Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zylo_Drizzt 03-22-07, 09:32 PM	But I wanted to expand the hulking hurler into 10 levels and add +1 to existing manifester levels. Does anyone have suggestions?
Tempest Stormwind 03-22-07, 09:41 PM	1) What does it have to do with manifesting at all? 2) Half-giants don't qualify; they're Medium. (Just guessing here) 3) Know that the Hurler has the ability to turn weight into damage, and weight scales exponentially with strength. How does over 4 billion d6 damage in one attack, with about +3 billion d6 if I got one more point of Strength in there, sound?
Shadowmind64 03-22-07, 09:48 PM	QFT, hulking hurler is a completely broken prestige class, and shouldnt be used at all, even as a 10 level prestige class. If you want a psionic creature that throws stuff, try telekinetic thrust.
FreAkOuTRG 03-22-07, 09:58 PM	Come on Ken. Even if you made it, I doubt Jack would allow it.
AntiDjinn 03-22-07, 10:53 PM	The PrC is flat-out broken. Adding psionics would only make it broken and psionic, which is something the system really doesn't need.
Red12 03-22-07, 11:59 PM	No worse than Lycan's "Shrink Item" twink- the only difference is one's a spell and one's a PrC. Think about it.
Shadowmind64 03-23-07, 10:53 AM	Heh, that shrink item trick doesnt work in my games. Conservation of momentum and all. Thats what you get for being a physics major. :)
PhaedrusXY 03-23-07, 12:03 PM	Heh, that shrink item trick doesnt work in my games. Conservation of momentum and all. Thats what you get for being a physics major. :)I think the fact that the spell just flat-out breaks the first law of thermodynamics (conservation of energy) kind of throws out any assumptions you can make about conservation of momentum. Even if you rule that the item keeps its original momentum, you just swap one abuse for another. What happens in your game when I throw a boulder, and then cast Shrink Item on it while it is in mid-air? According to you, it should have the same momentum, and therefore be accelerated to some insane speed. Also, if I just drop a shrunken boulder, and then cancel Shrink Item, it will pick up momentum due to the acceleration of gravity as it falls. All I have to do is be able to fly, and aim well, even with your ruling, and without resorting to building a Shrink Item "momentum gun".
GrandNagusEli 03-23-07, 03:27 PM	Please don't jump down my throat for this, but can anyone explain exactly <i>what</i> they feel is broken about the "Hulking Hurler?" It doesn't seem that unbalanced to me. Of course, having the requirement of being "large" has kept any of my players from ever taking it, so I've never seen it in action.
NoldorForce 03-23-07, 03:37 PM	The problem with the Hulking Hurler is that one class feature, Really Throw Anything, allows them to throw anything with a weight of what they consider a light load. (There's an optional ability that bumps this up to medium.) But the value of a light load is based on carrying capacity, which scales exponentially with Strength increases. And the damage dealt by stuff thrown varies linearly with its weight. Thus, the actual damage dealt when a Hulking Hurler throws something varies exponentially with his Strength score. To the OP's question...how does/would the PrC relate to psionics?
Kiklio 03-23-07, 03:50 PM	Even if you rule that the item keeps its original momentum, you just swap one abuse for another. What happens in your game when I throw a boulder, and then cast Shrink Item on it while it is in mid-air? According to you, it should have the same momentum, and therefore be accelerated to some insane speed. However, the force an object exerts on another during the inevitable collision depends on its momentum. Moreover, a faster object experiences a greater force of air resistance. In addition, the object does not have much mass. It will thus be affected greatly by this drag, reducing its speed. Your insane-speed projectile is not as effective as you say, if you're conforming to real-world physics.
Zaistars69 03-23-07, 04:23 PM	The PRC runs into problems because the improvised weapon damage rules are so arbitrary. The DM has to arbitrarily determine how much damage an object deals based on a relative weapon. Silly. It's not, by the way, just falling damage. Just in case anyone was thinking that. I mean an ogre hulking hurler would only do like 3d6 damage with a thrown improvised weapon (until he gets the Overburdened heave, then he can throw 4d6). Unless anyone knows where information on exactly how much damage a 500lb rock does when thrown.
NoldorForce 03-23-07, 04:32 PM	Text on the damage done by improvised objects can be found in the back of Complete Warrior. Page 159 to be precise, literally the last page of rules text. For stuff over 400 lbs, the damage is 5d6 + 1d6 per 200 lbs of weight above 400 lbs; thus a 500 lb object would deal 5d6 damage. Sharp stuff deals damage as if twice its weight; thus a sharp 500 lb object would deal 8d6 damage.
Zaistars69 03-23-07, 04:46 PM	Text on the damage done by improvised objects can be found in the back of Complete Warrior. Page 159 to be precise, literally the last page of rules text. For stuff over 400 lbs, the damage is 5d6 + 1d6 per 200 lbs of weight above 400 lbs; thus a 500 lb object would deal 5d6 damage. Sharp stuff deals damage as if twice its weight; thus a sharp 500 lb object would deal 8d6 damage. wow, disturbing. yea the class doesn't seem too well developed. thanks for the info.
Tsuul 03-23-07, 05:25 PM	Now that some of the problems of the Hurler class have been pointed out. What do you like about the Hurler that you would want carried over to a psionic PrC, Zylo_Drizzt? I'm talking flavor of the abilities, not "ability x is stronger the ability y, so I want ability x". Designing PrCs gives you a chance to fix abilities and do some pretty cool things, but it can be abused to heck. Two more issues need to be thought about before designing this class (at least 2 more anyway). - If the PrC has full manifesting over 10 levels, that's enough for most people to ink up the red [Rejected] rubber stamp. - This sounds like a psywar orientated PrC. Special care needs to be taken so that psions can't easily (or more easily then a psywar) qualify, granting better casting capabilities.
PhaedrusXY 03-23-07, 05:55 PM	However, the force an object exerts on another during the inevitable collision depends on its momentum. Moreover, a faster object experiences a greater force of air resistance. In addition, the object does not have much mass. It will thus be affected greatly by this drag, reducing its speed. Your insane-speed projectile is not as effective as you say, if you're conforming to real-world physics.It would exert the energy of this momentum as pressure over a much smaller area than the boulder, and in a much shorter time, however. So it would effectively become a bullet. And as we all know, bullets can kill people (of course, so can boulders, but they're easier to dodge ;) ). Yeah, the drag from air resistance will eventually slow down a bullet, but that doesn't make them ineffective over shorter distances, where it hardly matters.
Kiklio 03-23-07, 06:57 PM	You're definitely right on that point. I suppose pressure is, in the end, the deciding factor in killing power. Mid-air Shrinking is still problematic: Shrink Item is a Touch range spell. Contingent nonsense might work. Or, the hurler could throw a psychic warrior, who would then manifest Compression. The hurler would have to be under the effect of an Iron Body, and the psychic warrior needs to have manifested Claws of the Beast and be wearing a Skin of the Troll to make the combo truly worthwhile. My real goal was to point out that increased velocity does not increase the force upon impact precisely because momentum is conserved. I think we can both agree that attempting to apply science to D&D to negate abuse is silly.
GrandNagusEli 03-24-07, 09:46 AM	Wow, ok. I crunched some numbers. A Frost Giant right out of the MM with the Hulking Hurler PrC (assuming he had the trait that allowed him to throw a medium load) could do 21d6 damage with a thrown object. I understand now why people think this is over powered.
PhaedrusXY 03-24-07, 04:29 PM	Wow, ok. I crunched some numbers. A Frost Giant right out of the MM with the Hulking Hurler PrC (assuming he had the trait that allowed him to throw a medium load) could do 21d6 damage with a thrown object. I understand now why people think this is over powered.You have no idea. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=142565)
PhaedrusXY 03-24-07, 04:30 PM	I think we can both agree that attempting to apply science to D&D to negate abuse is silly.Absolutely. I think I said that earlier in the thread (or maybe it was another, similiar thread...).
Shadowmind64 03-24-07, 05:48 PM	It may be silly, but it stops the shrink item cheese. And fixes the whole "objects fall at 300 feet per round" thing. Heh, it not for everyone but can you blame us for using it in a gaming group full of physics majors :P
PhaedrusXY 03-24-07, 05:54 PM	It may be silly, but it stops the shrink item cheese.No, it doesn't. It just replaces it with a different kind of cheese. A shrink-item powered "rail gun". Heh, it not for everyone but can you blame us for using it in a gaming group full of physics majors :PYes, I can. I'm about 2 months away from getting my PhD in Biophysics. I don't use physics to balance D&D. It is just silly. It's a made-up fantasy game set in a world where there are actually only four elements, and the solar system is actually surrounded by a crystal sphere filled with ether. To apply modern physical laws to it is the height of absurdity, especially when your aim is game balance. Just decide what is balanced, and allow that, and disallow things that aren't. You don't need to explain them, just like you don't need to explain how "magic" works... unless you're one of those guys that knows how to speak in Klingon, and wears his light saber to the opening night of new Star Wars movies. In which case, carry on, and May the Force Be With You. :P
Rageheart 03-24-07, 08:15 PM	...[T]he hurler could throw a psychic warrior, who would then manifest Compression. The hurler would have to be under the effect of an Iron Body, and the psychic warrior needs to have manifested Claws of the Beast and be wearing a Skin of the Troll to make the combo truly worthwhile. FASTBALL SPECIAL! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastball_special)
Zylo_Drizzt 03-25-07, 04:37 PM	If the PrC has full manifesting over 10 levels, that's enough for most people to ink up the red [Rejected] rubber stamp. I didn't want full manifesting levels only like 3 or 4 out of 10 lvls and I never truly thought about how much damage a hulking hurler could do at max of 125ft of range.(I think that range is right) so what if we gave them some set parameters of damage? like i don't know 1d6 damage every 2 levels or something like that.
Khael 03-25-07, 04:44 PM	There are set parameters. They are in CW, like the hurler, which is the exact problem, since they're is no cap (Which really there shouldn't be, a thrown mountain deals more damage than a cart, but the table for that would be huge.) It problem you see, is not just the hurler. The hurler is only half of the problem, the other being the rules for improvised weapons. It's only when you put the two together they really get freaky, hence why a fighter is not teh uber with throwing this stuff...
Zaistars69 03-26-07, 10:53 AM	You have no idea. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=142565) Holy crap. I'm amazed the hulking hurler hasn't been errated yet. Ultimate cheese.
Khael 03-26-07, 11:41 AM	Holy crap. I'm amazed the hulking hurler hasn't been errated yet. Ultimate cheese. Yeah, but how do you errata it? Since its linked to strength( which makes fair bit of sense), you can't cap its lifting. Since objects do and should vary in weight you can't cap the damage... So what do you do that makes sense?
PhaedrusXY 03-26-07, 12:01 PM	Yeah, but how do you errata it? Since its linked to strength( which makes fair bit of sense), you can't cap its lifting. Since objects do and should vary in weight you can't cap the damage... So what do you do that makes sense?Make the amount you can lift scale linearly with strength, instead of exponentially. This is alot closer to the way it scales in real life. That's why the biggest creatures on earth live in the ocean. They couldn't even walk if they lived on land.
Zaistars69 03-26-07, 12:11 PM	Make the amount you can lift scale linearly with strength, instead of exponentially. This is alot closer to the way it scales in real life. That's why the biggest creatures on earth live in the ocean. They couldn't even walk if they lived on land. Yea but then where would the great wyrm dragons live? And don't even get me started on loosing the Big T
Zaistars69 03-26-07, 12:19 PM	Yeah, but how do you errata it? Since its linked to strength( which makes fair bit of sense), you can't cap its lifting. Since objects do and should vary in weight you can't cap the damage... So what do you do that makes sense? You limit it by weapon size. Does it really make sense for a halfling with a really high str to fling a wagon at someone? give them a weapon size limit. Normal people can throw weapons of med size (like a long sword) with the feat. Let the hulking hurler throw things as a creature one or two sizes larger than them. Or put a cap based on size, say a large sized creauture can only throw something for a max of say 10d6 damage, otherwise the item is too unweildy. There are plenty of options. Oh and my ideas are just some I pulled out my a double s so have only minimal thought put into them. I house ruled out the Prc for my games but hey. I did have some PC's keep dropping big rocks on bad guys from like 200' up. When I told them they have a 10' range inc for imp weapons and their 200' drop will have a -40 to the attack roll they got mad. It was funny.
Khael 03-26-07, 12:31 PM	Problem is... I can see a halfing on steroids throwing a wagon. If they have the strength the balance is the only thing and I can imagine one doing it. And also size is not weight. If I chuck a big piece of lead and a piece of stone both the same size, it is very possible the lead will deal the more damage (I was thinking brieze block, but the principle works with most msterials). If I hurl a barrel or a small boulder at you, the boulder will probably deal more damage, but its the same size... But I would go with that to-hit ruling you gave those players.
Zaistars69 03-26-07, 12:53 PM	Problem is... I can see a halfing on steroids throwing a wagon. If they have the strength the balance is the only thing and I can imagine one doing it. And also size is not weight. If I chuck a big piece of lead and a piece of stone both the same size, it is very possible the lead will deal the more damage (I was thinking brieze block, but the principle works with most msterials). If I hurl a barrel or a small boulder at you, the boulder will probably deal more damage, but its the same size... But I would go with that to-hit ruling you gave those players. I know size isn't weight. I also just read throught the improvised weapons again and there is a weight limit worked into that already based on size. the PrC should have expanded on throwing while probably maintaining the current rules, or possibly allowing he PrC to increase your effective size by a cat or two. Seems like that would have been a better method then allowing it to scale with weight. I also believe the way the carrying capacity scales exponentially is silly but that's a whole other issue.
Khael 03-26-07, 03:16 PM	But nevertheless, the limits worked out in CW are based off the fact as stuff gets larger it gets heavier, but it is actually weight to damage they use not size to damage. The problem is the PrC does work by the rules given, it doesn't make its own up, hence it'll be very hard to change the class while making it worthwhile. The carrying capacity I agree with though, not on medium sizes, but the way it increases by size reads pretty ridiculous (I once made a large character. Hilarious was the fact he could lift himself plus equipment as a light load. Had he a second charcter of similar build they no doubt could've had tons of fun hurling one another at monsters...).
JulesCARV 03-26-07, 04:53 PM	Make the amount you can lift scale linearly with strength, instead of exponentially. This is alot closer to the way it scales in real life. That's why the biggest creatures on earth live in the ocean. They couldn't even walk if they lived on land. This doesn't make much sense. "Strength" as an ability score doesn't exist outisde of D&D (and related systems). As such, how strength and carrying capacity scale with relation to each other has no relationship to realism outside of D&D. You might argue that larger creatures should have lower strength scores, but claiming that it would be "closer to the way it scales in real life" to have carrying capacity scale linearly with strength rather than exponentially isn't really meaningful.
crashbangboom 03-29-07, 09:32 AM	hulking hurler or any prestige class that is less than ten levels according to the core books can't be extended or expanded. but then again who knows?