Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ElyasRavenwood 02-28-07, 11:05 AM	I was looking through Unearthed Arcana. On Page 153 I noticed a Spell point system. When I looked on page 155 I noticed on table 5-5 spell point costs. They appear to exactly match the psionic strength point cost of each psionic power by level. I noticed the progression of the psps per day of a Psion compared to the Spell points per day of a Cleric Druid Wizard, were very close, not quite the same. Has anyone compared the psionic system with the spell point system in Unearthed Arcana?
Thomar_of_Uointer 02-28-07, 11:47 AM	I was looking through Unearthed Arcana. On Page 153 I noticed a Spell point system. When I looked on page 155 I noticed on table 5-5 spell point costs. They appear to exactly match the psionic strength point cost of each psionic power by level. I noticed the progression of the psps per day of a Psion compared to the Spell points per day of a Cleric Druid Wizard, were very close, not quite the same. Has anyone compared the psionic system with the spell point system in Unearthed Arcana? UA's spell point system does not use augmentation, a major balancing factor of psionics. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#augment
Tempest Stormwind 02-28-07, 12:03 PM	This has actually been discussed time and time again on the Myth threads and similar topics. Just duct-taping on a spellpoint system to spells that aren't designed for it produces... problems, to say the least. An analogy I used on another thread is moving from an old howitzer to a modern bazooka, but keeping the shells. Even assuming it appears to fit, it's likely to blow up in your face.
Wotc_Mark 02-28-07, 12:50 PM	Actually if you look at the spell point system from UA it has a built in augmentation system. --M
Tempest Stormwind 02-28-07, 01:04 PM	Actually if you look at the spell point system from UA it has a built in augmentation system. --M True. But only for damaging effects. Discrete spells, such as the Dominate chain, have no augments. Damage spells were already weak pre-spell-points, with the true power of the game coming from discrete spells (i.e. give me Color Spray over Magic Missile any day of the week). A common concern people have about psionics is "but they can manifest 9th level powers all day long!". This isn't as big a problem as people think, since an augmented power is almost always worse than a power of the equivalent level. This isn't the case in spells, where it truly IS a problem. Imagine having a boatload of Otto's Irresistable Dance spells available, or the TRULY broken ones like Polymorph Any Object or Gate. None of those spells are hindered by an augmentation system -- they continue to scale with the wizard's caster level, WHILE reaping the freeform flexibility of a power point system. Essentially, it further nerfs evokers while turning anyone who uses nondamaging spells (i.e. any intelligent spellcaster past level 9 or so, or any divine spellcaster worth his salt) into a powerhouse. As I said above: Implementing spell points depends on changing the spells to account for it.
ElyasRavenwood 03-02-07, 09:50 AM	Thank you for your thoughts. I have been poking around and thinking of ways of increasing the pool of psionic powers to choose from. I have the EXP the CP, Hyper consciousness, and Untapped Potential and yes I am still rooting around for more powers. I am not a fan of psionic x. I did however notice in secrets of sarlona, a page where they converted some spells over to their psionic equivalencies. At first I kicked and sulked, because I wanted good new materiel, I wanted good psionic crunch, not warmed over arcane crunch, which had been cut and pasted. I noticed Tenser's Floating disc. It made perfect sense as a psionic power. I then wondered if there could be other powers. Wizards have an ever-expanding pool of spells to choose from. And Erudite, on the other hand has a limited selection. (I am playing two erudite characters one is 13th level and the other 4th level.). I then thought that instead of re-inventing the wheel, why not steal someone else’s wheel (one that has presumably been play tested)? The trick to this would be finding spells like Tesnser’s floating disc, that by themselves make perfect sense as a psionic power. For that matter, I think some spells with the force descriptor, might have a psionic feel to them. I was planning to play a force mage a while ago, (eventually 5 levels wizard, 5 levels force missile mage, 5 levels Argent savant, 5 levels wizard). Well here is this list of force spells I realize that most of these spells do not have a “psionic feel” to them, some might. And some like Mage armor and inertial armor, or magic missile and concussion blast, already have equivalencies. Force spells Players hand book =ph 2nd Edition 4 volume Spell Compendium= sc Relics& Rituals I = RRI Mongoose Ultimate Arcane spell book uas Dragon Magazine = dm Spells 0) Level spells Mage hand (ph) 1) Level spells Gauntlet (SC) glove of force on caster-2d4 dmg no acid heat etc p397 Mage Armor (ph) +4 armor Magic missile (ph) 1) 1d4+1 3) 2d4+1 5) 3d4+1 7) 4d4+1 9) 5d4+1 Oil skin (SC) keeps person or thing dry in the rain or waves. P634 Push (SC) 50 lbs/lvl move reflex save move 1’ level p718 Shield (ph) +4 ac Tensers floating disc (ph) 3’ diameter disc 100 lba /lvl Unseen servant (ph) 2) level spells Battering ram (SC) Spell duplicate ring or ram P 76 Belsham’s mace (sc) 1d8+2 your thaco to hit. 2 rounds P76 Decastave (SC staff of force 1d6 p222 Dolomar’s force wave (RRI) 10’+1”/lvl radius burst- hemisphere of force pushing P 68 Emerald planes (DM) 1 5’sq plane /2 levels. Small wall of force p 79 Ethereal blast (RRI) only incorporeal or ethereal 1d0/lvl to 5d10 rflx sv 1/2 pg 82 Force wave (sc) 1d4 impact damage Ocean wave Rf save pushed back p388 Flying fist (SC) 1d2 pts grab small objects push or slap –1 attack roll p384 Levitate (ph) Quimby’s enchanting gourmet (sc) Unseen servant who cooks and cleans p721 Sky hook (sc) hook of force can be in mid air immobile 30 tons p824 Whirling blade (sc) 1d8 +1 dmg of long sword, ignores armor rng touch p1012 3) level spells Airbolt (sc) 1d6/lvl under water, half in air p30 Blast of force (uas) cone 1d4/lvl max 10d4 L size smaller fail save knocked downP22 cloak of warding (sc) the cloak absorbs 3d4+1/lvl points of damage p149 Improved magic missile (sc) same as magic missile except 10 missiles p454 Invisible mail (sc) like mage armor plate mail p 465 Manyjaws (sc) 1d4 per jaw save 1/2 1 jaw/lvl p544 Otiluke’s force umbrella (sc) 20’ diameter dome force over caster+4 sv magic+6 ac p640 Zala’s force buckler (sc) +2 ac fire cold electricity –1 per die stops mm p1043 4) level spells Bigby’s force sculpture (sc) shape a plane of force into an object bucket etc P82 Carligard’s claw 1d4/round claw melee attack start then does not missp117 Chain missile (dm) 1 missile /2 lvl max 10- hits then goes to 2nd target p79 Elude Blow (sc) Causes blows to miss, 20’ radius 1 creature / level p305 Force lash (sc) Rflx save or 6d4 pts 2nd Rflx save or flat footed, -2 ac p388 Cuts through barrier spells 3rd level or less. Giedorn grappling grasp(sc) vs bigbys spells, grapple creature weapon etc. p398 Mordenkainen’s force missiles (sc) magic missile 2d4 (no sv) +1/ lvl concussion (sv)p595 Othnal’s spectral dagger (sc) 1d4+3 dmg floating dagger of force melee attack, 2 rd p636 Otiluk’s resilient sphere (ph) 1’ diameter/level 1min /lvl Whisper blade (sc) 1d8 +1 blade force/shadow wields to hit p1014 5) level spells Bigby’s superior force sculpture (sc) force objects swords a wagon etc P85 Mage armor mass (dm) 1 creature /level mage armor p80 Shard storm (dm) 20’ burst 3d6 damage rflx save 1/2 1 burst /round / caster lvl p 80 Sighing chain (sc) ac 6 21 hp chain. Wrapped automatically –2 attack etc p841 Suspension (sc) levitate 1000/lvl duration 1dy/lvl +1d4 p910 Telekinesis (ph) Tenser’s destructive resonance (sc) object struck is disintegrated sv.1d6/2lvl p928 Thultuan thrust (sc) 2d4+5d4 impact; hurled 80’ in line P936 Wall of force (ph) 10’ sq/lvl 1 rd /lvl 6) level spells Barrior reaver (sc) opens antimagic shell, prismatic sphere, wall spells, 1 rd p74 Gauntlet of teeth (sc) 6d4 rfx save 1/2 dur 6rds whirling oval disembodied teeth p397 Otiluke’s orb of containment (sc)orb 6’ in diameter, used for containing substances p641 Repulsion (ph) 7) Level spells Blood stars (sc) 7 force stars ranged touch attack 1d4 if cut explode for 2d6 p100 Force cage (ph) barred 20’ cube or solid walled cube 10’ Mordenkainen Sword (ph) atck=lvl+int mod 4d6+3 dmg 8) level spells Bigby’s most excellent force sculpture (sc) force object-sailing ship siege machine p99 Otiluk’s telekinetic sphere (ph) 1’ diameter sphere move sphere 9 level None found Spells from this list that already have a psionic equivalency Mage armor- Inertial armor Magic missle- concussion blast Shield- force screen Levitate-levitate psionic Cloak of warding- intellect fortress Shard storm- Crystal storm Telekenesis- Telekenetic force, telekinetic manouver, telekinetic thrust Wall of force- wall of force They may not be perrect fits Spells that have a magic feel in my opinion Unseen servant Many Jaws Gauntlet of teeth Blood stars Mordenkainen sword Quinby’s enchanting gormet Spells that could go either way Bigby’s force sculptures Bigby’s hands Spells that have a psionic feel to them. Gauntlet Battering ram Flying fist Sky hook Blast of force Otiluke’s spheres I am sure there is more stuff out there What about the Enchantment charm school, and what about the illusionary school, particularly the “figments?”
ElyasRavenwood 03-02-07, 09:56 AM	The list of spells I just posted, were a list of force spells I had researched for a wizard I was thinking of playing who specialized in force spells. I never played the wizard. I just thought the list might be useful starting point to consider if any spells with the "force descriptor" would seem to be good candidates for conversion, because they "feel" like a psionic power, and not a wizard spell.
EvilVegan 03-02-07, 10:38 AM	That's well and good, but whats that got to do with this thread? Shouldn't you start a new thread about conversion of force spells?
wolfie-kun 03-02-07, 11:01 AM	The only way I'd ever use this system is with the variant on the spell-point system that actually fatigues and then exhausts casters who've gotten too low on spell points, and changing the system so you have to pay the equivalent caster level regardless. Not that it would help that much on the really broken ones, but it means that those aren't available at such an easy price the whole damn day. I'd probably put caster level penalties when fatigued or exhausted due to lack of spell points, too.
ElyasRavenwood 03-02-07, 11:27 AM	You are right evil Vegan, I suppose I should post a new thread.