I have a few questions about using Time Hop. [Archive] - Wizards Community

I have a few questions about using Time Hop. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
celestialkin
06-16-07, 11:52 PM Hey guys.

One of my characters just leveled, and I am thinking of taking Time Hop as one of his new powers. I am planning to use it for two unusual purposes, so I want to run these ideas by you to see if they would work, and how they would work if I could use Time Hop in these ways.

a) If an ally is at negative HPs, could I use this to keep him alive in stasis until the power ends?

Since my adventuring party is completely made up of casters, we have suffered quite a few deaths during this campaign. In particular, one of our party members has died a bit too many times already, and I do not feel like paying to resurrect him again. Therefore, I want to know if I could use this power to keep him from dying next time he hits negative HPs until the battle is over and our cleric has the time to heal him.

A few of the questions I have about this are:

1. Could he, or any of my party members, choose to purposefully fail the will save for avoiding this power?

2. Could they also choose to purposefully fail the DC 15 Wisdom checks needed to return from this power early?

b) Can I ready an action, and use it to temporarily remove a cleric's holy symbol when she draws it out?

This particular character is an intelligent sentient deathless Psion, who knows he will probably be facing some pretty high-level clerics in the very near future. About a month ago someone in the Monster's Lair suggested readying a spell or energy ray type power to blast a cleric's holy symbol when she/he draws it to rebuke me, or my undead horde, since clerics need a holy symbol in order to use this ability. Since this power might already be useful for keeping my party members alive (see above), I figured that I might also be able to use it for this purpose, instead of wasting another power slot on energy ray.

My questions are:

1. How would I work this out in combat? According to the power's entry in the XPH it works both on people (who get a will save) and objects up to 300lbs, but it doesn't mention how I resolve this if it's an object in someone's possession. It does not mention what what I would roll to hit against in this situation, or what kind of save the object, or it's owner would get (if any).

2. When the holy symbol comes back would it appear in the same spot it was before, or would it appear in it's owner's hand regardless of where she currently is?

3. Could this tactic also be used for other items, such as a fighter's weapon, or a Wizard's wand?

In addition, what other unique ways could I use this power? I rather not use it against enemies, since Death Urge is a much more effective will save power, which I already have in my powers list.

Thanks in advance for any help.
InkBlot
06-17-07, 12:08 AM a) Yes. Although the dying character isn't in stasis. He's in the future.

1. A willing character doesn't have to fail a save to be affected. Unconscious characters are always considered willing.

2. The language "can attempt" indicates that the character can choose not to roll a Wisdom check, and simply arrive in the future at precisely the moment you wanted. An unconscious character can't attempt anything, and so will always appear at exactly the time you sent him to.

b) Attended objects can never be affected, unless the power specifically states they can be.

1. Out of combat works just like in combat. You can't target attended objects.

2. If you could target attended objects (and you can't), then the object would arrive in the future in the same place it was, relative to some imaginary universal frame of reference. If the cleric moved since you manifested the power, then the holy symbol would drop to the ground.

3. No, because you can't target attended objects.

Time hop is very useful for any kind of obstruction. Doors, fences, window panes, chains, ropes, et cetera.
celestialkin
06-17-07, 12:36 AM b) Attended objects can never be affected, unless the power specifically states they can be.

Do you know where this is stated and described? I am confident you are probably right about this, but I just want to read up on this to get a better understanding of the rules.

edit: Oh, and what kind of AC do I have to roll against if I want to hit said holy symbol with a power like energy ray? I might just have to take it.
InkBlot
06-17-07, 09:31 AM On zapping the holy symbol with a ray: that would fall under sundering. PHB p158, a carried or worn object's AC is 10 + the wearer's Dex + the item's size modifier. A holy symbol is likely to be a fine or tiny object.

Note that you can only sunder with a melee attack. There's the Ranged Sunder feat in Complete Warrior, but that feat is poorly written. Taken literally, it only allows you to do a ranged sunder with arrows.

Edit: I'm afraid I can't exactly remember the page that mentions attended objects never being targeted unless the spell/power says so. I'll see if I can't look it up later.
Lycanthromancer
06-17-07, 02:26 PM Actually, if a power affects objects, and doesn't specify unattended objects, you can affect an attended object. Sorry, InkBlot. I have to disagree.

Attended objects use their own saves (if magical, especially intelligent) or their wielder's saves (whichever is higher).

So, yes, you can use time hop to affect the cleric's holy symbol. You'd be better off with the energy ray, however, since clerics have one of the highest Will saves in the game (good Will + good Wisdom = great save).

As far as using energy ray, I'd say you'd use the cleric's touch AC + the holy symbol's size modifier (likely Diminutive). Since clerics normally wear heavy armor, it's not likely that they'll have a high touch AC, so you'll likely be able to make the attack most of the time.

Also, other good uses of time hop include "opening" treasure chests (Look Ma! No box!), bypassing traps and locked doors, and hopping out creatures with low saves that are nonetheless vital parts of the battle (such as that mounted fighter's horse over there). It's great for battlefield control, as you can drop chandeliers on your enemies' heads, collapse rope bridges, and remove the shackles that bind the captive busty blonde beauty the trogolodytes are about to sacrifice to the volcano god.
AntiDjinn
06-17-07, 10:09 PM Hopping out a cleric's holy symbol is as hard as, or harder than hopping out the cleric with his symbol. An attended object always saves as the creature holding it, or at its own bonus if it is higher. If the holy symbol is enchanted or intelligent, it may be easier to hop the wielder and let him take the item along.

If you do hop out an object, it is by definition, unattended while hopped out. So it is not entitled to additional saves if it is not aware or alive.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 06-16-07, 11:52 PM	Hey guys. One of my characters just leveled, and I am thinking of taking Time Hop as one of his new powers. I am planning to use it for two unusual purposes, so I want to run these ideas by you to see if they would work, and how they would work if I could use Time Hop in these ways. a) If an ally is at negative HPs, could I use this to keep him alive in stasis until the power ends? Since my adventuring party is completely made up of casters, we have suffered quite a few deaths during this campaign. In particular, one of our party members has died a bit too many times already, and I do not feel like paying to resurrect him again. Therefore, I want to know if I could use this power to keep him from dying next time he hits negative HPs until the battle is over and our cleric has the time to heal him. A few of the questions I have about this are: 1. Could he, or any of my party members, choose to purposefully fail the will save for avoiding this power? 2. Could they also choose to purposefully fail the DC 15 Wisdom checks needed to return from this power early? b) Can I ready an action, and use it to temporarily remove a cleric's holy symbol when she draws it out? This particular character is an intelligent sentient deathless Psion, who knows he will probably be facing some pretty high-level clerics in the very near future. About a month ago someone in the Monster's Lair suggested readying a spell or energy ray type power to blast a cleric's holy symbol when she/he draws it to rebuke me, or my undead horde, since clerics need a holy symbol in order to use this ability. Since this power might already be useful for keeping my party members alive (see above), I figured that I might also be able to use it for this purpose, instead of wasting another power slot on energy ray. My questions are: 1. How would I work this out in combat? According to the power's entry in the XPH it works both on people (who get a will save) and objects up to 300lbs, but it doesn't mention how I resolve this if it's an object in someone's possession. It does not mention what what I would roll to hit against in this situation, or what kind of save the object, or it's owner would get (if any). 2. When the holy symbol comes back would it appear in the same spot it was before, or would it appear in it's owner's hand regardless of where she currently is? 3. Could this tactic also be used for other items, such as a fighter's weapon, or a Wizard's wand? In addition, what other unique ways could I use this power? I rather not use it against enemies, since Death Urge is a much more effective will save power, which I already have in my powers list. Thanks in advance for any help.
InkBlot 06-17-07, 12:08 AM	a) Yes. Although the dying character isn't in stasis. He's in the future. 1. A willing character doesn't have to fail a save to be affected. Unconscious characters are always considered willing. 2. The language "can attempt" indicates that the character can choose not to roll a Wisdom check, and simply arrive in the future at precisely the moment you wanted. An unconscious character can't attempt anything, and so will always appear at exactly the time you sent him to. b) Attended objects can never be affected, unless the power specifically states they can be. 1. Out of combat works just like in combat. You can't target attended objects. 2. If you could target attended objects (and you can't), then the object would arrive in the future in the same place it was, relative to some imaginary universal frame of reference. If the cleric moved since you manifested the power, then the holy symbol would drop to the ground. 3. No, because you can't target attended objects. Time hop is very useful for any kind of obstruction. Doors, fences, window panes, chains, ropes, et cetera.
celestialkin 06-17-07, 12:36 AM	b) Attended objects can never be affected, unless the power specifically states they can be. Do you know where this is stated and described? I am confident you are probably right about this, but I just want to read up on this to get a better understanding of the rules. edit: Oh, and what kind of AC do I have to roll against if I want to hit said holy symbol with a power like energy ray? I might just have to take it.
InkBlot 06-17-07, 09:31 AM	On zapping the holy symbol with a ray: that would fall under sundering. PHB p158, a carried or worn object's AC is 10 + the wearer's Dex + the item's size modifier. A holy symbol is likely to be a fine or tiny object. Note that you can only sunder with a melee attack. There's the Ranged Sunder feat in Complete Warrior, but that feat is poorly written. Taken literally, it only allows you to do a ranged sunder with arrows. Edit: I'm afraid I can't exactly remember the page that mentions attended objects never being targeted unless the spell/power says so. I'll see if I can't look it up later.
Lycanthromancer 06-17-07, 02:26 PM	Actually, if a power affects objects, and doesn't specify unattended objects, you can affect an attended object. Sorry, InkBlot. I have to disagree. Attended objects use their own saves (if magical, especially intelligent) or their wielder's saves (whichever is higher). So, yes, you can use time hop to affect the cleric's holy symbol. You'd be better off with the energy ray, however, since clerics have one of the highest Will saves in the game (good Will + good Wisdom = great save). As far as using energy ray, I'd say you'd use the cleric's touch AC + the holy symbol's size modifier (likely Diminutive). Since clerics normally wear heavy armor, it's not likely that they'll have a high touch AC, so you'll likely be able to make the attack most of the time. Also, other good uses of time hop include "opening" treasure chests (Look Ma! No box!), bypassing traps and locked doors, and hopping out creatures with low saves that are nonetheless vital parts of the battle (such as that mounted fighter's horse over there). It's great for battlefield control, as you can drop chandeliers on your enemies' heads, collapse rope bridges, and remove the shackles that bind the captive busty blonde beauty the trogolodytes are about to sacrifice to the volcano god.
AntiDjinn 06-17-07, 10:09 PM	Hopping out a cleric's holy symbol is as hard as, or harder than hopping out the cleric with his symbol. An attended object always saves as the creature holding it, or at its own bonus if it is higher. If the holy symbol is enchanted or intelligent, it may be easier to hop the wielder and let him take the item along. If you do hop out an object, it is by definition, unattended while hopped out. So it is not entitled to additional saves if it is not aware or alive.