Post/Author/DateTime	Post
skywyze 03-12-07, 03:39 AM	Our party recently had a fight with a bunch of clerics and I found my telepath mostly useless during the fight (We're too low level for Dominate still, and clerics have good will saves anyway). So I'm planning to have her use Psychic Reformation to select some new powers - hopefully more useful ones. Wish-list: Must be useable by a character who's about to turn ML 7. Must NOT allow a Fort or Will save. Must NOT be a death-effect, negative energy or any of the stuff that clerics have an easy time protecting themselves against (Deathward, I'm looking at YOU). Must either do so much damage over so short a time that their constant healing can't keep up with the damage OR it can be a power that deals lots of damage over time, such that they'll run out of spells. Preferrably not a ray, since clerics have ways of cranking their touch AC up pretty well. This isn't a deal-breaker though. Any suggestions? Crystal Shard doesn't do NEARLY enough damage. Mind Thrust allows a will save. The DC of Energy Wall doesn't increase and can't be augmented, otherwise it'd be great. The character is a telepath, but we know a 17th level telepath who's willing to transfer some cross-discipline powers via Metaconcert to her via Psychic Chirurgery if it's good enough to warrant it. It's expensive, but the character has already learned Astral Construct this way. It's a good way to stay equipment-independant. Anyway, if you know any good anti-cleric powers, that'd be great. Thanks!
calronmoonflower 03-12-07, 04:02 AM	Larval Flayers can summon help. Same goes for Astral Construct can also work and you already know that power. Ectoplasmic Cocoon will work, but its a 3rd level shaper power, so it will cost you. I also made a homebrewed power that will work, but you'll have to get close to use it. Energy Touch Psychokinesis [see text] Level: Psion/wilder 1, Psychic Warrior 1 Display: Auditory Manifesting Time: 1 Standard Action Range: Touch Target: Creature or object touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Reflex half or Fortitude half; see text Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 1 Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You touch is empowered with that energy type dealing 1d6 damage to the next creature or object you touch. Cold: With a touch of this type deals +1 points of damage per die. The saving throw to deduce damage from a Cold Touch is a fortitude save instead of a reflex save. Electricity: Manifesting a touch of this energy attack provides a +2 bonus to the save and a +2 bonus on manifester level checks for the purpose of overcoming power resistance. Fire: A touch of this energy type deals +1 points of damage per die. Sonic: A touch of this energy type deals -1 points of damage per die and ignores an object’s hardness. This power’s subtype is the same as the type of energy you manifest. Augment: For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by one die (d6). For each extra two dice of damage, this power’s save DC increases by1.
crizhII 03-12-07, 04:39 AM	Energy Ray or Energy Missile. Both can be used to target objects, the first will require an attack the second gets a Ref save for half. Using the sonic energy type destroying the targets Divine Focus should be trivial. Voila, no more spellcasting.
chiefsheep 03-12-07, 07:19 AM	Ah yes, clerics! The bane of PCs everywhere. Especially when they start healing each other. Damn cheaters...grumble...grumble Clerics' main weakness when it comes to spells or powers is going to be reflex saves. They tend to be armoured as well, which makes anything electrical more potent. Astral Construct, as you probably already know, is a handy one vs pretty much everything, including clerics. As your level you can crank out a couple and then manifest other powers while they pound at your enemies. Here's a few other ideas: Energy Bolt (3rd) - yes, you could go with energy ray, but why? Both cost the same to manifest per die of damage, bolt has a much greater range and you can hit several targets with a bolt (if they line up nicely for you). Manifest as electricity and its another +2 on the save DC for a ref save - the cleric's weakest. Telekinetic thrust (3rd) - carry around a few quivers of crossbow bolts. At the start of the combat upend one on to the floor and use TT to fire a bolt per level per round (using your int modifier instead of dex). At 7th levels that's 7 bolts/attacks per round. *grins at the party's bow specialist* :P And/or wait until the first of your armoured foes goes down (armoured he'll probably weigh 200 - 250 lbs) and then.......TT him into the next foe :D - for d6 points of damage per 25lbs, so 8-10d6 damage. Then TT him into the next. And the next.... Create Sound - a slightly different take is to use Create Sound on boss cleric and take his spellcasting out of the frame. No save, no SR, duration = concentration. Hard to cast healing when your verbal component keeps coming out as "Retreat! Run Away! Run Away!"
carnivore 03-12-07, 08:04 AM	TK Thrust is great....but use it to throw something else......: Thunderstones.....gives them problems casting spells Tanglefoot bags.....also gives problems casting spells...cumulative effect with thunder stones Alchemist Fire....same Acid Flasks.........same example.......if you use TK Thrust @ 7th ML....and you fire the following: 1 Thunderstone 1 Tanglefoot Bag 1 Acid Flask 1 Alchemist Fire 3 Arrows coated with contact Poison(Black Lotus) then if all hit.....they take 5d6 damage, are Entangled,Deafened,and take Con Damage....to cast spells....they must make several checks(entangle,Deaf,damage) very versatile....and easy to use....some effects will target several creatures(if they are bunched together....Thunderstone) you can throw several of the same type at several clerics(throw several Thunderstones for Multiple Saves) :D
The_Ditto 03-12-07, 09:35 AM	Wall of Ectoplasm. Start seperating them ... deal with them 1 at a time ... If they can't get to each other, they can't heal each other, and you have a better chance at punking them ... If you're using magic/psionic transparency ... Dispel Psionics ... Cleric's are only a real problem if they're buffed ... so "debuff" them ... again ... and again ... and again .... :D (I'd obviously recommend an anti-magic or anti-psionic spell/power but I think that's too high level ... if you can obtain something like that, that's the easiest .. shut them down magic-wise .. and let the fighters of your group stomp them ...) Swarm of Crystals may not be a lot of damage, but it is guaranteed damage and consistent damage you can rely on ... Although it might be a bit costly, Ego Whip might even be worth looking at (maybe not) .. but it's worth mentioning: - Yes it's a will save, but it's will for half .. so they still take damage if they save. - Charisma damage ... depends if they have their CHA high or not ... if it's a dump stat, you should be able to drop 1 or two ... with "damage" that they cannot heal that easily ... (Lesser restoration, true . but they better have them prepared, they can't swap out like they can with cures if they're good ...) Again .. this probably isn't the best tactic, but it might be a fall back option .. *shrug* Energy Missile (no save) or Energy Cone (Ref Save) can spit out some good damage ... but they are Kineticist specific powers ... The only other suggestions I have is to approach the problem from a totally different angle. When I play a caster/manifester type character, and we face opponents who are very resistant my spells/powers ... rather than trying to fight that, I start buffing my own part members ... and run interference (ie Walls) ... by doing that, you give the rest of your team a major tactical advantage. It's amazing what a fighter and/or rogue can do with a few simple spells/powers cast on them ... (obviously easier with spells - as the nature of psionics is more "personal" but you get the idea ...) Try and do what you can in that regards ... (leads me back to Wall of Ectoplasm ...) :tiphat:
Jaid 03-12-07, 09:48 AM	i would recommend ectoplasmic cocoon and energy stun, personally. if they are close enough to be healing each other, energy stun could even hit all of them :) sure, it's two saves, and the second one is will... but if you're hitting all of them, it's a fair chance that one of them will fail, and at the least you've just done some damage to them. electrical stun will boost your DCs by 2 points as well. and best of all, it's not a discipline power :) (note, energy stun is even better if your DM ignores the CPsi nerf, though at least on energy stun i can agree it was necessary...)
Ryuu_Tenshi 03-12-07, 12:17 PM	If you're using magic/psionic transparency ... Dispel Psionics ... Cleric's are only a real problem if they're buffed ... so "debuff" them ... again ... and again ... and again .... :D I second this option. My Shaper and his buddies were up against a Cleric of Nerul and her vampire buddies. The very first words out of my mouth were: "... I OVERCHANNEL PSIONIC DISPEL o.O" To which our Swordsage/Wizard/Jade Pheonix Mage responded: "... I love you." Ended up debuffing almost everything she had in one go, at which point the barbarian walked up, raged, and made her into chutney. If you're using transparency (which you should be, makes everything less of a headache!), dispel works wonders. Sure, it's a will save, but it's augmentable to up that save, and if you've got Overchannel/Talented then it's even better. And if you're a Telepath, you should be pumping your saves anyway, even if they aren't normally high enough to own a cleric. It's one of the few powers which I truly think is better than the spell, primarily in that it is augmentable. Also, being a psion, unlike, say, the wizard, or even the sorcerer, you can just keep using it while other people deal the damage (if you have to). Astral Construct is a good recommendation as well, but only if you're willing to take Expanded Knowledge. Energy powers with a reflex save are also good - and remember, not only can you use Electricity to up the save even higher, you can also opt to use sonic if it turns out they're packing an energy resistance spell of some sort. Most energy resist spells, afik, tend to neglect sonic damage. Even the lowly energy ray can work wonders, given that it's not a save at all, but a ranged touch attack, which most clerics aren't too good at avoiding either, given all that heavy armor they're wearing. ... Interesting note. I've noticed that many of the options in this thread really are the shaper's specialty, what with things like walls, constructs, and TK Thrusting the Bag of d00m (thunderstone, tanglefoot Bag, acid flask, alchemist fire, black lotus extract). This almost makes me want to construct an anti-cleric shaper build. I wonder if it can be done o.O Likely not, given the wank high level clerics get.
The_Ditto 03-12-07, 01:28 PM	Sure, it's a will save, No it's not .. Dispel Psionics Psychokinesis Level: Psion/wilder 3 Display: Visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Target or Area: One manifester, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst Duration: Instantaneous or 1d4 rounds; see text Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 5 This almost makes me want to construct an anti-cleric shaper build. I wonder if it can be done o.O Likely not, given the wank high level clerics get. If I were trying to do this, I'd seriously look into either Anti-magic Field or Null-psionics field ... and then try to come up with interesting builds that rely on non-magical means to keep the victim in the area .. (ie grappling?) ... .. or possibly drowning? What about an aquatic sub-type character, pops up wall of force or stone, create water a few times, and anti-magic field? Then just sit and wait? :waits:
SlanderPanic 03-12-07, 02:07 PM	Not to toot my own horn, but one of the fun possibilities of the Mystic Musketeer prestige class (see sig) is the ability to tag enemies and areas with null psionics fields or anti-magic fields from a distance. Nothing says "pwnt" like putting a bullet into someone which then suppresses all their stuff for at least 11 minutes.
AntiDjinn 03-12-07, 03:04 PM	Telepath vs. cleric is a tough situation. Even if you completely neutralize the cleric's casting, he still has d8 for hits vs. your d4, better BAB, and is probably better armed with a better AC. In melee, even without spells and buffs, the cleric is no slouch. Try fooling the cleric into thinking you are a spellcaster (spout gibberish and wiggle your fingers, dress the part too) so he will waste an action casting Silence on you. The power Stomp is Reflex (negates). It does minor nonlethal damage, but more importantly leaves the target prone. Combine this with Astral Construct (flying so it will not be affected by Stomp) and the cleric either has to stay down or suffer the AoO for standing up in a threatened area. Although it allows a Fortitude save, don't forget about Mindwipe. It bestows negative levels but is not a negative energy effect. Negative Plane Protection and such is of no benefit, and it is unlikely the clerics you are facing at level 7 have Mind Blank. Once you land two negative levels the fight shifts considerably in your favor; he looses hit points, doesn't fight as well, looses his two highest level spells and two effective caster levels, and takes a penalty to saving throws so it gets easier for you to stack on more negative levels or use other powers. Another good telepathic debuff is Inflict Pain. Even assuming the cleric will make the Will save, he automatically takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls, skill checks (including Concentration checks), and ability checks. This will offset an existing Bless spell or similar buff, or force him to use a buff to counter the imposed penalty. Don't bother to augment unless you need to affect multiple targets at once; the -2 automatic penalty for a mere 3 power points is a better deal than spending 7 or more to possibly inflict a -4. Once he is under inflict pain he can't cast without a Concentration check, even if he is not in melee, because he is casting under unfavorable or distracting conditions.