Soul. I wanted something different....thus psionics. The idea behind the wild surge was indeed to get a better return per power point for healing. Touch of health's return is 1 pp=2 hp. Body adjustment's is an average of like 2.1 to 3.07. With just wild surge +1, you can increase your return on power points to 1 pp= 4 hp (this of course is optimized out of combat where there is no penalty for wild surging). Similarly, the return on Vigor/Empathic transfer is like 2.5 with only a wild surge +1 but jumps up exponentially with a higher wild surge. I settled on an Ardent 10/Sangehirn 10. Here is what it ended up looking like. Feats 1. Mind Over Body 1. Psionic Body 3. Boost Construct 6. Expanded Knowledge (Metaphysical Wp) 9. Psionic Meditation 12. Quicken Power 15. Practiced Manifester 18. Empower Power Mantles 1. Life 1. Guardian 2. Creation 5. Good 18. Conflict Skills Concentration, Heal (Healing Hands Trick), Psicraft (4), Autohypnosis Level/Class/Powers 1. Ardent 1-Touch of Health (Life)/Thicken Skin (Guardian) 2. Ardent 2-Astral Construct (Creation) 3. Ardent 3-Damp Power (Guardian) 4. Ardent 4-From the Brink (Life) 5. Ardent 5-Empathic Transfer (Good) 6. Ardent 6-Dispel Psionics (Guardian)/Metaphysical Weapon 7. Sangehirn 1-Vigor* 8. Sangehirn 2-Body Purification* 9. Sangehirn 3-Body Adjustment* 10. Sangehirn 4-Psionic Revivify* 11. Sangehirn 5-Restore Extremity* 12. Ardent 7-Mend Wounds (Life) 13. Sangehirn 6-Energy Adaptation* 14. Sangehirn 7-Biofeedback* 15. Sangehirn 8-Psionic Restoration* 16. Ardent 8-Planar Embrace (Good) 17. Ardent 9 -Greater Glory (Good) 18. Ardent 10-Spirit of War (Conflict) 19. Sangehirn 9-True Metabolism* 20. Sangehirn 10-Affinity Field* Let me know your thoughts :)
PhaedrusXY 02-07-07, 03:45 PM	If it is allowed, play a Warforged. Psionic Repair Damage is the most efficient form of psionic healing because it automatically scales with your manifester level. You can also share it with your psicrystal (this might be possible with Body Adjustment, but it is debateable) to get double the amount of healing per power point. So by using Share Pain to split your damage with the psicrystal, Empathic Transfer to take someone else's damage (half of which goes to the psicrystal), and Psionic Repair Damage to repair yourself and the psicrystal, you can be reasonably efficient at healing I think. You could use the build you've posted mostly as-is, but you'd need to change the feats around. I'd be tempted to use Anarchic Initiate for Wild Surge, however.
UCsimplyme 02-07-07, 08:56 PM	A couple of things: 1) I would essentially lose three feats with the WF (one for not being human, another for my body, and one for my psicrystal) unless I went Psion and then I would lose one feat and have to spend feats on expanded knowledge to pick up all the powers that the mantles are giving me access to. 2) I would lose the ability to DIRECTLY heal another. So healing would always require manifesting two powers and since the purpose was to heal others...I just don't see it as being that efficient. 3) The healing available from Psionic repair isn't really that good. The healing to power point ratio varies from 4.8 unaugmented at low levels to 3.65 fully augmented at 20. If I don't augment it at level 20, you get a maximum return of 11 points of healing per power point (5.58 when you calculate in empathic transfer). Compare that with Mend wounds which is 5 to 1 which heals others or damages undead (more versatile). With Mend woulds no second power is needed and it heals large amounts in combat. The repair beats it out on the power point to healing ratio ONLY when it is done unaugmented (3d8 +20 for 2d10 healing). If you want to augment empathic transfer to heal more wounds, it goes up by even more. All of this isn't even looking at the power of Touch of Health used with a Wild Surge which has the whopping healing ratio of 14 points of health to 1 power point (used out of combat of course) with pain to the caster (with empathic transfer). I just don't see the WF as being a viable option. Tough choices across the board.
PhaedrusXY 02-07-07, 10:13 PM	If you're throwing in Wild Surge, you can get 3d8+22 for 1 power point with Psionic Repair Damage (assuming a +2 Surge). You also heal your Psicrystal for the same amount for free. Combined with Share Pain to split the damage between you, that is an average of 71 points of self-healing for a single power point. (Plus one (Wild Surge +2) earlier in the day for Share Pain). The slow/expensive part will be taking damage from someone else via Empathic Transfer. However, it augments well. With a Torc of Power Preservation and a +2 Wild Surge, you can heal 4d10 for one power point. You take half of this, which can easily be healed via Psionic Repair Damage as described above. Yes, this works best for slow, out of combat healing. For in-combat healing, you're going to need to use something else. However, for slow, out of combat healing, I think it is pretty good. If you have Schism, you could use it to manifest the Psionic Repair Damage and your normal action to manifest augmented Empathic Transfers for in-combat healing. I don't know what you're talking about when you say you'll lose a feat "for your body". You don't have to take any of the X Body feats with a Warforged. You can opt for the standard body, which is basically like leather armor. As a psion, you don't worry about the ASF. Taking Adamantine Body is a good idea I think, but since this build will be somewhat feat starved, it might not be worth it.
UCsimplyme 02-08-07, 12:56 AM	I don't know what you're talking about when you say you'll lose a feat "for your body". You don't have to take any of the X Body feats with a Warforged. You can opt for the standard body, which is basically like leather armor. As a psion, you don't worry about the ASF. Taking Adamantine Body is a good idea I think, but since this build will be somewhat feat starved, it might not be worth it. As for the extra feat...yes, I was talking about a WF body feat. I don't see a reason to play a warforged and be restricted from wearing good armor. To end all this foolish hypothetical conjecture about which method heals others the best, I did a comparison of each of the healing methods. To generate healing for others here is what the breakdown is: Assumptions: Each manifestation is augmented by a Wild Surge 4 and a Torc of Power Preservation. Healing Via Empathic Transfer/Vigor -Manifest Vigor: 30 Temporary Hit Points for 1 power point -Manifest Empathic Transfer: 10d10 damage transferred for 2 power points (55 pts avrg) Total power point cost: 3 Total hit points healed on average: 30 Hit point/power point Ratio: 10 to 1 Healing Via Empathic Transfer/Psionic Repair Damage -Manifest Empathic Transfer: 10d10 damage transferred for 2 power points (55 pts avrg) -Manifest Psionic Repair Damage: 5d8+24 for 2 power points (46.5 pts avrg) Total power point cost: 4 Total hit points healed on average: 46.5 Hit point/power point Ratio: 11.65 to 1 Healing Via Touch of Health -Manifest Touch of Health: 12 hit points for 1 power point Total power point cost: 1 Total hit points healed on average: 12 Hit point/power point Ratio: 12 to 1 Even in this extreme example where each of the powers are utilized out of combat and with minimum point usage, Touch of Health comes out on top. In combat, where you will want to output the most amount of healing per spell, Mend Wounds has the best output and is able to be used offensively as well. The key to all this of course is Wild Surge. I am still working on a doable build with Wild Surge. Keep the feedback coming.
Scion of Coldshard 02-08-07, 10:01 AM	You did not take into account the chance of losing pp for surging. Your results for which is best from those three comparisons will not change, but the cost to benefit ratio will change. Oh, and at level 11 the build I suggested above plus the torc will have: Manifest Empathic Transfer: 10d10 (avg 55) Total pp cost: 6 Hp:pp ratio: 9.167:1 This is almost two and a half times as efficient as your current best plan ;)
The_Shaman 02-08-07, 10:08 AM	I think there was a healing-based PrC somewhere in the articles... Was it the sangehirn?
UCsimplyme 02-08-07, 10:11 AM	You did not take into account the chance of losing pp for surging. Your results for which is best from those three comparisons will not change, but the cost to benefit ratio will change. Oh, and at level 11 the build I suggested above plus the torc will have: Manifest Empathic Transfer: 10d10 (avg 55) Total pp cost: 6 Hp:pp ratio: 9.167:1 This is almost two and a half times as efficient as your current best plan ;) How can you even say that 9.167 to 1 is better than any of those other suggstions? The other 3 are 10, 11 and 12 to 1 respectively which beats out 9.1 in each case. Are you crazy? It is true that I would lose power points equal to my wilder level....which depending on my build, will most likely not be a whole lot. Good feedback. Keep it coming.
PhaedrusXY 02-08-07, 11:42 AM	Healing Via Empathic Transfer/Psionic Repair Damage -Manifest Empathic Transfer: 10d10 damage transferred for 2 power points (55 pts avrg) -Manifest Psionic Repair Damage: 5d8+24 for 2 power points (46.5 pts avrg) Total power point cost: 4 Total hit points healed on average: 46.5 Hit point/power point Ratio: 11.65 to 1If you're going for maximal out of combat efficiency, why did you bother to augment Psionic Repair Damage? You are MUCH better off just manifesting the unaugmented version repeatedly, and only Wild Surging for +1 (with the Torc). This makes each manifestation heal 3d8+21 for a single power point. You also did not take into account the fact that all damage and healing is shared with the psicrystal. Your example is flawed, and far below optimal. Here is a more explicit version of what I typed in my earlier post: I'm only using a 1 or 2 point Surge, to avoid Enervation. 1) Manifest Share Pain at the beginning of the day (1 power point) 2) Manifest Empathic Transfer: 4d10 damage transferred for 1 power points (2 point Surge) (22 pts avg, psion takes 5.5, psicrystal takes 5.5) 3) Repeat step 2 five times. In total, 132 points healed. Psion and psicrystal both take 33 damage. 6 Power Points spent. -Manifest Psionic Repair Damage: 3d8+21 for 1 power points (34.5 pts avg applied equally to both psion and psicrystal, so 69 points total) Total power point cost: 1 132 points healed in total, for 7 power points. This is 18.86 per power point, not including the 1 power point spent for Share Pain. Even if you include that, it is still 16.5 per power point.
UCsimplyme 02-08-07, 12:31 PM	If you're going for maximal out of combat efficiency, why did you bother to augment Psionic Repair Damage? You are MUCH better off just manifesting the unaugmented version repeatedly, and only Wild Surging for +1 (with the Torc). This makes each manifestation heal 3d8+21 for a single power point. You also did not take into account the fact that all damage and healing is shared with the psicrystal. Your example is flawed, and far below optimal. Here is a more explicit version of what I typed in my earlier post: I'm only using a 1 or 2 point Surge, to avoid Enervation. 1) Manifest Share Pain at the beginning of the day (1 power point) 2) Manifest Empathic Transfer: 4d10 damage transferred for 1 power points (2 point Surge) (22 pts avg, psion takes 5.5, psicrystal takes 5.5) 3) Repeat step 2 five times. In total, 132 points healed. Psion and psicrystal both take 33 damage. 6 Power Points spent. -Manifest Psionic Repair Damage: 3d8+21 for 1 power points (34.5 pts avg applied equally to both psion and psicrystal, so 69 points total) Total power point cost: 1 132 points healed in total, for 7 power points. This is 18.86 per power point, not including the 1 power point spent for Share Pain. Even if you include that, it is still 16.5 per power point. Wild surging cannot reduce the cost of a power below it's base cost. The ability reads that the bonus points from Wild Surging are for augmenting only. With the torc, you could reduce your cost to 2 power points per manifest, not 1. I am not interested in how much you can heal yourself or your psicrystal. I want to know what the cost is going to be to recoup your hit points after a transfer. Likewise, empathic transfer can't be reduced below 2 power points with a wild surge, only augmented. With all of those repetitions, you will spend 14 power points, not 7 and thus have a power point return of 9.42...Amazing! Almost exactly what I came up with before. (Edit...With a wild surge, it would be higher because you wouldn't have to manifest the empathic transfer as many times.)
Scion of Coldshard 02-08-07, 01:04 PM	How can you even say that 9.167 to 1 is better than any of those other suggstions? The other 3 are 10, 11 and 12 to 1 respectively which beats out 9.1 in each case. Are you crazy? Careful with the crazy talk there, we are only trying to help you. ;) The answer was in the post that you quoted. It was even 'in' the quote that you had in your post! Whenever you use your surge you have a chance of enervating and losing a good amount of pp. At level 11 and wild surging for +4 you have a 20% chance of losing 11 pp. This means that, on average, your 12 point heal will cost you 3.2 pp instead of 1. 12/3.2 = 3.75 hp healed per pp spent. 9.167 is 2.444 times as much per pp spent and so it is 2.444 times as efficient overall. The other two examples you put up are even less efficient. After all that you also have to take into account a 20% chance of missing a round of combat, if you are using this in combat. A single round of not doing anything can be very, very bad indeed :(
UCsimplyme 02-08-07, 02:12 PM	Careful with the crazy talk there, we are only trying to help you. ;) The answer was in the post that you quoted. It was even 'in' the quote that you had in your post! Whenever you use your surge you have a chance of enervating and losing a good amount of pp. Np, I didn't mean to come off mean. One thing I would suggest is that people should go back and read the Wilder's Wild Surge again. It says that you lose a number of power points equal to your wilder level. In my new build (which I post below), I have a wild surge of +3 and a wilder level of 1 (2 levels are coming from the Anarchic Initiate and those say that the psychic enervation works identically to the Wilder entry). This means that when I wild surge and fail my role, i lose 1 power point. Ingenious, huh? Lastly, the irony is that none of these combinations provide the best out of combat psionic healing interestingly enough. The best psionic healing using only power points comes from an Ardent casted True Metabolism spell. At level 20, without wild surge or items, you will heal 2000 hit points over 20 minutes (100 hit points per power point spent). With wild surge 2 and extend power, you will heal 4000 hit points over 40 minutes with only spending 20 power points (200 hit points per power point spent). Here is the build that I finally settled on: Feats 1. Practiced Manifester (Ardent) 1. Psionic Body 3. Tap Mantle (Good) 6. Mind Over Body 9. Psionic Meditation 12. Boost Construct 15. Expanded Knowledge (Dimension Hop) 18. Extend Power Mantles 1. Life 1. Guardian 2. Creation 5. Conflict Level/Class/Powers 1. Ardent 1-Touch of Health (Life)/Thicken Skin (Guardian) 2. Ardent 2-Astral Construct (Creation) 3. Wilder 1-Energy Ray 4. Ardent 3-Damp Power (Guardian) 5. Ardent 4-Empathic Transfer (Good) 6. Ardent 5-Dispel Psionics (Guardian) 7. Sangehirn 1-Vigor* 8. Sangehirn 2-Body Purification* 9. Sangehirn 3-Biofeedback* 10. Anarchic 1-Psionic Revivify (Life) 11. Anarchic 2- Mend Wounds (Life) 12. Anarchic 3- Psionic Restoration (Life) 13. Anarchic 4- Planar Embrace (Good) 14. Anarchic 5- Mind Over Energy (Guardian) 15. Anarchic 6- True Metabolism (Life) 16. Anarchic 7- Spirit of War (Conflict) 17. Sangehirn 4- Share Pain, Forced* 18. Sangehirn 5- Empathic Feedback* 19. Sangehirn 6- Affinity Field* 20. Sangehirn 7- Timeless Body* Highlights -18 extra hit points (because of my feats/mantles) -Tons of healing options from level 1 to level 20. -Only lose 1 power point when I fail my wild surge role -For Combat, I have a decent Astral Construct, a low powered energy ray, and Dispel psionics. -For Buffs, I have Thicken Skin, Biofeeback (castable on others), Vigor (castable on others), True Metabolism (castable on others), Spirit of War, and Empathic Feedback. -For Damage Prevention, I have Mind over Energy for myself and Damp Powers to help others. -Fast healing 2 and DR 3/- for self when Psionically focused. I never have to waste powers on healing myself in between combat at higher levels. My major frustration was that I lose two manifest levels worth of power points (only have 280 base at level 20 rather than 343; down 63 points). Do you think wild surge 3 is worht it for 63 points? Any other feedback would be most welcome :) Thanks for all the insight thus far!
PhaedrusXY 02-10-07, 02:28 PM	Sorry, I had totally missed that you couldn't pay for the base cost by using Wild Surge. :embarrass
kelvinaw273 02-10-07, 08:50 PM	What might work is a alternate Psion discipline and a few new powers, perhaps. There seems to be a problem in that psionics is biased toward replacing arcane rather than divine magic. Touch of Healing works OK ... but it is only available in the Life Mantle. Otherwise it is Empathic Transfer which is very hit or miss.
UCsimplyme 02-11-07, 02:21 AM	What might work is a alternate Psion discipline and a few new powers, perhaps. There seems to be a problem in that psionics is biased toward replacing arcane rather than divine magic. Touch of Healing works OK ... but it is only available in the Life Mantle. Otherwise it is Empathic Transfer which is very hit or miss. Expanded knowledge does a good job of pulling Touch of Health into another class's power list.
Shado 02-15-07, 02:11 PM	New options abound! :dancin: Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) Educated Wilder is huge here, and if you really want to focus on healing (as in all of it) Mantled Wilder will let you take all the powers in the Life Mantle and abuse the Wild Surge + Touch of Health power point ratio. Even better (don't know why I didn't think of this before) is to take Hidden Power at 1st level. Add one 1st level power from any list to your known powers. You have to take it at 1st level, and can only take it once, but grab Touch of Health and you're already up and running. :angel: Educated Wilder will slowly add you powers known. Oh, want to stick to your original idea and make use of Astral Construct? Mantled Wilder for the Creation Mantle, grants one Ectopic Form feat for free and places the 6 powers associated with it in your list. (Careful here... you have to take all the creation powers as soon as they're available. Fortunately, there's nothing stopping you from Psychic Reformation-ing some of them away.) Mantled Wilder is a bit questionable, depending an what you want in your build, but Educated is an absolute must... you don't even have to take Hidden Power for Touch of Health. Your fist granted Expand Knowledge from Educated comes in at 5th, which is limited to 1st level power anyway. Just a whole new world of possibilities! :evillaugh
UCsimplyme 02-15-07, 06:52 PM	Yeah, as soon as that article went up I just had to laugh. I worked so hard trying to work a good psionic healer with wild surge out and instead it was literally handed to me. When I read the Hidden Talent feat again I thought the same thing. It really is a good deal for a first level feat. Given the new options, I would probably grab hidden talent at 1st for touch of life and go with the educated substitution feature to pick up astral construct and a couple other key powers (like psionic revivify and mend wounds). Lots of new options all around :)
Chrae77 03-14-07, 04:33 AM	What about the new Mind's Eye: Expanded Egoist Class? It gives you the Life mantle of an ardent, at 5th level by giving up your bonus feat. Sounds pretty alright to me.
Wharin 03-14-07, 08:35 AM	I was playing an Ardent a few months ago and here is how I filled the healer role Relevant Mantles: Life, Good, Pain and Suffering Relevant Powers: Empathetic Transfer, Hostile Empathetic Transfer, Mend Wounds, Vigor. Relevant Feats: Improved Toughness. Race: Dwarf Basically the strategy worked like this: If someone got seriously hurt i would take all their ouchies on my self (its important to have as much hit points as possible), then send it on the enemy with the Hostile Empathetic Transfer to not only heal myself, but also damage my enemies. Otherwise I would just Mend Wounds, but if I can control the situation, I'll just take the gamble and shift pain around like an En Kor.