How well balanced are the psionic classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How well balanced are the psionic classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fleck
06-04-07, 06:31 AM Well, the title says it. How well are the psionic classes balanced against the mundane classes (barbarian, fighter, rogue, etc.)? And how well are they balanced against each other?

I'm asking because I want to get rid of the vancian magic system and the swiss army knife feel most spellcasting classes have, and the psionic classes are the obvious choice to look for inspiration.

So please enlighten me with your vast experience. :)
hovnarr
06-04-07, 07:21 AM I'm not sure psionics is less "swiss army knife" than divine or arcane magic. In fact, it probably packs more utility than either of them. But generally, it's more balanced than arcane and divine magic.

Psychic Warriors are very well balanced, and have been compared to the rogue by some, in terms of power and versatility. Others think of it like a more narrow cleric, but to each his own.

If you're only using the SRD, then psions and wizards are typically on par, with the psion being slightly stronger mid level (5-15) and the wizard being slightly stronger at very high levels (15+). If correctly built, psions can be every bit as strong as clerics or druids in the 5-10 level range, though they are decidedly weaker in the early levels. Wilders are even harder to build if you want to be competitive, but they can be equal to Sorcerors at least. Soulknife is generally considered a weak class, perhaps even weaker than the monk in a pure SRD environment.

If you use all the splat books available, divine and arcane beat psionics hands down. They are simply much more powerful if you get to use all full progression PrCs etc.

It's entirely possible to drop all arcane and divine magic and go psionics only in a campaign. Permanently dying will be more of an issue if you take that route however.
Eikre
06-04-07, 07:22 AM The Psion and Psychic warrior as excellent specimens of how to:

A: Run a magic system without introducing to much of an artificial feel.
B: Run a magic system without spells or powers so obviously abusable.
C: Run a fighter who self-buffs as a major class component, thus becoming much more able to compete at high levels and reducing absolute dependency on equipment.

The Wilder and Soulblade aren't as good. They're fun to play, but mechanically weak. I would rather have them take the hit than the more generic two, and I would rather them be sub-par than have them be overly good, but it's unfortunate that two good ideas are so completely ousted by all the rest.

Complete Psionic has a few classes. The Ardent is a good extension on the idea of disciplines while still being solid, and the Lurk takes the lessons of the Psychic Warrior one step away from Greatsword and one step closer to Dagger.

The closest you'll ever get to broken in this system is and Elan who focuses on metamorphosis- but that's just an aspect of combining Polymorph-likes with rare creature types, or a Psion/Archaic Initiate/Illithid Slayer, who has a level 19 Caster Level and 16 BAB, plus a few other abilities... And even then, he's manageable.
turalisj
06-04-07, 07:39 AM Go see the big stickied topic up top for all you need to know on why psionics isn't broken.

For one, none of the psionic classes have good Bab, it's either average or bad.
InkBlot
06-04-07, 11:59 AM I'm asking because I want to get rid of the vancian magic system and the swiss army knife feel most spellcasting classes have, and the psionic classes are the obvious choice to look for inspiration.

Psions have far less of a swiss-army-knife feel than wizards, clerics, or druids. A single psion can't do everything a wizard can. The psion has a limited number of powers, while the wizard is only limited by what he prepared that day (and not even that if he leaves some slots open). Only shaper psions can approach the utility of a wizard, and even then the shaper will be lacking many powers a wizard would consider essential.

A psion only has 36 powers at 20th level. A sorcerer knows 42 spells at 20th level. A psion can augment some powers to achieve effects similar to a higher level version of that power. A sorcerer can swap out any lower level spell and replace it with any other higher level spell.

Wilders and psychic warriors are even more limited than the psion. Wilders only ever know ELEVEN powers total, but manifest them stronger than anybody else, and have okay BAB/HD/Skills too. Psychic warriors only fight, and only have enough powers to master one fighting style.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fleck 06-04-07, 06:31 AM	Well, the title says it. How well are the psionic classes balanced against the mundane classes (barbarian, fighter, rogue, etc.)? And how well are they balanced against each other? I'm asking because I want to get rid of the vancian magic system and the swiss army knife feel most spellcasting classes have, and the psionic classes are the obvious choice to look for inspiration. So please enlighten me with your vast experience. :)
hovnarr 06-04-07, 07:21 AM	I'm not sure psionics is less "swiss army knife" than divine or arcane magic. In fact, it probably packs more utility than either of them. But generally, it's more balanced than arcane and divine magic. Psychic Warriors are very well balanced, and have been compared to the rogue by some, in terms of power and versatility. Others think of it like a more narrow cleric, but to each his own. If you're only using the SRD, then psions and wizards are typically on par, with the psion being slightly stronger mid level (5-15) and the wizard being slightly stronger at very high levels (15+). If correctly built, psions can be every bit as strong as clerics or druids in the 5-10 level range, though they are decidedly weaker in the early levels. Wilders are even harder to build if you want to be competitive, but they can be equal to Sorcerors at least. Soulknife is generally considered a weak class, perhaps even weaker than the monk in a pure SRD environment. If you use all the splat books available, divine and arcane beat psionics hands down. They are simply much more powerful if you get to use all full progression PrCs etc. It's entirely possible to drop all arcane and divine magic and go psionics only in a campaign. Permanently dying will be more of an issue if you take that route however.
Eikre 06-04-07, 07:22 AM	The Psion and Psychic warrior as excellent specimens of how to: A: Run a magic system without introducing to much of an artificial feel. B: Run a magic system without spells or powers so obviously abusable. C: Run a fighter who self-buffs as a major class component, thus becoming much more able to compete at high levels and reducing absolute dependency on equipment. The Wilder and Soulblade aren't as good. They're fun to play, but mechanically weak. I would rather have them take the hit than the more generic two, and I would rather them be sub-par than have them be overly good, but it's unfortunate that two good ideas are so completely ousted by all the rest. Complete Psionic has a few classes. The Ardent is a good extension on the idea of disciplines while still being solid, and the Lurk takes the lessons of the Psychic Warrior one step away from Greatsword and one step closer to Dagger. The closest you'll ever get to broken in this system is and Elan who focuses on metamorphosis- but that's just an aspect of combining Polymorph-likes with rare creature types, or a Psion/Archaic Initiate/Illithid Slayer, who has a level 19 Caster Level and 16 BAB, plus a few other abilities... And even then, he's manageable.
turalisj 06-04-07, 07:39 AM	Go see the big stickied topic up top for all you need to know on why psionics isn't broken. For one, none of the psionic classes have good Bab, it's either average or bad.
InkBlot 06-04-07, 11:59 AM	I'm asking because I want to get rid of the vancian magic system and the swiss army knife feel most spellcasting classes have, and the psionic classes are the obvious choice to look for inspiration. Psions have far less of a swiss-army-knife feel than wizards, clerics, or druids. A single psion can't do everything a wizard can. The psion has a limited number of powers, while the wizard is only limited by what he prepared that day (and not even that if he leaves some slots open). Only shaper psions can approach the utility of a wizard, and even then the shaper will be lacking many powers a wizard would consider essential. A psion only has 36 powers at 20th level. A sorcerer knows 42 spells at 20th level. A psion can augment some powers to achieve effects similar to a higher level version of that power. A sorcerer can swap out any lower level spell and replace it with any other higher level spell. Wilders and psychic warriors are even more limited than the psion. Wilders only ever know ELEVEN powers total, but manifest them stronger than anybody else, and have okay BAB/HD/Skills too. Psychic warriors only fight, and only have enough powers to master one fighting style.