immediate actions and being flat-footed [Archive] - Wizards Community

immediate actions and being flat-footed [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
hovnarr
07-18-07, 10:44 AM This appears to be the general case:

You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

For reference:

A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed

There are several psionic powers or special abilities that are classified as immediate actions, and it seems they are intended to get the character out of a suprise pinch. For instance, take this line from Intellect Fortress:

You can manifest this power instantly, quickly enough to gain its benefits in an emergency. Manifesting the power is an immediate action. You can use this power even when it’s not your turn.

So I imagine a goblin wizard surprising the party with a fireball - the party psion goes "Oh crap, an emergency!" and manifests Intellect Fortress. Only, by the RAW, he can't, because he hasn't acted yet. In fact, if the goblin wins initiative, he can pound the party twice with fireballs before they can get any sort of protection up.

The strange thing is that if that fireball had been caused by a far away trap instead, the party wouldn't be in combat and thus wouldn't be flat-footed. So in that case, IF, elan resistance and energy adaptation would all be fair game. Isn't this a bit strange?
Tempest Stormwind
07-18-07, 10:53 AM This appears to be the general case:

For reference:

There are several psionic powers or special abilities that are classified as immediate actions, and it seems they are intended to get the character out of a suprise pinch. For instance, take this line from Intellect Fortress:

So I imagine a goblin wizard surprising the party with a fireball - the party psion goes "Oh crap, an emergency!" and manifests Intellect Fortress. Only, by the RAW, he can't, because he hasn't acted yet. In fact, if the goblin wins initiative, he can pound the party twice with fireballs before they can get any sort of protection up.

The strange thing is that if that fireball had been caused by a far away trap instead, the party wouldn't be in combat and thus wouldn't be flat-footed. So in that case, IF, elan resistance and energy adaptation would all be fair game. Isn't this a bit strange?

If you're surprised, you can't act.

Intellect Fortress' emergency is "incoming fireball" or similar. It doesn't care if that's a surprise round or not (although you can't use it if you aren't acting in a surprise round).

It's a good defense. It's no substitute for decent Initiative, though.

Furthermore, if the fireball was caused by a trap, damn right it would have been a surprise, thus the entire party is still flat-footed.
foxtail
07-18-07, 11:10 AM Bah, Tempest beat me to it. I shouldn't be surprised, really.

Although it just now occurs to me... This means the catfall power (and by extension, the feather fall spell) is completely useless against pit traps or a fall resulting from a failed Climb check. Bummer.
AntiDjinn
07-18-07, 11:14 AM If the situation seems unfair to you then turn it around and imagine it is your party trying to ambush another party. You have spend character resources (Control Sound, Invisibility, skills in stealth skills) to be undetected. Each member has spent several actions getting into position. Your marks don't even know you and are certainly not expecting an attack. Your psion opens up with Energy Cone and the DM informs you that because one of your targets is an elan, and he has an immediate action option with Resilience, he can simply blow off the damage. Further, another member of the party can use area augmented Damp Power. Your initial assault can be neutralized by people who had no reason to even attempt a defense simply because they have immediate actions on the menu. You might as well have announced yourselves with trumpets for all the good the ambush did you. Would you be a happy camper?

If you are really concerned about having emergency defense in situations where your character can't act then use Contingency; that's what it was designed for.
AntiDjinn
07-18-07, 11:23 AM Bah, Tempest beat me to it. I shouldn't be surprised, really.

Although it just now occurs to me... This means the catfall power (and by extension, the feather fall spell) is completely useless against pit traps or a fall resulting from a failed Climb check. Bummer.

A trap may or may not surprise you (depends on its design). An ambush generally will surprise you (depends on the skill of your assailants). An ambush is carried out by the actions of others. A trap is generally passive and is set off by your actions. So, almost by definition, if you are setting off a trap (moving something, turning that doorknob the wrong way) you are taking some action. For traps that don't launch an attack against your AC (pit traps are a good example) the flat-footed state is irrelevant and so should not interfere with using the appropriate defense. In any case, Catfall is manifest immediately after you fall (it says you recover instantly, not that it affects your falling speed) so you use it in response to the impact not the sudden fall.
foxtail
07-18-07, 11:31 AM For traps that don't launch an attack against your AC (pit traps are a good example) the flat-footed state is irrelevant and so should not interfere with using the appropriate defense.

Flat-footed isn't just a defense penalty, it's a state of mind. In the OP example, the goblin wizard's fireball doesn't use an attack roll either.
BloodSpill
07-18-07, 11:42 AM Yeah.. instantaneous traps and falling damage can't be negated by Elan Resilience, then?

And all immediate actions outside of combat may as well be swift actions?
Fleem
07-18-07, 12:37 PM Detect Hostile Intent might help you:

"While the duration of this power lasts, you become aware of the presence of any creatures with hostile intent within 30 feet of you, and their direction from you (but not their specific location). The power detects active aggression, as opposed to vigilance. In addition, while this power is active you cannot be surprised or caught flatfooted by creatures that are susceptible to mind-affecting powers."

...which seems poorly worded. A reasonable caveat would be that you can't be surprised by mind-affectable creatures within the radius of the power's effect. So, if you had DHI up and beat the assailant on initiative, you'd get to use your immediate Intellect Fortress, after taking your regular action.

Also, is the omission of augment in SRD intentional? I seem to recall a +10' radius/pp from XPH.

<Rant mode: ON>
On a semi-related note, does anyone else have issues with DMs that rule ambushes (by anyone except players) automatically succeed? Mainly because the idea that you could make a spot/listen check, see the attacker, beat him in initiave, and get an attack/action off before someone who was waiting to get the drop on you, is simply unacceptable (thus Rule 0: it never happens). Detect hostile intent is the only way I've found to get around this view. The DM has circumvented this by declaring that, when you teleport somewhere (happens a lot in the current campaign), even if you know there will be some kind of guards there, their hostile intent when you appear doesn't trigger the "not surprised" bit, because you were "out of range" until you appear, at which point they get a jump on you, because guards are always 100% vigilant. Bah. And yes, I know DHI doesn't detect guards until they actually attack, but there's no exception to the "not surprised" rule for guards.
<Rant mode: OFF>
Knight0
07-18-07, 12:57 PM what if you have uncanny dodge?
Antendren
07-18-07, 01:02 PM what if you have uncanny dodge? Changes nothing.
Curtcleancut
07-18-07, 01:05 PM catfall not working for a pit trap? seems like something is broken. aren't the Elan powers designed to be protection against against things like fireball in these cases? if it won't work are these swift actions?
InkBlot
07-18-07, 01:09 PM what if you have uncanny dodge?
Then your AC is a little higher. You're still flatfooted.

Unless you're a scout. Scout's uncanny dodge is better. They can't be flatfooted.
hovnarr
07-18-07, 02:00 PM Ok, thanks for the clarifications. The only thing unclear to me now is if you can be "caught flatfooted" by an object, such as a trap. Normally, you don't go into initiative count at all when you're dealing with traps, unless it's a continous effect like "constricting walls" or something. It's definetely not "combat" even at that point, which means that the definition of "flat-footed" doesn't apply.

But that brings me back to the original discrepancy about a fireball trap granting a defense that a fireballing wizard would not, which just seems odd.

If the situation seems unfair to you then turn it around and imagine it is your party trying to ambush another party. You have spend character resources (Control Sound, Invisibility, skills in stealth skills) to be undetected. Each member has spent several actions getting into position. Your marks don't even know you and are certainly not expecting an attack. Your psion opens up with Energy Cone and the DM informs you that because one of your targets is an elan, and he has an immediate action option with Resilience, he can simply blow off the damage. Further, another member of the party can use area augmented Damp Power. Your initial assault can be neutralized by people who had no reason to even attempt a defense simply because they have immediate actions on the menu. You might as well have announced yourselves with trumpets for all the good the ambush did you. Would you be a happy camper?

If you are really concerned about having emergency defense in situations where your character can't act then use Contingency; that's what it was designed for.

These two paragraphs defeat themselves. In retort to the first one, you could use the second: All those efforts could indeed be thwarted by a contingency spell. True, damp power and elan resilience are lower level options, but they are also less powerful/versatile ones, so not unbalanced if you compare. Besides, the sudden protection also comes at price (compare resilience with vigor, for instance), which means you made your opponent spend more resources thanks to your efforts, which is really what tactics is all about.
CrimsonDeath
07-18-07, 03:44 PM Although it just now occurs to me... This means the catfall power (and by extension, the feather fall spell) is completely useless against pit traps or a fall resulting from a failed Climb check. Bummer.
It should work just fine for a failed Climb check. You are, after all, in the middle of your own action most of the time you make a Climb check. Somehow, I can't imagine being flat-footed against something I, myself, did.
hovnarr
07-18-07, 04:49 PM Somehow, I can't imagine being flat-footed against something I, myself, did.

Thanks Crimson, this made me realize something. There actually is a rationale why a sentient creature can catch you off guard in a sense that a trap cannot - even though the effects produced by either are the same.

If you're climbing, you're anticipating that you might fall. If you do, and you have the power to manifest catfall, you have prepared for exactly such an event. Under such circumstances, you can always protect yourself.

Similarly, when you're walking in a dungeon, you're not on a stroll in the park eating ice cream - you're always anticipating that monsters could attack or that traps could spring up. That is why you get saving throws etc.

However, a sentient creature who is aware of you (while you are unaware of it), can exploit momentary lapses in focus. Perhaps he strikes precisely when you look another way to see if something is hiding over there. A trap can't do that, so flat-footedness doesn't apply there (by the RAW).

Yey, I have an explanation for the RAW that is satisfactory to me! The world is harmonious yet again.
The_Ditto
07-18-07, 05:02 PM This brings to mind some thoughts with two spells from Spell Compendium ..

Nerveskitter and Warning Shout.

Both require an immediate action ...

Nerveskitter, although seeming to be "useless" based on the rulings you provided does provide some specific text which could override the general .. (at least I think it does .. :tiphat: )

Warning Shout, however, contains no such "special text" ... so it seems a heck of a lot less useful now ...

Only when the Paladin isn't surprised, the rest of the party is, and the Paladin rolls well for initiative ...

:thinks:

I wonder if there's any others out there??
AntiDjinn
07-18-07, 10:36 PM These two paragraphs defeat themselves. In retort to the first one, you could use the second: All those efforts could indeed be thwarted by a contingency spell. True, damp power and elan resilience are lower level options, but they are also less powerful/versatile ones, so not unbalanced if you compare. Besides, the sudden protection also comes at price (compare resilience with vigor, for instance), which means you made your opponent spend more resources thanks to your efforts, which is really what tactics is all about.
Not at all. Contingency is not another form of immediate action, but it is another way to prepare for the expected unexpected. It does not negate the efforts of an ambushing party, but if someone spent the time and XP to prepare a Contingency (and worded it correctly, so that is actually goes off) then think of it as using the action he spent last week in anticipation of an attack that he had reason to suspect would come, but just didn't know exactly when. In other words, the contingency-user does not suddenly nerf rounds of effort on the part of his opponents, he actually started working on the encounter days beforehand. Effectively, he launched a counter-measure a week ago.
Psikerlord
07-18-07, 10:47 PM I agree the answer to being flat footed is contingency (trigger if I am attacked before my first initiative action = dimdoor or similar) and/or extended detect hostile intent (although foe needs to be relatively close by for that to work)
foxtail
07-19-07, 12:53 AM Additionally, the sense danger power from Magic of Eberron allows you to use any one psionic power costing 1 pp (or more, if augmented) as an immediate action during the first round of combat, even if that round is a surprise round against you.
AntiDjinn
07-19-07, 01:18 AM Sense Danger is odd. It is like a baby Contingency in that you have to know in advance when you will need to be able to respond to an ambush. Unlike Contingency it doesn't have an auto trigger; you have to spend a standard action manifesting it, then it functions for the next 10 minutes/level. Also unlike Contingency you don't have to specify your response, only how many points you may spend on it. It comes out cheaper than Quicken Power in most cases when you consider how many immediate powers you are going to get to use (depends on how many combats occur while it is up).

When you are totally surprised, you won't already have it up because, by definition, if you manifest it then you are expecting an attack or other challenge soon and so should not be surprised when it comes. I suspect most PCs will manifest it whenever the DM is behind his screen rolling dice, consulting his adventure and monster books and chuckling.

Hey, wait a second, that is it! The paranoid manifester's defense: Contingency: Sense Danger. The trigger wording could be a bit tricky (if your DM likes to crock wishes, then odds are he is good at crocking contingencies). "If am ambushed" might work, or it might go off if a cloud of mosquitoes descends on you. Once it goes off you would have the Sense Danger effect without spending a standard action to manifest it (or rather, you spent that action when you Contingencied it) and activation of a Contingency is not an action on your part. So you can take that immediate action during the surprise round and have your full Dex mod to AC instantly.
Jhaelen
07-19-07, 03:57 AM And all immediate actions outside of combat may as well be swift actions?My understanding of this issue is a bit different. Outside of combat the concept of 'actions' is completely meaningless. If there is no initiative count, there's no need for tracking how long an action takes.

I believe it's completely wrong to assume that everyone is permanently flat-footed outside of combat. Can anyone actually cite anything from the rules to support that view?

Besides, I really dislike the way traps work in D&D. The rules don't make a lot of sense, requiring the trapfinding ability to detect 'complex' or magical traps is a cludge, the cost of creating traps is totally out of bounds, it's extremely unsatisfying to die because of a trap, and finally traps turn adventures into very tedious affairs. Traps just SUCK!
hovnarr
07-19-07, 07:31 AM Not at all. Contingency is not another form of immediate action, but it is another way to prepare for the expected unexpected. It does not negate the efforts of an ambushing party, but if someone spent the time and XP to prepare a Contingency (and worded it correctly, so that is actually goes off) then think of it as using the action he spent last week in anticipation of an attack that he had reason to suspect would come, but just didn't know exactly when. In other words, the contingency-user does not suddenly nerf rounds of effort on the part of his opponents, he actually started working on the encounter days beforehand. Effectively, he launched a counter-measure a week ago.

I agree to this concerning contingency, but you could also say that learning Intellect Fortress was a pre-emptive measure taken in advance. If you feel that either preparatory measure nerfs ambushes unduly, that's up to you. As for wording:

The trigger wording could be a bit tricky (if your DM likes to crock wishes, then odds are he is good at crocking contingencies). "If am ambushed" might work, or it might go off if a cloud of mosquitoes descends on you.

Actually, the best contingency trigger I've found is a spoken word of your choice. For example, use the trigger "whenever I say 'Bamboozle'". According to the RAW, you can speak at any time, it is not an action as long as the phrase is short, and you can do it when it's not your turn.

An even better option that needs to be OKd with your DM (though it should be OK) is to not actually have a spoken trigger, but let the very thought of a word such as 'Bamboozle' be the trigger. This circumvents wandering unassumingly into a silenced area or something. The only thing that can prevent your contingency from triggering is if you walk into an AMF/NPF without realizing until it's too late. But you can use a simple Continual Light spell or similar continous visible effect as a "canary bird" to circumvent this.

The best thing to put in your contingency is Temporal Acceleration. Augmented and/or extended preferably - it's still a 6th level power so it fits. And then you can do what you want. Incoming fireball? "BAMBOOZLE!" it is, and then you buff as you please before the fireball resolves. Or just teleport away. Trap? Not before you can think BAMBOOZLE, and do what you want for a few rounds. And so it goes.

I believe it's completely wrong to assume that everyone is permanently flat-footed outside of combat.

Agreed.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hovnarr 07-18-07, 10:44 AM	This appears to be the general case: You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed. For reference: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed There are several psionic powers or special abilities that are classified as immediate actions, and it seems they are intended to get the character out of a suprise pinch. For instance, take this line from Intellect Fortress: You can manifest this power instantly, quickly enough to gain its benefits in an emergency. Manifesting the power is an immediate action. You can use this power even when it’s not your turn. So I imagine a goblin wizard surprising the party with a fireball - the party psion goes "Oh crap, an emergency!" and manifests Intellect Fortress. Only, by the RAW, he can't, because he hasn't acted yet. In fact, if the goblin wins initiative, he can pound the party twice with fireballs before they can get any sort of protection up. The strange thing is that if that fireball had been caused by a far away trap instead, the party wouldn't be in combat and thus wouldn't be flat-footed. So in that case, IF, elan resistance and energy adaptation would all be fair game. Isn't this a bit strange?
Tempest Stormwind 07-18-07, 10:53 AM	This appears to be the general case: For reference: There are several psionic powers or special abilities that are classified as immediate actions, and it seems they are intended to get the character out of a suprise pinch. For instance, take this line from Intellect Fortress: So I imagine a goblin wizard surprising the party with a fireball - the party psion goes "Oh crap, an emergency!" and manifests Intellect Fortress. Only, by the RAW, he can't, because he hasn't acted yet. In fact, if the goblin wins initiative, he can pound the party twice with fireballs before they can get any sort of protection up. The strange thing is that if that fireball had been caused by a far away trap instead, the party wouldn't be in combat and thus wouldn't be flat-footed. So in that case, IF, elan resistance and energy adaptation would all be fair game. Isn't this a bit strange? If you're surprised, you can't act. Intellect Fortress' emergency is "incoming fireball" or similar. It doesn't care if that's a surprise round or not (although you can't use it if you aren't acting in a surprise round). It's a good defense. It's no substitute for decent Initiative, though. Furthermore, if the fireball was caused by a trap, damn right it would have been a surprise, thus the entire party is still flat-footed.
foxtail 07-18-07, 11:10 AM	Bah, Tempest beat me to it. I shouldn't be surprised, really. Although it just now occurs to me... This means the catfall power (and by extension, the feather fall spell) is completely useless against pit traps or a fall resulting from a failed Climb check. Bummer.
AntiDjinn 07-18-07, 11:14 AM	If the situation seems unfair to you then turn it around and imagine it is your party trying to ambush another party. You have spend character resources (Control Sound, Invisibility, skills in stealth skills) to be undetected. Each member has spent several actions getting into position. Your marks don't even know you and are certainly not expecting an attack. Your psion opens up with Energy Cone and the DM informs you that because one of your targets is an elan, and he has an immediate action option with Resilience, he can simply blow off the damage. Further, another member of the party can use area augmented Damp Power. Your initial assault can be neutralized by people who had no reason to even attempt a defense simply because they have immediate actions on the menu. You might as well have announced yourselves with trumpets for all the good the ambush did you. Would you be a happy camper? If you are really concerned about having emergency defense in situations where your character can't act then use Contingency; that's what it was designed for.
AntiDjinn 07-18-07, 11:23 AM	Bah, Tempest beat me to it. I shouldn't be surprised, really. Although it just now occurs to me... This means the catfall power (and by extension, the feather fall spell) is completely useless against pit traps or a fall resulting from a failed Climb check. Bummer. A trap may or may not surprise you (depends on its design). An ambush generally will surprise you (depends on the skill of your assailants). An ambush is carried out by the actions of others. A trap is generally passive and is set off by your actions. So, almost by definition, if you are setting off a trap (moving something, turning that doorknob the wrong way) you are taking some action. For traps that don't launch an attack against your AC (pit traps are a good example) the flat-footed state is irrelevant and so should not interfere with using the appropriate defense. In any case, Catfall is manifest immediately after you fall (it says you recover instantly, not that it affects your falling speed) so you use it in response to the impact not the sudden fall.
foxtail 07-18-07, 11:31 AM	For traps that don't launch an attack against your AC (pit traps are a good example) the flat-footed state is irrelevant and so should not interfere with using the appropriate defense. Flat-footed isn't just a defense penalty, it's a state of mind. In the OP example, the goblin wizard's fireball doesn't use an attack roll either.
BloodSpill 07-18-07, 11:42 AM	Yeah.. instantaneous traps and falling damage can't be negated by Elan Resilience, then? And all immediate actions outside of combat may as well be swift actions?
Fleem 07-18-07, 12:37 PM	Detect Hostile Intent might help you: "While the duration of this power lasts, you become aware of the presence of any creatures with hostile intent within 30 feet of you, and their direction from you (but not their specific location). The power detects active aggression, as opposed to vigilance. In addition, while this power is active you cannot be surprised or caught flatfooted by creatures that are susceptible to mind-affecting powers." ...which seems poorly worded. A reasonable caveat would be that you can't be surprised by mind-affectable creatures within the radius of the power's effect. So, if you had DHI up and beat the assailant on initiative, you'd get to use your immediate Intellect Fortress, after taking your regular action. Also, is the omission of augment in SRD intentional? I seem to recall a +10' radius/pp from XPH. <Rant mode: ON> On a semi-related note, does anyone else have issues with DMs that rule ambushes (by anyone except players) automatically succeed? Mainly because the idea that you could make a spot/listen check, see the attacker, beat him in initiave, and get an attack/action off before someone who was waiting to get the drop on you, is simply unacceptable (thus Rule 0: it never happens). Detect hostile intent is the only way I've found to get around this view. The DM has circumvented this by declaring that, when you teleport somewhere (happens a lot in the current campaign), even if you know there will be some kind of guards there, their hostile intent when you appear doesn't trigger the "not surprised" bit, because you were "out of range" until you appear, at which point they get a jump on you, because guards are always 100% vigilant. Bah. And yes, I know DHI doesn't detect guards until they actually attack, but there's no exception to the "not surprised" rule for guards. <Rant mode: OFF>
Knight0 07-18-07, 12:57 PM	what if you have uncanny dodge?
Antendren 07-18-07, 01:02 PM	what if you have uncanny dodge? Changes nothing.
Curtcleancut 07-18-07, 01:05 PM	catfall not working for a pit trap? seems like something is broken. aren't the Elan powers designed to be protection against against things like fireball in these cases? if it won't work are these swift actions?
InkBlot 07-18-07, 01:09 PM	what if you have uncanny dodge? Then your AC is a little higher. You're still flatfooted. Unless you're a scout. Scout's uncanny dodge is better. They can't be flatfooted.
hovnarr 07-18-07, 02:00 PM	Ok, thanks for the clarifications. The only thing unclear to me now is if you can be "caught flatfooted" by an object, such as a trap. Normally, you don't go into initiative count at all when you're dealing with traps, unless it's a continous effect like "constricting walls" or something. It's definetely not "combat" even at that point, which means that the definition of "flat-footed" doesn't apply. But that brings me back to the original discrepancy about a fireball trap granting a defense that a fireballing wizard would not, which just seems odd. If the situation seems unfair to you then turn it around and imagine it is your party trying to ambush another party. You have spend character resources (Control Sound, Invisibility, skills in stealth skills) to be undetected. Each member has spent several actions getting into position. Your marks don't even know you and are certainly not expecting an attack. Your psion opens up with Energy Cone and the DM informs you that because one of your targets is an elan, and he has an immediate action option with Resilience, he can simply blow off the damage. Further, another member of the party can use area augmented Damp Power. Your initial assault can be neutralized by people who had no reason to even attempt a defense simply because they have immediate actions on the menu. You might as well have announced yourselves with trumpets for all the good the ambush did you. Would you be a happy camper? If you are really concerned about having emergency defense in situations where your character can't act then use Contingency; that's what it was designed for. These two paragraphs defeat themselves. In retort to the first one, you could use the second: All those efforts could indeed be thwarted by a contingency spell. True, damp power and elan resilience are lower level options, but they are also less powerful/versatile ones, so not unbalanced if you compare. Besides, the sudden protection also comes at price (compare resilience with vigor, for instance), which means you made your opponent spend more resources thanks to your efforts, which is really what tactics is all about.
CrimsonDeath 07-18-07, 03:44 PM	Although it just now occurs to me... This means the catfall power (and by extension, the feather fall spell) is completely useless against pit traps or a fall resulting from a failed Climb check. Bummer. It should work just fine for a failed Climb check. You are, after all, in the middle of your own action most of the time you make a Climb check. Somehow, I can't imagine being flat-footed against something I, myself, did.
hovnarr 07-18-07, 04:49 PM	Somehow, I can't imagine being flat-footed against something I, myself, did. Thanks Crimson, this made me realize something. There actually is a rationale why a sentient creature can catch you off guard in a sense that a trap cannot - even though the effects produced by either are the same. If you're climbing, you're anticipating that you might fall. If you do, and you have the power to manifest catfall, you have prepared for exactly such an event. Under such circumstances, you can always protect yourself. Similarly, when you're walking in a dungeon, you're not on a stroll in the park eating ice cream - you're always anticipating that monsters could attack or that traps could spring up. That is why you get saving throws etc. However, a sentient creature who is aware of you (while you are unaware of it), can exploit momentary lapses in focus. Perhaps he strikes precisely when you look another way to see if something is hiding over there. A trap can't do that, so flat-footedness doesn't apply there (by the RAW). Yey, I have an explanation for the RAW that is satisfactory to me! The world is harmonious yet again.
The_Ditto 07-18-07, 05:02 PM	This brings to mind some thoughts with two spells from Spell Compendium .. Nerveskitter and Warning Shout. Both require an immediate action ... Nerveskitter, although seeming to be "useless" based on the rulings you provided does provide some specific text which could override the general .. (at least I think it does .. :tiphat: ) Warning Shout, however, contains no such "special text" ... so it seems a heck of a lot less useful now ... Only when the Paladin isn't surprised, the rest of the party is, and the Paladin rolls well for initiative ... :thinks: I wonder if there's any others out there??
AntiDjinn 07-18-07, 10:36 PM	These two paragraphs defeat themselves. In retort to the first one, you could use the second: All those efforts could indeed be thwarted by a contingency spell. True, damp power and elan resilience are lower level options, but they are also less powerful/versatile ones, so not unbalanced if you compare. Besides, the sudden protection also comes at price (compare resilience with vigor, for instance), which means you made your opponent spend more resources thanks to your efforts, which is really what tactics is all about. Not at all. Contingency is not another form of immediate action, but it is another way to prepare for the expected unexpected. It does not negate the efforts of an ambushing party, but if someone spent the time and XP to prepare a Contingency (and worded it correctly, so that is actually goes off) then think of it as using the action he spent last week in anticipation of an attack that he had reason to suspect would come, but just didn't know exactly when. In other words, the contingency-user does not suddenly nerf rounds of effort on the part of his opponents, he actually started working on the encounter days beforehand. Effectively, he launched a counter-measure a week ago.
Psikerlord 07-18-07, 10:47 PM	I agree the answer to being flat footed is contingency (trigger if I am attacked before my first initiative action = dimdoor or similar) and/or extended detect hostile intent (although foe needs to be relatively close by for that to work)
foxtail 07-19-07, 12:53 AM	Additionally, the sense danger power from Magic of Eberron allows you to use any one psionic power costing 1 pp (or more, if augmented) as an immediate action during the first round of combat, even if that round is a surprise round against you.
AntiDjinn 07-19-07, 01:18 AM	Sense Danger is odd. It is like a baby Contingency in that you have to know in advance when you will need to be able to respond to an ambush. Unlike Contingency it doesn't have an auto trigger; you have to spend a standard action manifesting it, then it functions for the next 10 minutes/level. Also unlike Contingency you don't have to specify your response, only how many points you may spend on it. It comes out cheaper than Quicken Power in most cases when you consider how many immediate powers you are going to get to use (depends on how many combats occur while it is up). When you are totally surprised, you won't already have it up because, by definition, if you manifest it then you are expecting an attack or other challenge soon and so should not be surprised when it comes. I suspect most PCs will manifest it whenever the DM is behind his screen rolling dice, consulting his adventure and monster books and chuckling. Hey, wait a second, that is it! The paranoid manifester's defense: Contingency: Sense Danger. The trigger wording could be a bit tricky (if your DM likes to crock wishes, then odds are he is good at crocking contingencies). "If am ambushed" might work, or it might go off if a cloud of mosquitoes descends on you. Once it goes off you would have the Sense Danger effect without spending a standard action to manifest it (or rather, you spent that action when you Contingencied it) and activation of a Contingency is not an action on your part. So you can take that immediate action during the surprise round and have your full Dex mod to AC instantly.
Jhaelen 07-19-07, 03:57 AM	And all immediate actions outside of combat may as well be swift actions?My understanding of this issue is a bit different. Outside of combat the concept of 'actions' is completely meaningless. If there is no initiative count, there's no need for tracking how long an action takes. I believe it's completely wrong to assume that everyone is permanently flat-footed outside of combat. Can anyone actually cite anything from the rules to support that view? Besides, I really dislike the way traps work in D&D. The rules don't make a lot of sense, requiring the trapfinding ability to detect 'complex' or magical traps is a cludge, the cost of creating traps is totally out of bounds, it's extremely unsatisfying to die because of a trap, and finally traps turn adventures into very tedious affairs. Traps just SUCK!
hovnarr 07-19-07, 07:31 AM	Not at all. Contingency is not another form of immediate action, but it is another way to prepare for the expected unexpected. It does not negate the efforts of an ambushing party, but if someone spent the time and XP to prepare a Contingency (and worded it correctly, so that is actually goes off) then think of it as using the action he spent last week in anticipation of an attack that he had reason to suspect would come, but just didn't know exactly when. In other words, the contingency-user does not suddenly nerf rounds of effort on the part of his opponents, he actually started working on the encounter days beforehand. Effectively, he launched a counter-measure a week ago. I agree to this concerning contingency, but you could also say that learning Intellect Fortress was a pre-emptive measure taken in advance. If you feel that either preparatory measure nerfs ambushes unduly, that's up to you. As for wording: The trigger wording could be a bit tricky (if your DM likes to crock wishes, then odds are he is good at crocking contingencies). "If am ambushed" might work, or it might go off if a cloud of mosquitoes descends on you. Actually, the best contingency trigger I've found is a spoken word of your choice. For example, use the trigger "whenever I say 'Bamboozle'". According to the RAW, you can speak at any time, it is not an action as long as the phrase is short, and you can do it when it's not your turn. An even better option that needs to be OKd with your DM (though it should be OK) is to not actually have a spoken trigger, but let the very thought of a word such as 'Bamboozle' be the trigger. This circumvents wandering unassumingly into a silenced area or something. The only thing that can prevent your contingency from triggering is if you walk into an AMF/NPF without realizing until it's too late. But you can use a simple Continual Light spell or similar continous visible effect as a "canary bird" to circumvent this. The best thing to put in your contingency is Temporal Acceleration. Augmented and/or extended preferably - it's still a 6th level power so it fits. And then you can do what you want. Incoming fireball? "BAMBOOZLE!" it is, and then you buff as you please before the fireball resolves. Or just teleport away. Trap? Not before you can think BAMBOOZLE, and do what you want for a few rounds. And so it goes. I believe it's completely wrong to assume that everyone is permanently flat-footed outside of combat. Agreed.