I'm a DM new to Psionics [Archive] - Wizards Community

I'm a DM new to Psionics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ancalimohtar
05-29-07, 08:44 AM I'm starting a campaign soon, and because I'm a CO regular, I'm familiar with almost all 3.5 stuff, I'm very comfortable in choosing what to allow and what to ban. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with psionics, and interest has been shown in playing psionic PCs. Given what I've heard about CPsi, should I ban it? Or should I just have a long list of houserules ready? What's this board's take on how to handle this book?
Ecalsneerg
05-29-07, 08:45 AM The two stickied threads tell you all you need to know.
Bacris
05-29-07, 08:59 AM I strongly recommend the New DM / Player's Guide to Psionics (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D486266).

:)
hovnarr
05-29-07, 09:51 AM Nice to see a familiar face from the CO boards get into psionics! Now,

Given what I've heard about CPsi, should I ban it? Or should I just have a long list of houserules ready? What's this board's take on how to handle this book?

The stickied FAQ adresses this concern, but I'd like to add an important point: Psychic Reformation. This allows you to incorporate core, SRD psionics first while you can take your time with CPsi and see what you like. Then, if you decide to incorporate it, the psionic characters can always use Psychic Reformation to reform their characters with any new feats and powers you decide to allow.

The only thing you should probably consider from the get go is the optionl CPsi errata that affects core psionic stuff, such as your take on Astral Construct. See the FAQ for details on this.
Archangel62
05-29-07, 10:01 AM The only thing I can think of is just make sure that you know the basics of manifesting and that the nova power of a psionic character is great. Beyond that, have fun, oh and since MiC has psionic stuff on the treasure tables random loot is now easier to work with.
ancalimohtar
05-29-07, 10:10 AM Nice to see a familiar face from the CO boards get into psionics!I'd been meaning to for a while, along with other systems. For example, I feel left out of Tome of Battle discussions (what's this about a Crusader?) even though I've read through some of the book.

The stickied FAQ adresses this concern, but I'd like to add an important point: Psychic Reformation. This allows you to incorporate core, SRD psionics first while you can take your time with CPsi and see what you like. Then, if you decide to incorporate it, the psionic characters can always use Psychic Reformation to reform their characters with any new feats and powers you decide to allow.Is this like the PHB2 retraining rules?

The only thing you should probably consider from the get go is the optionl CPsi errata that affects core psionic stuff, such as your take on Astral Construct. See the FAQ for details on this.I read through Tempest's FAQ, as well as the thread for new DMs linked above. At this point, I really am appealing to the experience of this board for some straight up answers--what is reasonable? Should I just ignore the errata on astral constructs or incorporate them? Also, are they really listed as optional/variant rules? Or are they meant to supercede XPH rules? In the end, should I pretend the CP was never printed? Or is it worth the effort to read another (seemingly crappy) book?

And don't worry, I know the inherent consequences of the differences between mana-based casting systems and Vancean spell-slot systems. Novas I can handle. ;)
Bacris
05-29-07, 10:23 AM In my experience, Astral Construct is not a problem power. And that's from having a kineticist with Expanded Knowledge using it from about 12th level on. Didn't have Boost Construct, but I had templated, decently-constructed Astral Constructs that were tailored for the appropriate situation.

They look good on paper, but the damage that they do just isn't that good.

What they ARE good at is battlefield control - soaking up damage, grappling targets, bullrushing enemies, etc. So they can be great for tactical use, but not so much to actually kill.

I consider it fine to leave as-written in the XPH. Or, if you do want to impose a limit, only limit non-Shapers - let the shaper have as many as he wants. He's giving up other options to be good at creating, don't shaft him in that regard.

Psychic Reformation is like retraining, but a lot faster and a lot more limited in what it can do. Retraining can redo levels, feats, skills, etc, etc - psychic reformation can do skills, feats, and powers. That's it.

CPsi does have some good stuff - I recommend checking out the Ardent, the Lurk, the Erudite, the Soulbow, and some of the powers and feats. Most of the rest of it can be ignored, at least in my opinion.
hovnarr
05-29-07, 10:32 AM Is this like the PHB2 retraining rules?

Pretty much, so it's a moot point if you already use them.

what is reasonable? Should I just ignore the errata on astral constructs or incorporate them?

Yes, that is reasonable. Only allowing one AC at a time is unreasonable. However:
1) When I play a psion myself, I usually find that one AC at a time is sufficient but that's because I rarely use them as a default answer and more as a specialized tool (for handling certain undead for instance). A more dedicated concept (like the constructor PrC) would suffer a lot from the nerf however.
2) As a DM, I house rule a general limitation on summons/hirelings/cohorts/companions/familiars/whatever, such that no character may control more than 4 such entities at a time so as not to stall game play too much (it gets bad when every character is a party in itself). This means part of the reason for the AC nerf is already moot to me.

Also, are they really listed as optional/variant rules? Or are they meant to supercede XPH rules?

Meant to supercede, as is normally the case when a later edition comes out with an update. However, if you don't allow the update, you're expected to play under unupdated rules. I think that's the best way to approach it: not as optional rules, not as errata, but as an update.

As for personal opinions on these updates:

1) AC nerf = bad = don't use it
2) DR for inst. creation effects = strange and unnecessary rules exception. Only use if you nerf arcane/divine effects in a similar manner for some reason.
3) Soulknife clarification = use it
4) Updated DC scaling on energy powers = use it
5) Hostile Empathic Transfer: needs some clarification if not nerfing, but CPsi goes too far I think. Use your discretion for this one.
6) Dimension Door augments = use it if you use CPsi... personally I see no reason to arbitrarily adding "nifty" augments to powers that work well as is.
InkBlot
05-29-07, 12:02 PM Unlike retraining, psychic reformation allows you to tailor your powers and feats 10 minutes before you head into battle. The power is still usefull and relevant in a game which allows retraining. There is a heavy XP cost for psychic reformation, and of course the opportunity cost of learning psychic reformation instead of another power.

Applying Damage Reduction to powers which deal piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage makes too much sense not to use, and balances out powers which would otherwise be too good. If DR didn't apply, then why would you ever take energy ray (1d6 fire/cold/electric/sonic dmg, close ray, SR/PR and ER apply) over crystal shard (1d6 piercing damage, close ray, no SR/PR, and ER is irrelevant)? However, I agree 100% that you must also apply the same rule to spells which deal piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning damage.

Don't use the nerf on the scaling DC of energy missle. With the DC scalling at +1 per extra power point, all that happens is that the power becomes more reliable as you get to higher levels. If you look at the higher level direct-damage powers you can learn, a lot of them either don't have a save or have some sort of extra affect (even if the extra affect is extra damage beyond the usual 1d6 per power point). Energy missle fits right in there. The fast scalling augment doesn't overpower energy missle, it just keeps it relevant at higher levels.

The astral construct nerf states that you can only have one astral construct up at a time. Meanwhile, wizards can summon three monsters at the same time, and have keep summoning untill they have a small army. The final nail in the coffin for this nerf is the fact that Complete Psionic itself introduces several summoning powers that allow you to summon multiple creatures at once.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ancalimohtar 05-29-07, 08:44 AM	I'm starting a campaign soon, and because I'm a CO regular, I'm familiar with almost all 3.5 stuff, I'm very comfortable in choosing what to allow and what to ban. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with psionics, and interest has been shown in playing psionic PCs. Given what I've heard about CPsi, should I ban it? Or should I just have a long list of houserules ready? What's this board's take on how to handle this book?
Ecalsneerg 05-29-07, 08:45 AM	The two stickied threads tell you all you need to know.
Bacris 05-29-07, 08:59 AM	I strongly recommend the New DM / Player's Guide to Psionics (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D486266). :)
hovnarr 05-29-07, 09:51 AM	Nice to see a familiar face from the CO boards get into psionics! Now, Given what I've heard about CPsi, should I ban it? Or should I just have a long list of houserules ready? What's this board's take on how to handle this book? The stickied FAQ adresses this concern, but I'd like to add an important point: Psychic Reformation. This allows you to incorporate core, SRD psionics first while you can take your time with CPsi and see what you like. Then, if you decide to incorporate it, the psionic characters can always use Psychic Reformation to reform their characters with any new feats and powers you decide to allow. The only thing you should probably consider from the get go is the optionl CPsi errata that affects core psionic stuff, such as your take on Astral Construct. See the FAQ for details on this.
Archangel62 05-29-07, 10:01 AM	The only thing I can think of is just make sure that you know the basics of manifesting and that the nova power of a psionic character is great. Beyond that, have fun, oh and since MiC has psionic stuff on the treasure tables random loot is now easier to work with.
ancalimohtar 05-29-07, 10:10 AM	Nice to see a familiar face from the CO boards get into psionics!I'd been meaning to for a while, along with other systems. For example, I feel left out of Tome of Battle discussions (what's this about a Crusader?) even though I've read through some of the book. The stickied FAQ adresses this concern, but I'd like to add an important point: Psychic Reformation. This allows you to incorporate core, SRD psionics first while you can take your time with CPsi and see what you like. Then, if you decide to incorporate it, the psionic characters can always use Psychic Reformation to reform their characters with any new feats and powers you decide to allow.Is this like the PHB2 retraining rules? The only thing you should probably consider from the get go is the optionl CPsi errata that affects core psionic stuff, such as your take on Astral Construct. See the FAQ for details on this.I read through Tempest's FAQ, as well as the thread for new DMs linked above. At this point, I really am appealing to the experience of this board for some straight up answers--what is reasonable? Should I just ignore the errata on astral constructs or incorporate them? Also, are they really listed as optional/variant rules? Or are they meant to supercede XPH rules? In the end, should I pretend the CP was never printed? Or is it worth the effort to read another (seemingly crappy) book? And don't worry, I know the inherent consequences of the differences between mana-based casting systems and Vancean spell-slot systems. Novas I can handle. ;)
Bacris 05-29-07, 10:23 AM	In my experience, Astral Construct is not a problem power. And that's from having a kineticist with Expanded Knowledge using it from about 12th level on. Didn't have Boost Construct, but I had templated, decently-constructed Astral Constructs that were tailored for the appropriate situation. They look good on paper, but the damage that they do just isn't that good. What they ARE good at is battlefield control - soaking up damage, grappling targets, bullrushing enemies, etc. So they can be great for tactical use, but not so much to actually kill. I consider it fine to leave as-written in the XPH. Or, if you do want to impose a limit, only limit non-Shapers - let the shaper have as many as he wants. He's giving up other options to be good at creating, don't shaft him in that regard. Psychic Reformation is like retraining, but a lot faster and a lot more limited in what it can do. Retraining can redo levels, feats, skills, etc, etc - psychic reformation can do skills, feats, and powers. That's it. CPsi does have some good stuff - I recommend checking out the Ardent, the Lurk, the Erudite, the Soulbow, and some of the powers and feats. Most of the rest of it can be ignored, at least in my opinion.
hovnarr 05-29-07, 10:32 AM	Is this like the PHB2 retraining rules? Pretty much, so it's a moot point if you already use them. what is reasonable? Should I just ignore the errata on astral constructs or incorporate them? Yes, that is reasonable. Only allowing one AC at a time is unreasonable. However: 1) When I play a psion myself, I usually find that one AC at a time is sufficient but that's because I rarely use them as a default answer and more as a specialized tool (for handling certain undead for instance). A more dedicated concept (like the constructor PrC) would suffer a lot from the nerf however. 2) As a DM, I house rule a general limitation on summons/hirelings/cohorts/companions/familiars/whatever, such that no character may control more than 4 such entities at a time so as not to stall game play too much (it gets bad when every character is a party in itself). This means part of the reason for the AC nerf is already moot to me. Also, are they really listed as optional/variant rules? Or are they meant to supercede XPH rules? Meant to supercede, as is normally the case when a later edition comes out with an update. However, if you don't allow the update, you're expected to play under unupdated rules. I think that's the best way to approach it: not as optional rules, not as errata, but as an update. As for personal opinions on these updates: 1) AC nerf = bad = don't use it 2) DR for inst. creation effects = strange and unnecessary rules exception. Only use if you nerf arcane/divine effects in a similar manner for some reason. 3) Soulknife clarification = use it 4) Updated DC scaling on energy powers = use it 5) Hostile Empathic Transfer: needs some clarification if not nerfing, but CPsi goes too far I think. Use your discretion for this one. 6) Dimension Door augments = use it if you use CPsi... personally I see no reason to arbitrarily adding "nifty" augments to powers that work well as is.
InkBlot 05-29-07, 12:02 PM	Unlike retraining, psychic reformation allows you to tailor your powers and feats 10 minutes before you head into battle. The power is still usefull and relevant in a game which allows retraining. There is a heavy XP cost for psychic reformation, and of course the opportunity cost of learning psychic reformation instead of another power. Applying Damage Reduction to powers which deal piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage makes too much sense not to use, and balances out powers which would otherwise be too good. If DR didn't apply, then why would you ever take energy ray (1d6 fire/cold/electric/sonic dmg, close ray, SR/PR and ER apply) over crystal shard (1d6 piercing damage, close ray, no SR/PR, and ER is irrelevant)? However, I agree 100% that you must also apply the same rule to spells which deal piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning damage. Don't use the nerf on the scaling DC of energy missle. With the DC scalling at +1 per extra power point, all that happens is that the power becomes more reliable as you get to higher levels. If you look at the higher level direct-damage powers you can learn, a lot of them either don't have a save or have some sort of extra affect (even if the extra affect is extra damage beyond the usual 1d6 per power point). Energy missle fits right in there. The fast scalling augment doesn't overpower energy missle, it just keeps it relevant at higher levels. The astral construct nerf states that you can only have one astral construct up at a time. Meanwhile, wizards can summon three monsters at the same time, and have keep summoning untill they have a small army. The final nail in the coffin for this nerf is the fact that Complete Psionic itself introduces several summoning powers that allow you to summon multiple creatures at once.