I understand Complete Psionic [Archive] - Wizards Community

I understand Complete Psionic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheKeyofE
12-25-07, 08:34 AM A while ago, I saw an interesting sig quote that said roughly, "WOTC didn't kill Greyhawk. Grognardise did. And it's doing the same to Forgotten Realms. Help fight Grognardise," or something similar.

I think that most of you know what a grognard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grognard) is, but for those of you who don't, it generally refers to, at least around here, the "old timers." People who have been around for a long time, often since 1st Ed. The connotation usually applied to the term is negative, and indicates an "old school" gamer that thinks anything new is inherently inferior to the original.

There's nothing wrong with being "old school." If you find something that you like, stick with it. If something new comes out, you try it and if you prefer the old then you go back to the old. But the stereotypical grognard REFUSES to try the new stuff, assuming it will be terrible compared to the old. Or perhaps he does try the new stuff but minimizes the benefits while maximizing the flaws, in order to "prove" that the new stuff sucks. Many psionics haters fit this description. A lot of people that hated Tome of Battle when it was released, especially those that called it "too anime," also fit this description.

I don't like grognardise because refusing to adapt means death. Also, when is more options ever NOT a good thing? I'm put off by the anti-4E sig quotes for the same reason, but that's another argument.

On to the point of this post:
For reasons unknown to me, I had the above sig quote bouncing around in my head while I was at work tonight. I started thinking about HOW grognardise would have killed Greyhawk.

So TSR releases a bunch of Greyhawk stuff. The old-timers like it. They play it for a bunch of years. Then WOTC buys TSR, and starts releasing stuff. The old-timers instinctively reject the new stuff. Eventually, WOTC stops releasing Greyhawk stuff because the old players reject it and the new players don't care either way. In other words, no one buys it.

That's how grognardise killed Greyhawk. They were dissatisfied with all the new stuff so they didn't buy it. A company has no reason to make products that won't be bought, and WOTC was sick of grognards whining (since they WILL whine, no matter what).

But then it hit me, like a green ray disintigrating a wall of force in my brain. That's why there has been no psionic support since Complete Psionic.

Psionics in this edition is regarded as "optional" or "fringe" rules, much like Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum despite the fact that psionics is in the SRD. One of the reasons for this is grognardise, as I mentioned.

So WOTC, for whatever reasons, considers psionics in the same department as the "alternative" magic systems, and gives it very little support (even though they put it in the SRD. Go figure). But after making the "Complete" series of books, somebody in the company says "Hey! Let's throw those wierd psionics fans a bone!"

That bone was Complete Psionic. Except that that bone tasted like sh**. (Maybe that's a bad example, since dogs eat bones and their own sh**?) Anyway, we (collectively, the psionics fans) cried out "Hey! This bone tastes like sh**!" except that the way WOTC heard it was "Hey! You nerfed all our powers! We liked it better the old way!"

We liked it better the old way. Sound like grognardise to anyone else? I'm betting that's how WOTC heard it, too. They labeled us grognards instead of listening to our legitimate complaints about a crappy supplement. And since grognards WILL whine, no matter what, they have no reason to try to please us because we'll just whine about whatever they throw our way.

That is why there has been no psionics support since CPsi. It's all so clear to me, now. (http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/2005798949605151449_rs.jpg)
TheKeyofE
12-25-07, 08:40 AM Oh, yeah, and merry Christmas, or something like that :P
Jaid
12-25-07, 01:19 PM ... except that we also went out, and started buying *other* new psionic material, and keep on telling WotC that complete psionic still sucks, but that we *are* willing to spend our money on other stuff.

it should be blatantly clear that there *is* a market for psionic material out there, because there is a company that has had 2 large releases (>100 pages), 1 more large release coming up, and probably over 20 smaller releases which could easily combine to make 2-3 large releases (in fact, DSP has basically done that too... you can now get compilations of many of their various small supplements).

so quite frankly, we haven't told WotC that we don't want new material. we've told them that if they're going to publish garbage, we're gonna complain about it, and take our money elsewhere to a company that *won't* try to sell us garbage (not that everything in CPsi is bad, mind you, but it's not worth the money when you put it next to products like hyperconscious, untapped potential, or any of the other quality material that has been released that builds on the expanded psionics handbook).

i think that by showing WotC that we really strongly approve of the Expanded Psionics Handbook, in fact, and by expressing considerable distaste for previous editions of psionics (or at least, the mechanics for those previous editions of psionics) we have in fact shown WotC that we are not grognards. the XPH is not like *anything* that has existed in previous editions to my knowledge. it doesn't even particularly resemble psionics as presented in any previous edition of D&D to my knowledge, mechanically (well, i guess 3.0 did also have power levels... but other than that...)

seriously, i'm just not seeing any signs of grognardise. but hey, if it comes down to it, and WotC still continues to believe we're not interested in new material (and based on the fact that CPsi was based on market research performed in a cave on mars while blindfolded, whereas UTP was based on free market research performed over the course of several years on these boards, which is where WotC *should* have looked to see what would be welcomed) we can rest assured that there are 3rd party companies out there who *don't* bury their head in the sand, and they are willing to produce the new material that we are interested in.
hogarth
12-25-07, 02:06 PM Psionics in this edition is regarded as "optional" or "fringe" rules, much like Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum despite the fact that psionics is in the SRD. One of the reasons for this is grognardise, as I mentioned.
I don't think it has anything to do with "grognardise". The simple fact is that anything that's not in the three Core Books is optional for D&D. That includes the stuff in the Psionic, Epic and Divine SRDs; the fact that they released some rules in a SRD doesn't make them less optional. So when WotC releases a new book, which will have the biggest possible market (from a marketer's point of view): a self-contained book that only requires the 3 Core books to use, or a book that expands on an optional rule set that has come before (like Complete Incarnum or the Tome of Even More Magic)?
The_Mess
12-25-07, 03:20 PM It was two years after XPH that they released CPsi. It hasn't been two years since CPsi, so there's no evidence that sales of CPsi *slowed* the release of psionic material. It will be April 2008 before they've failed to produce another at that rate!

But, if a book doesn't sell because it's bad, it's not grognards killing the line, it's WOTC. And if they're making the line bad, I won't support it, I'd rather have it die/move to 3rd parties (I have all the dreamscarred books but one), or move to another game line (Mutants and Masterminds also rules!)
calronmoonflower
12-25-07, 03:48 PM But then it hit me, like a green ray disintigrating a wall of force in my brain. That's why there has been no psionic support since Complete Psionic.

Except the Mind's Eye articles which are free. :)

I bought the Complete Psionic and think it was worth it even though it could have been augmented to a much higher effect. :(

For other psionics support is Untapped Potential. :cheer:
Favored Enemy
12-25-07, 09:46 PM I didn't mind the nerfs at all. They made sense to me. My problem was with the ERRORS.
CrimsonDeath
12-25-07, 11:55 PM Except the Mind's Eye articles which are free. :)
Although there would probably be a market for a Mind's Eye compilation book. Some people prefer books over electronic content, and some DMs don't allow material that's not presented in dead-tree format.
zuul88
12-26-07, 12:12 AM I am one of those who finds ComPsi. a not very useful book. It wasnt so much about what it did provide but what it didnt. No real support for XPH races or classes(No 30 feats that could be call "racial psi-like abilty boost" doesnt count.) Psionic users have moved on to 3rd party material mainly because WotC moved on to 4th ed. I actually read a 4th ed. races and classes book where it specificlly stated that psionic power has a different center then magic. The will be areas where psionic powers are much more powerful then their magic counterpart. We will see in 2 years.

Respect
Nathan
jbsaff
12-26-07, 12:53 AM Proud owner of every single Dreamscarred Press release (to my knowledge). On the other hand, I have never purchased a single book from WOTC, since my DM had multiple copies of the Player's Handbook. I'd gladly pay for what I need. Complete Psionics was not what I need.
Sinfire Titan
12-26-07, 03:07 AM ... except that we also went out, and started buying *other* new psionic material, and keep on telling WotC that complete psionic still sucks, but that we *are* willing to spend our money on other stuff.

it should be blatantly clear that there *is* a market for psionic material out there, because there is a company that has had 2 large releases (>100 pages), 1 more large release coming up, and probably over 20 smaller releases which could easily combine to make 2-3 large releases (in fact, DSP has basically done that too... you can now get compilations of many of their various small supplements).

so quite frankly, we haven't told WotC that we don't want new material. we've told them that if they're going to publish garbage, we're gonna complain about it, and take our money elsewhere to a company that *won't* try to sell us garbage (not that everything in CPsi is bad, mind you, but it's not worth the money when you put it next to products like hyperconscious, untapped potential, or any of the other quality material that has been released that builds on the expanded psionics handbook).

i think that by showing WotC that we really strongly approve of the Expanded Psionics Handbook, in fact, and by expressing considerable distaste for previous editions of psionics (or at least, the mechanics for those previous editions of psionics) we have in fact shown WotC that we are not grognards. the XPH is not like *anything* that has existed in previous editions to my knowledge. it doesn't even particularly resemble psionics as presented in any previous edition of D&D to my knowledge, mechanically (well, i guess 3.0 did also have power levels... but other than that...)

seriously, i'm just not seeing any signs of grognardise. but hey, if it comes down to it, and WotC still continues to believe we're not interested in new material (and based on the fact that CPsi was based on market research performed in a cave on mars while blindfolded, whereas UTP was based on free market research performed over the course of several years on these boards, which is where WotC *should* have looked to see what would be welcomed) we can rest assured that there are 3rd party companies out there who *don't* bury their head in the sand, and they are willing to produce the new material that we are interested in.

Hence the reason Psionics is more or less confirmed to be Core in 4e. They more or less confirmed it in Races and Classes.
FriendlyFrog
12-26-07, 08:06 PM But then it hit me, like a green ray disintigrating a wall of force in my brain. That's why there has been no psionic support since Complete Psionic.
There has been a lot of psionic support, but most of it has been underground and small in scale. As calronmoonflower said, the Mind's eye has again seen some action, and almost every Eberron book tends to have at least something psionic in it!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheKeyofE 12-25-07, 08:34 AM	A while ago, I saw an interesting sig quote that said roughly, "WOTC didn't kill Greyhawk. Grognardise did. And it's doing the same to Forgotten Realms. Help fight Grognardise," or something similar. I think that most of you know what a grognard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grognard) is, but for those of you who don't, it generally refers to, at least around here, the "old timers." People who have been around for a long time, often since 1st Ed. The connotation usually applied to the term is negative, and indicates an "old school" gamer that thinks anything new is inherently inferior to the original. There's nothing wrong with being "old school." If you find something that you like, stick with it. If something new comes out, you try it and if you prefer the old then you go back to the old. But the stereotypical grognard REFUSES to try the new stuff, assuming it will be terrible compared to the old. Or perhaps he does try the new stuff but minimizes the benefits while maximizing the flaws, in order to "prove" that the new stuff sucks. Many psionics haters fit this description. A lot of people that hated Tome of Battle when it was released, especially those that called it "too anime," also fit this description. I don't like grognardise because refusing to adapt means death. Also, when is more options ever NOT a good thing? I'm put off by the anti-4E sig quotes for the same reason, but that's another argument. On to the point of this post: For reasons unknown to me, I had the above sig quote bouncing around in my head while I was at work tonight. I started thinking about HOW grognardise would have killed Greyhawk. So TSR releases a bunch of Greyhawk stuff. The old-timers like it. They play it for a bunch of years. Then WOTC buys TSR, and starts releasing stuff. The old-timers instinctively reject the new stuff. Eventually, WOTC stops releasing Greyhawk stuff because the old players reject it and the new players don't care either way. In other words, no one buys it. That's how grognardise killed Greyhawk. They were dissatisfied with all the new stuff so they didn't buy it. A company has no reason to make products that won't be bought, and WOTC was sick of grognards whining (since they WILL whine, no matter what). But then it hit me, like a green ray disintigrating a wall of force in my brain. That's why there has been no psionic support since Complete Psionic. Psionics in this edition is regarded as "optional" or "fringe" rules, much like Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum despite the fact that psionics is in the SRD. One of the reasons for this is grognardise, as I mentioned. So WOTC, for whatever reasons, considers psionics in the same department as the "alternative" magic systems, and gives it very little support (even though they put it in the SRD. Go figure). But after making the "Complete" series of books, somebody in the company says "Hey! Let's throw those wierd psionics fans a bone!" That bone was Complete Psionic. Except that that bone tasted like sh. (Maybe that's a bad example, since dogs eat bones and their own sh?) Anyway, we (collectively, the psionics fans) cried out "Hey! This bone tastes like sh**!" except that the way WOTC heard it was "Hey! You nerfed all our powers! We liked it better the old way!" We liked it better the old way. Sound like grognardise to anyone else? I'm betting that's how WOTC heard it, too. They labeled us grognards instead of listening to our legitimate complaints about a crappy supplement. And since grognards WILL whine, no matter what, they have no reason to try to please us because we'll just whine about whatever they throw our way. That is why there has been no psionics support since CPsi. It's all so clear to me, now. (http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/2005798949605151449_rs.jpg)
TheKeyofE 12-25-07, 08:40 AM	Oh, yeah, and merry Christmas, or something like that :P
Jaid 12-25-07, 01:19 PM	... except that we also went out, and started buying other new psionic material, and keep on telling WotC that complete psionic still sucks, but that we are willing to spend our money on other stuff. it should be blatantly clear that there is a market for psionic material out there, because there is a company that has had 2 large releases (>100 pages), 1 more large release coming up, and probably over 20 smaller releases which could easily combine to make 2-3 large releases (in fact, DSP has basically done that too... you can now get compilations of many of their various small supplements). so quite frankly, we haven't told WotC that we don't want new material. we've told them that if they're going to publish garbage, we're gonna complain about it, and take our money elsewhere to a company that won't try to sell us garbage (not that everything in CPsi is bad, mind you, but it's not worth the money when you put it next to products like hyperconscious, untapped potential, or any of the other quality material that has been released that builds on the expanded psionics handbook). i think that by showing WotC that we really strongly approve of the Expanded Psionics Handbook, in fact, and by expressing considerable distaste for previous editions of psionics (or at least, the mechanics for those previous editions of psionics) we have in fact shown WotC that we are not grognards. the XPH is not like anything that has existed in previous editions to my knowledge. it doesn't even particularly resemble psionics as presented in any previous edition of D&D to my knowledge, mechanically (well, i guess 3.0 did also have power levels... but other than that...) seriously, i'm just not seeing any signs of grognardise. but hey, if it comes down to it, and WotC still continues to believe we're not interested in new material (and based on the fact that CPsi was based on market research performed in a cave on mars while blindfolded, whereas UTP was based on free market research performed over the course of several years on these boards, which is where WotC should have looked to see what would be welcomed) we can rest assured that there are 3rd party companies out there who don't bury their head in the sand, and they are willing to produce the new material that we are interested in.
hogarth 12-25-07, 02:06 PM	Psionics in this edition is regarded as "optional" or "fringe" rules, much like Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum despite the fact that psionics is in the SRD. One of the reasons for this is grognardise, as I mentioned. I don't think it has anything to do with "grognardise". The simple fact is that anything that's not in the three Core Books is optional for D&D. That includes the stuff in the Psionic, Epic and Divine SRDs; the fact that they released some rules in a SRD doesn't make them less optional. So when WotC releases a new book, which will have the biggest possible market (from a marketer's point of view): a self-contained book that only requires the 3 Core books to use, or a book that expands on an optional rule set that has come before (like Complete Incarnum or the Tome of Even More Magic)?
The_Mess 12-25-07, 03:20 PM	It was two years after XPH that they released CPsi. It hasn't been two years since CPsi, so there's no evidence that sales of CPsi slowed the release of psionic material. It will be April 2008 before they've failed to produce another at that rate! But, if a book doesn't sell because it's bad, it's not grognards killing the line, it's WOTC. And if they're making the line bad, I won't support it, I'd rather have it die/move to 3rd parties (I have all the dreamscarred books but one), or move to another game line (Mutants and Masterminds also rules!)
calronmoonflower 12-25-07, 03:48 PM	But then it hit me, like a green ray disintigrating a wall of force in my brain. That's why there has been no psionic support since Complete Psionic. Except the Mind's Eye articles which are free. :) I bought the Complete Psionic and think it was worth it even though it could have been augmented to a much higher effect. :( For other psionics support is Untapped Potential. :cheer:
Favored Enemy 12-25-07, 09:46 PM	I didn't mind the nerfs at all. They made sense to me. My problem was with the ERRORS.
CrimsonDeath 12-25-07, 11:55 PM	Except the Mind's Eye articles which are free. :) Although there would probably be a market for a Mind's Eye compilation book. Some people prefer books over electronic content, and some DMs don't allow material that's not presented in dead-tree format.
zuul88 12-26-07, 12:12 AM	I am one of those who finds ComPsi. a not very useful book. It wasnt so much about what it did provide but what it didnt. No real support for XPH races or classes(No 30 feats that could be call "racial psi-like abilty boost" doesnt count.) Psionic users have moved on to 3rd party material mainly because WotC moved on to 4th ed. I actually read a 4th ed. races and classes book where it specificlly stated that psionic power has a different center then magic. The will be areas where psionic powers are much more powerful then their magic counterpart. We will see in 2 years. Respect Nathan
jbsaff 12-26-07, 12:53 AM	Proud owner of every single Dreamscarred Press release (to my knowledge). On the other hand, I have never purchased a single book from WOTC, since my DM had multiple copies of the Player's Handbook. I'd gladly pay for what I need. Complete Psionics was not what I need.
Sinfire Titan 12-26-07, 03:07 AM	... except that we also went out, and started buying other new psionic material, and keep on telling WotC that complete psionic still sucks, but that we are willing to spend our money on other stuff. it should be blatantly clear that there is a market for psionic material out there, because there is a company that has had 2 large releases (>100 pages), 1 more large release coming up, and probably over 20 smaller releases which could easily combine to make 2-3 large releases (in fact, DSP has basically done that too... you can now get compilations of many of their various small supplements). so quite frankly, we haven't told WotC that we don't want new material. we've told them that if they're going to publish garbage, we're gonna complain about it, and take our money elsewhere to a company that won't try to sell us garbage (not that everything in CPsi is bad, mind you, but it's not worth the money when you put it next to products like hyperconscious, untapped potential, or any of the other quality material that has been released that builds on the expanded psionics handbook). i think that by showing WotC that we really strongly approve of the Expanded Psionics Handbook, in fact, and by expressing considerable distaste for previous editions of psionics (or at least, the mechanics for those previous editions of psionics) we have in fact shown WotC that we are not grognards. the XPH is not like anything that has existed in previous editions to my knowledge. it doesn't even particularly resemble psionics as presented in any previous edition of D&D to my knowledge, mechanically (well, i guess 3.0 did also have power levels... but other than that...) seriously, i'm just not seeing any signs of grognardise. but hey, if it comes down to it, and WotC still continues to believe we're not interested in new material (and based on the fact that CPsi was based on market research performed in a cave on mars while blindfolded, whereas UTP was based on free market research performed over the course of several years on these boards, which is where WotC should have looked to see what would be welcomed) we can rest assured that there are 3rd party companies out there who don't bury their head in the sand, and they are willing to produce the new material that we are interested in. Hence the reason Psionics is more or less confirmed to be Core in 4e. They more or less confirmed it in Races and Classes.
FriendlyFrog 12-26-07, 08:06 PM	But then it hit me, like a green ray disintigrating a wall of force in my brain. That's why there has been no psionic support since Complete Psionic. There has been a lot of psionic support, but most of it has been underground and small in scale. As calronmoonflower said, the Mind's eye has again seen some action, and almost every Eberron book tends to have at least something psionic in it!