I have a question [Archive] - Wizards Community

I have a question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mirron
05-14-07, 08:03 PM Okay, my character might be getting a total of 40 levels. The first 20 will be Psion (Telepath), so I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions for a primarily Telepathic Psion as far as the other 20 levels go. Anything else is welcomed, but I'm not sure exactly what other classes would work, aside from maybe Thrallherd.
Tempest Stormwind
05-14-07, 08:28 PM Okay, my character might be getting a total of 40 levels. The first 20 will be Psion (Telepath), so I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions for a primarily Telepathic Psion as far as the other 20 levels go. Anything else is welcomed, but I'm not sure exactly what other classes would work, aside from maybe Thrallherd.

More telepath?

We seriously need more information if we're to be much more help beyond that.

(Note that all* psionic PrCs involve the loss of at least one manifester level, so the strongest possible psion is, unsurprisingly, a psion.)

* Except the broken anarchic initiate and the serious-drawback subverted psion
Mirron
05-14-07, 08:31 PM Well, it could be other things, I just prefer Telepath. What sort of information? And I meant like Telepath-like, not neccesarily more Telepath powers, just something that would be useful as a Telepath. Since I have so many levels, I should be able to access most classes.
Tempest Stormwind
05-14-07, 08:36 PM Well, it could be other things, I just prefer Telepath. What sort of information? And I meant like Telepath-like, not neccesarily more Telepath powers, just something that would be useful as a Telepath. Since I have so many levels, I should be able to access most classes.

For starters, consider the minimum guidelines for posting on the Character Optimization forums:

1) What you want to get out of your character
2) What books are allowed
3) What houserules are available
4) The rest of your party
5) The style of campaign

...you know, the sort of information we'd need to answer your question.

All we know is that you're getting 40 levels to play with. We don't know if you have a pre-existing character you're tacking it on, or if this is a new epic character.

Furthermore, as it IS an epic character, you won't find much help here. Very few people on the psionics board play epic.
Mirron
05-14-07, 08:58 PM Oh, sorry. I guess this would be better suited there, but I was going for more for classes that are Telepath like, not neccesarily really powerful, or fully optimized. So, I was hoping someone here could direct me to a class that deals with Telepathy, not neccesarily making him fully optimized. Since you posted guidelines, I will use them.

1) I'd like my character to be very Telepathic, with strength in Clairsentience and Psychokinesis, and average power in the fields of Metacreativity and Psychoportation. Psychometabolism is not part of my plans. So, Telepathy > Clairsentience = Psychokinesis > Metacreativity = Psychoportation > Psychometabolism. This is mechanical wise. Play wise, I'd just like him to be fun, I'm just looking for ideas, I guess.
2) I can use the Core DnD books, as well as the basic Psionic book. Unearthed Arcana is also allowed, and information on the official site.
3) There aren't any odd houserules that I know of. We opperate on semi-transparency, with Spell/Power Resistance, but spells and powers affect what they say they will, nothing else.
4) Not very important, right now, but they are: 2 Elven Rangers, 1 Halfling Wizard, 1 Halfling Rogue, 1 Elven Druid, and 1 Human Cleric.
5) The campaign is loosely based off of Dragonlance, but it basically allows whatever you can get.
Rageheart
05-15-07, 12:42 AM By 20th Level Psion you could easily have all the powers from all the disciplines as powers known by hook or crook (Research or Churgery)... so #1 should be a factor of which powers you choose to use.

on a tangent... which would be a stronger Manifester, a 40th Lv Psion, or a 20th Lvl Psion with a racial/templated LA of +20?

I admit knowing jack all about Epic rules.
crizhII
05-15-07, 06:25 AM 3) There aren't any odd houserules that I know of. We opperate on semi-transparency, with Spell/Power Resistance, but spells and powers affect what they say they will, nothing else.

You should pick up at least one level of Ardent for the Magic Mantle.

What about Metamind? The problem with that is usually a big hit to ML but that isn't really a problem for you.

How about Ardent6/Slayer10/Telepath10/Anarchic Initiate4/Metamind10 ?

With Practiced Manifester you'd have ML's of 19 and 23, PP's of 506+bonusPP's and Font of Power.

Not too shabby...

Or maybe Ardent2/Telepath26/Metamind10/Anarchic Initiate2.

You could focus on Telepath and have an ML of 37 or put the prestige classes towards Ardent and have an Ardent ML of 13 and have 7th level powers from your Mantle lists.

I recommend Magic, Creation and Freedom as pretty good Mantles for someone dipping into Ardent for increased flexibility.

I like Ardent2(13)/Telepath26(30)/Metamind10/AI2.

415+bonux PP's, lots of feats, about a dozen powers a Telepath would have to EK, Chaotic Surge, full Transparency and Font of Power.

Sweet. :cool:
Zylo_Drizzt
05-15-07, 10:47 AM telepath 20 / mindbender 10 / psion uncarnate 10
CrimsonDeath
05-15-07, 04:33 PM Beguiler 4/Psion 6/Cerebremancer 30?
Mirron
05-15-07, 06:36 PM I'm glad that some people have ideas. Thank you.
Lycanthromancer
05-15-07, 09:25 PM Since psions don't gain pp after level 20, I'd think you'd get the most out of this build if you took psion 20 // wilder 10/anarchic initiate 10, with Practiced Manifester and some feats that increase your surging ability (it's epic; make your own). That way, you could have gobs of power points, and since you're an epic character, you could take epic feats to increase your psion manifester level (and surge to increase it, too). You could wild surge on all your powers, and if you had epic surge, just guess what your ML will be? Also, I do believe there's a class out there somewhere that allows you to gain MLs in two classes simultaneously. Start taking that after level 40.

It's worth a shot, but since I don't play epic, I couldn't say if this is optimal or not.

[edit] Better yet, do some juggling with Psychic Reformation, and take the wilder levels first; that way, you'll get lots of bonus feats (which will be epic-level, since - guess what? - you'll be epic. That, and you'll get a higher BAB that way.

Whatever you do, though, don't take wilder after level 11 or so. The chance to enervate increases closer and closer to 100%, and unless you get immunity to enervation, it's not worth it.
Mirron
05-15-07, 09:36 PM Increased PP is a somewhat concern of mine. If I do get to 40, then all the extra PP from other classes should allow me to manifest just about any power I want. Again, thank you.
Lycanthromancer
05-15-07, 09:44 PM Remember, when you enervate, you only lose pp equal to your wilder level, so if you're only wilder 10/PrC 10, you only lose 10 pp for an enervation.
Mirron
05-15-07, 09:49 PM I won't forget. Wilder was one thing I considered, as well as quite a few others. This will be very tricky to do this correctly.
Zylo_Drizzt
05-16-07, 11:03 AM psion 20 // wilder 10/anarchic initiate 10

I didn't even think of power points but this is how I would do it. But I would say 10 psion 10 mindbender 10 wilder and 10 anarchic initiate you could swap out mind bender with psion uncarnate if you like or thrall herd. You could also switch out the mind bender for the presige class that helps you to keep your power points easier in the xph

If you go with mind bender or thrall herdthen you gain permanent thralls. If you go uncarnate then you get the ability to be incorpereal all the time. if you go with the last one you gain great endurance with your PP.

I would go with human or Elan maybe psiforged or kalashtar.
Lycanthromancer
05-16-07, 01:33 PM Of course, there's always Wilder 5/Anarchic Initiate 10/Ghostbreaker 5 // Psion 20. Full manifester progression on both counts, and you won't be enervating away all of your power points.
CrimsonDeath
05-16-07, 06:36 PM What'll you do about SR? Even with Practiced Manifester, Wild Surge, and Greater Power Penetration, you'll still be a couple of levels behind a full manifester...
crizhII
05-16-07, 07:03 PM What'll you do about SR? Even with Practiced Manifester, Wild Surge, and Greater Power Penetration, you'll still be a couple of levels behind a full manifester...

I like Psionic Mastery. In this instance though you want Improved Overchannel.
CrimsonDeath
05-17-07, 03:12 AM Hmm... Does Talented work with Epic Overchannel?

Might want to grab Epic Power Penetration as well...
Taluron
05-17-07, 08:52 AM Beguiler 4/Psion 6/Cerebremancer 30?

While I'm personally an advocate of the Cerebremancer (two, in different campaigns)...

Unless you can get the DM to house-rule the epic progression for Cerebremancer (which would be the same as the epic progression for Mystic Thuerge) don't go over 10 levels in Cerebremancer.

Epic Cerebremancer by WoTC would give one manifester/caster-level for each class every other level plus 1 per 6 levels epic bonus feats.

Compare this to taking another level in your starting classes every other level. There is nothing to recommend Epic levels in Cerebremancer (or Mystic Thuerge).

If the DM will allow one manifester/caster-level in each of the qualifying classes per level of epic cerebremancer, then it is worth taking. Otherwise avoid it.

There is a house-ruled version of the Epic Cerebremancer here:
http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-579548.html

Note that if you read the thread, I was originally opposed to this version. The other posters in the thread changed my mind and I now agree with this version. But it is still a house-rule and so must DM approved.
CrimsonDeath
05-18-07, 05:02 PM Epic Cerebremancer by WoTC would give one manifester/caster-level for each class every other level plus 1 per 6 levels epic bonus feats.

[...]

If the DM will allow one manifester/caster-level in each of the qualifying classes per level of epic cerebremancer, then it is worth taking. Otherwise avoid it.

Didn't know that was how it worked. I figured it would progress both classes every level-- y'know, something that would actually be worth doing.
The_Geek
05-21-07, 01:15 PM Psion 3/Wiz 3/CM 14, with Psiotheurge feat gives you lvl 9 in both, with an effective caster level of 34.

Once you hit level 9 telepath, the first question on your mind should be, which body will work best for me? War-troll? Gold Dragon?

Seriously, the abuses possible when any caster/psion hits 9 are just too ludicrous to enumerate here.
Taluron
05-24-07, 09:13 AM Didn't know that was how it worked. I figured it would progress both classes every level-- y'know, something that would actually be worth doing.

That is what changed my mind to agreeing with the others.

Look at the Mystic Thuerge epic progression. Ugh!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mirron 05-14-07, 08:03 PM	Okay, my character might be getting a total of 40 levels. The first 20 will be Psion (Telepath), so I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions for a primarily Telepathic Psion as far as the other 20 levels go. Anything else is welcomed, but I'm not sure exactly what other classes would work, aside from maybe Thrallherd.
Tempest Stormwind 05-14-07, 08:28 PM	Okay, my character might be getting a total of 40 levels. The first 20 will be Psion (Telepath), so I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions for a primarily Telepathic Psion as far as the other 20 levels go. Anything else is welcomed, but I'm not sure exactly what other classes would work, aside from maybe Thrallherd. More telepath? We seriously need more information if we're to be much more help beyond that. (Note that all* psionic PrCs involve the loss of at least one manifester level, so the strongest possible psion is, unsurprisingly, a psion.) * Except the broken anarchic initiate and the serious-drawback subverted psion
Mirron 05-14-07, 08:31 PM	Well, it could be other things, I just prefer Telepath. What sort of information? And I meant like Telepath-like, not neccesarily more Telepath powers, just something that would be useful as a Telepath. Since I have so many levels, I should be able to access most classes.
Tempest Stormwind 05-14-07, 08:36 PM	Well, it could be other things, I just prefer Telepath. What sort of information? And I meant like Telepath-like, not neccesarily more Telepath powers, just something that would be useful as a Telepath. Since I have so many levels, I should be able to access most classes. For starters, consider the minimum guidelines for posting on the Character Optimization forums: 1) What you want to get out of your character 2) What books are allowed 3) What houserules are available 4) The rest of your party 5) The style of campaign ...you know, the sort of information we'd need to answer your question. All we know is that you're getting 40 levels to play with. We don't know if you have a pre-existing character you're tacking it on, or if this is a new epic character. Furthermore, as it IS an epic character, you won't find much help here. Very few people on the psionics board play epic.
Mirron 05-14-07, 08:58 PM	Oh, sorry. I guess this would be better suited there, but I was going for more for classes that are Telepath like, not neccesarily really powerful, or fully optimized. So, I was hoping someone here could direct me to a class that deals with Telepathy, not neccesarily making him fully optimized. Since you posted guidelines, I will use them. 1) I'd like my character to be very Telepathic, with strength in Clairsentience and Psychokinesis, and average power in the fields of Metacreativity and Psychoportation. Psychometabolism is not part of my plans. So, Telepathy > Clairsentience = Psychokinesis > Metacreativity = Psychoportation > Psychometabolism. This is mechanical wise. Play wise, I'd just like him to be fun, I'm just looking for ideas, I guess. 2) I can use the Core DnD books, as well as the basic Psionic book. Unearthed Arcana is also allowed, and information on the official site. 3) There aren't any odd houserules that I know of. We opperate on semi-transparency, with Spell/Power Resistance, but spells and powers affect what they say they will, nothing else. 4) Not very important, right now, but they are: 2 Elven Rangers, 1 Halfling Wizard, 1 Halfling Rogue, 1 Elven Druid, and 1 Human Cleric. 5) The campaign is loosely based off of Dragonlance, but it basically allows whatever you can get.
Rageheart 05-15-07, 12:42 AM	By 20th Level Psion you could easily have all the powers from all the disciplines as powers known by hook or crook (Research or Churgery)... so #1 should be a factor of which powers you choose to use. on a tangent... which would be a stronger Manifester, a 40th Lv Psion, or a 20th Lvl Psion with a racial/templated LA of +20? I admit knowing jack all about Epic rules.
crizhII 05-15-07, 06:25 AM	3) There aren't any odd houserules that I know of. We opperate on semi-transparency, with Spell/Power Resistance, but spells and powers affect what they say they will, nothing else. You should pick up at least one level of Ardent for the Magic Mantle. What about Metamind? The problem with that is usually a big hit to ML but that isn't really a problem for you. How about Ardent6/Slayer10/Telepath10/Anarchic Initiate4/Metamind10 ? With Practiced Manifester you'd have ML's of 19 and 23, PP's of 506+bonusPP's and Font of Power. Not too shabby... Or maybe Ardent2/Telepath26/Metamind10/Anarchic Initiate2. You could focus on Telepath and have an ML of 37 or put the prestige classes towards Ardent and have an Ardent ML of 13 and have 7th level powers from your Mantle lists. I recommend Magic, Creation and Freedom as pretty good Mantles for someone dipping into Ardent for increased flexibility. I like Ardent2(13)/Telepath26(30)/Metamind10/AI2. 415+bonux PP's, lots of feats, about a dozen powers a Telepath would have to EK, Chaotic Surge, full Transparency and Font of Power. Sweet. :cool:
Zylo_Drizzt 05-15-07, 10:47 AM	telepath 20 / mindbender 10 / psion uncarnate 10
CrimsonDeath 05-15-07, 04:33 PM	Beguiler 4/Psion 6/Cerebremancer 30?
Mirron 05-15-07, 06:36 PM	I'm glad that some people have ideas. Thank you.
Lycanthromancer 05-15-07, 09:25 PM	Since psions don't gain pp after level 20, I'd think you'd get the most out of this build if you took psion 20 // wilder 10/anarchic initiate 10, with Practiced Manifester and some feats that increase your surging ability (it's epic; make your own). That way, you could have gobs of power points, and since you're an epic character, you could take epic feats to increase your psion manifester level (and surge to increase it, too). You could wild surge on all your powers, and if you had epic surge, just guess what your ML will be? Also, I do believe there's a class out there somewhere that allows you to gain MLs in two classes simultaneously. Start taking that after level 40. It's worth a shot, but since I don't play epic, I couldn't say if this is optimal or not. [edit] Better yet, do some juggling with Psychic Reformation, and take the wilder levels first; that way, you'll get lots of bonus feats (which will be epic-level, since - guess what? - you'll be epic. That, and you'll get a higher BAB that way. Whatever you do, though, don't take wilder after level 11 or so. The chance to enervate increases closer and closer to 100%, and unless you get immunity to enervation, it's not worth it.
Mirron 05-15-07, 09:36 PM	Increased PP is a somewhat concern of mine. If I do get to 40, then all the extra PP from other classes should allow me to manifest just about any power I want. Again, thank you.
Lycanthromancer 05-15-07, 09:44 PM	Remember, when you enervate, you only lose pp equal to your wilder level, so if you're only wilder 10/PrC 10, you only lose 10 pp for an enervation.
Mirron 05-15-07, 09:49 PM	I won't forget. Wilder was one thing I considered, as well as quite a few others. This will be very tricky to do this correctly.
Zylo_Drizzt 05-16-07, 11:03 AM	psion 20 // wilder 10/anarchic initiate 10 I didn't even think of power points but this is how I would do it. But I would say 10 psion 10 mindbender 10 wilder and 10 anarchic initiate you could swap out mind bender with psion uncarnate if you like or thrall herd. You could also switch out the mind bender for the presige class that helps you to keep your power points easier in the xph If you go with mind bender or thrall herdthen you gain permanent thralls. If you go uncarnate then you get the ability to be incorpereal all the time. if you go with the last one you gain great endurance with your PP. I would go with human or Elan maybe psiforged or kalashtar.
Lycanthromancer 05-16-07, 01:33 PM	Of course, there's always Wilder 5/Anarchic Initiate 10/Ghostbreaker 5 // Psion 20. Full manifester progression on both counts, and you won't be enervating away all of your power points.
CrimsonDeath 05-16-07, 06:36 PM	What'll you do about SR? Even with Practiced Manifester, Wild Surge, and Greater Power Penetration, you'll still be a couple of levels behind a full manifester...
crizhII 05-16-07, 07:03 PM	What'll you do about SR? Even with Practiced Manifester, Wild Surge, and Greater Power Penetration, you'll still be a couple of levels behind a full manifester... I like Psionic Mastery. In this instance though you want Improved Overchannel.
CrimsonDeath 05-17-07, 03:12 AM	Hmm... Does Talented work with Epic Overchannel? Might want to grab Epic Power Penetration as well...
Taluron 05-17-07, 08:52 AM	Beguiler 4/Psion 6/Cerebremancer 30? While I'm personally an advocate of the Cerebremancer (two, in different campaigns)... Unless you can get the DM to house-rule the epic progression for Cerebremancer (which would be the same as the epic progression for Mystic Thuerge) don't go over 10 levels in Cerebremancer. Epic Cerebremancer by WoTC would give one manifester/caster-level for each class every other level plus 1 per 6 levels epic bonus feats. Compare this to taking another level in your starting classes every other level. There is nothing to recommend Epic levels in Cerebremancer (or Mystic Thuerge). If the DM will allow one manifester/caster-level in each of the qualifying classes per level of epic cerebremancer, then it is worth taking. Otherwise avoid it. There is a house-ruled version of the Epic Cerebremancer here: http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-579548.html Note that if you read the thread, I was originally opposed to this version. The other posters in the thread changed my mind and I now agree with this version. But it is still a house-rule and so must DM approved.
CrimsonDeath 05-18-07, 05:02 PM	Epic Cerebremancer by WoTC would give one manifester/caster-level for each class every other level plus 1 per 6 levels epic bonus feats. [...] If the DM will allow one manifester/caster-level in each of the qualifying classes per level of epic cerebremancer, then it is worth taking. Otherwise avoid it. Didn't know that was how it worked. I figured it would progress both classes every level-- y'know, something that would actually be worth doing.
The_Geek 05-21-07, 01:15 PM	Psion 3/Wiz 3/CM 14, with Psiotheurge feat gives you lvl 9 in both, with an effective caster level of 34. Once you hit level 9 telepath, the first question on your mind should be, which body will work best for me? War-troll? Gold Dragon? Seriously, the abuses possible when any caster/psion hits 9 are just too ludicrous to enumerate here.
Taluron 05-24-07, 09:13 AM	Didn't know that was how it worked. I figured it would progress both classes every level-- y'know, something that would actually be worth doing. That is what changed my mind to agreeing with the others. Look at the Mystic Thuerge epic progression. Ugh!