Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Magocrat 01-11-07, 09:36 AM	Immediate Power Point Acquisition I've decided to remove this from the boards, because no one looks at it and I might use this.
Witch 01-11-07, 09:39 AM	This is far too limiting with regards as to how many power points one can use in a turn (or even two.)
Magocrat 01-11-07, 10:25 AM	Would you care to diverge on your comment? If you clarify, I might be able to handle your proposed problem. Because I must confess that I can't tell what you are trying to say with your comment. And comprehension of your post might be handy, I think.
Witch 01-11-07, 10:31 AM	What I mean is - a power that is effective for your level costs your manifester level to manifest. In other words, the only power points left would be your int modifier. You would barely be able to quicken any power, as you've already spent the majority of them on one power. You'd now need to take a round doing -nothing- offensive (unless you have the feat) to be able to decently manifest another power.
JayceMD 01-11-07, 10:57 AM	First: you're essentially restricting manifesters to one useful action every other round. By this rule, a manifester has to spend one round out of every two doing nothing if he doesn't want to be a glorified commoner. Meanwhile, battle is raging around the manifester while he stands there with a dazed look on his face and his companions are wondering why they bothered bringing this albatross along with them in the first place. Second: in order for a manifester to do something every round, he has to take the Accelerate Acquisition feat, which violates the Feats Should Be Nice Not Required rule. Even if a manifester does take the feat, he's limited to an extremely limited power point expenditure each round. He's going to be tossing out effects at half his manifester-level while facing opponents who, by the CR guidelines, should be subjected to full-manifester effects. In essence, a 10th-level manifester will be restricted to 5 pp effects, while any wizards around will be gleefully tossing out the equivalent of 10 pp effects. Third: manifesters will be completely useless in any surprise attack. Your pp-holding rules make it impossible for a manifester to have any useful actions in the first round of combat if the party is attacked without warning. A manifester who gets to act in a surprise round can do nothing but stand around sucking up attacks of opportunity while he tries to get pp. Fourth: you completely gimp psychic warriors, who live and die by their buffs. A psywar won't get 2 pp per meditation until 8th level, which means that all of their Standard+Move and Standard+Swift power combos are thrown out the window. Plus, you're restricting psywars to power effects that are too low for their level. An 8th level psywar has to spend a full action plus a standard action to get enough power points to manifest a 5 pp power, which he can do in the third round, finally getting to act in the FOURTH round. If the psywar takes the AA fest, he can manifest the power in the second round (taking a full action plus a move action to get the pp and manifesting the power with a standard action), which means he gets to actually do something in the third round. Who would ever play one? Fifth: grapplers will completely obliterate all manifesters. All it will take is a singler grappler to negate a manifester. Grapplers are already the bane of spellcasters and manifesters. By the rules that you've proposed, a grappler becomes an automatic trump card that is more effective than a Null Psionics Field. In short, these rules nerf manifesters so badly that you'd do better to just remove psionics from your campaign altogether.
Tempest Stormwind 01-11-07, 11:02 AM	I think this can be worked mechanically if people look at it differently. I mean, with a few changes, this would concievably work as a method of retooling psionics to a per-encounter setup. People have tried in the past and never managed to pull it off. I'll write more on this when I'm on coffee break rather than steal time from my project, though.
Witch 01-11-07, 11:29 AM	There would need to be a change as to how many are acquired, imo.
Magocrat 01-11-07, 12:10 PM	Now we're getting somewhere. To quote a particularly particular robot: "Input!" Witch: I think that decreasing the meditating time to a move action would be a great leap towards fixing the problem you brought to light. Of course, the Accelerate Acquisition feat would then reduce the meditating time to a swift action, but if the problem is really that bad, I think it'd be a good feat, but less important (which also addresses JayceMD's second point, but I'll get to that in a moment). And also, what are your suggestions for the number of power points you can acquire with each meditation? The way I see it, that would also address the problem of how much you can do with your time in combat. By the way, I apologize if I sounded like I was angry towards you. JayceMD: Ho boy, you've brought something to the table there. Let me take a good look at your post, so that I may improve the immediate power point acquisition with it. First: I addressed this comment in my reply to Witch, but if you want to diverge further on it, feel free. Second: Yikes, that gives a good throat-grabbing way of realizing how weak a psionic character would be under these rules. The FSBNR-rule should indeed be amended, and I think that the reply to Witch also illustrates that point well. Third: The thread where I originally had the idea was chock full of that type of encounter analyses as well. Again, changing the meditating time to a move action would probably solve this problem as well. Fourth: Yikes, that's a problem there, as well. I should think that one over a bit more. The reason why I gave the psychic warrior a smaller acquisition rate was because of his lower power points and power level. I do want to keep the psychic warrior's acquisition rate lower than the psion's, so I will have to think it over. Fifth: I should've stated that this meditation is a purely mental action; therefore, a simple DC 20 Concentration check would be in order to solve that problem. In this case, a psionic character under these rules would be in twice as much trouble, but he wouldn't be totally negated. Also, these rules weren't meant to replace the original rules, they are optional. Think Unearthed Arcana. Anyways, keep up the constructive criticism, it helps.
Lycanthromancer 01-11-07, 12:33 PM	Better would be to make pp acquisition a free action each round, and you gain 2x your manifester level in pp with each acquisition, with a maximum number of pp in your pool as the amount you can acquire each round. Give feats that increase the amount gained at later levels, such as 3x your manifester level (as bonus feats, preferably, or class features). You have to allow for metapsionics, Quickened powers, and powers like Temporal Acceleration, else it doesn't work. Otherwise, NOBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS would want to play a manifester, rather than a caster.
Magocrat 01-11-07, 04:00 PM	As of now, the immediate power point acquisition rules have undergone the following changes: Meditating takes a move-equivalent action (or a swift action with Accelerate Acquisition). Your manifesting ability modifier is added to your power point acquisition. The Accelerate Acquisition feat has been changed to reflect the changes listed above. Does this 'fix' the initial problems with this system? That is, were the problems that you first mentioned now solved to your satisfaction?
Lycanthromancer 01-11-07, 04:26 PM	I hate to say this, but given this system, I'd rather play a wizard. And I hate wizards.
angellis_ater 01-12-07, 09:55 AM	Ok, first of all I like the idea of creating a Per Encounter basis but what we need is a "base power points" - the amount of PP a player starts each encounter with. This allows them to react to surprise attacks without being nerfed. Second of all, we need to divide up Meditation into Swift, Move and Standard actions - each one providing a set variable of Power Points to "recharge" Example: Psion Swift = ½ Manifester lvl of power points Psion Move = Manifester lvl Psion Standard = 1½x Manifester level So, if a Psion "recharges" for an entire round, they get 3x their Manifester level in power points Something to build off perhaps?
Magocrat 01-16-07, 01:35 PM	First of all, I'd like to thank everybody for their constructive criticism. That really made this a worthwhile attempt. Lycanthromancer: That's the second post that you've been utterly negative about my attempt. Do you see anything positive in it, at all? angellis_ater: As you can see, I have adapted your suggestion into the actual text of the rule, with one exception: Taking a full-round action acquires twice your manifester level in power points, not three times. This is because I think that it would be a bit too much to have three times your manifester level in power points, and because I adhere to the rule that a character can, under normal circumstances, take two move actions in a round, but not two standard actions. Otherwise, innocent bump.
Lycanthromancer 01-16-07, 01:55 PM	Lycanthromancer: That's the second post that you've been utterly negative about my attempt. Do you see anything positive in it, at all?Sorry, but not really. It makes manifesters pretty well worthless, in many respects. It increases their endurance, yes, but they can't actually DO anything with it. Actions are the currency of D&D, and if you have to waste all of them (a la DBZ powering-up sequences), then your enemies will have either killed you by then or will be dead before you can even do anything about them. You might be able to fire something off, but since you're eating up your swift, immediate, and move actions, you can't use any power with a manifesting time shorter than 1 standard action. And you can't manifest powers longer than 1 round either, as your pp have already dissipated before you can pull it off. This means that you can't use Quicken Power, either. Nor can you manifest more than one decent power per round. You might be able to manifest a standard action power and a move action power, but given your pitiful number of power points available, it just won't be worth it, unless you have non-augmenting powers. And it allows for absolutely no tactical movement at all. Once you're positioned somewhere, you're rooted to the spot, and can't do ANYTHING. That, and I can see Hustle being abused like there's no tomorrow. Kind of like 3.0 psionics; extremely weak until you've got a few combos down, and then it will blow everything else away. I just can't see this working, as is. It would need a SERIOUS overhaul before I'd even consider using a character subject to it. I could see what I could come up with to fix it, but it would likely be a whole new system, rather than an appendectomy to what you already have. [edit] And my apologies for being so terse. There's no excuse for it, regardless of justification. You have been polite in your posts here, and I apologize.
Magocrat 01-17-07, 02:05 PM	Apologies accepted. You're just critic about my work, that's okay. Heck, if my work would only be praised, it wouldn't get so many chances to improve upon it. Anyway, I'll try to reply to your post, piece-by-piece. Actions are the currency of Dungeons & Dragons, agreed. Also, you are in danger when meditating, agreed. However, you can meditate for power points in one round to use them on another round. This demands some strategy on the player's behalf, but then again, I must admit that this is for the psionics veterans. About your comment on manifesting powers with a manifesting time longer than 1 round, that will be fixed. I had it on my mind before, but you brought it to my attention again. Thank you for that. Also, I might be mistaken, but there aren't that many powers that have a manifesting time shorter than 1 standard action (if you reason that a move action lasts shorter than a standard action), so I'll let that argument drop into the background, unless you want to give me some food for thought on that one. As I said above, you aren't rooted to the ground. You can always take a move action to move around, provided you don't use a double move action to meditate. And if you really wanted it, you could just spend a swift and a standard action to gain those power points (albeit at the cost of provoking two attacks of opportunity). And I must admit that I haven't looked at the hustle power when thinking of this system. However, you spend 5 (or 3 for a psychic warrior) power points to gain a move action to meditate, that means that you still lose those 5 power points, while you could have gained a maximum of 10 power points if you had just used that action to meditate. Granted, it's a difference of 5 power points. But at 20th level, there are probably more ways of increasing the number of power points gained from meditation (like the new feats). And as for the latter comments, I'll just not comment on that.
hunterc311 01-17-07, 07:14 PM	Meditation, to me, is something you have to actually settle down into doing and should not take less than at least a minute. Making it take 1-2 seconds (swift action) is absurd; that's not meditation in any sense of the concept. That's more like, I close my eyes for 1 second and get back power points. I can't agree with that at all, from a purely conceptual standpoint.
The_Ditto 01-17-07, 08:28 PM	You can safely hold this mental energy for a number of rounds equal to your manifesting ability modifier. I see this as a key problem to this thing ... Problem is as people have pointed out ... you start an encounter ... and have to start by "powering up" .. in the meantime, other casters have already flattened the opposition and you're a glorified floor lamp .. It reminds me of Mr. Furious from Mystery men ... I swear, if they had just given him enough time to "power up" those bad guys would really have been sorry!!! :tantrum: A "caster/manifester" running about with no ability to "cast/manifest" is a pretty useless member of the party ... Just some random points ... a) Warlocks have unlimited endurance, and don't have to "power up" ... b) Round durations mean that it's for a combat and cannot be carried over. c) (b) implies each combat begins with nothing ... so first few rounds are a wash I have 2 recomendations: 1) Increase the duration they can hold their pps from "rounds" to "1 hour" ... period ... This gives them the ability to "refresh their pool by meditating every half hour" ... and have the ability to actually "do something useful" in the first round or two of combat ... I'd also increase the pool they could store ... too restrictive is bad ... you're gimping them for no real reason ... 2) Forget the whole thing and just create a psionic Warlock ... that's what you're really trying to do anyway ... and I think you/we'd have better luck pulling that off ... :tiphat:
Magocrat 01-18-07, 01:42 PM	hunterc311: Well, that's just a naming problem. I don't know if you have read the 'Truenaming Psionics' thread, but they also want to change the names of psionic powers, because they sound too sci-fi (I'm with what that thread wants to accomplish, Dungeons & Dragons is fantasy after all). So, if you want, you might as well 'truename' meditating to... 'focusing', or whatever suits you best. But then again, anything can be changed in Dungeons & Dragons. That's what house rules are for. The Ditto: Okay, let me just say this clearly and polite, once: This is my attempt at creating an immediate power point acquisition ruleset. I'm open to changing the workings of the rules, but I don't want to make a completely new ruleset. And I would appreciate it if people stopped asking me this. Thank you for your patience. Also, don't make any assumptions you can't back up. The idea for this ruleset came from a spellcaster who used mana and acquired it with similar mechanics. However, Tempest Stormwind suggested a psionic variant, and I followed through. So the psionic warlock is straight out. Now that we've gotten that over with, let me sift through your reply. At the beginning of the combat, you may have as much power points as your manifesting ability score - 10 (up to your maximum reserve). For example, a psion with an Intelligence of 16 can have up to 6 power points ready at all times. So he's not totally useless in an ambush. Also, whenever the manifester can prepare himself for an encounter, he can buff himself and his party, and already acquire power points, so he can nova early on, doing what casters do. So it just needs a little bit of brains to work, but any character class needs that. Those random points... don't seem to carry enough meaning to really tell me something. As I said, you can hold a small reserve in an ambush, and a larger one whenever you can prepare (which depends on your Dungeon Master). I'll consider the first recommendation, but I don't think that I will implement it. Of course, I'm always open to arguments. And for the second recommendation, see the first line of my reply to you.
Kangsthegreen 01-18-07, 02:07 PM	For alternative solution. (I only read it to half way so if its already mentioned sorry) Also this is just a suggestion. You can use old system(2nd edition) for power points. In basics you get power points based on your rest. If you rested for 1 hour you get 1/8 of your maximum pp. So you still need 8 hour rest to get full pp if you depleted your power point reserve. There is also a non weapon proficiency(equvalent to feats and skills, i think this one equal to a feat), i can't remeber the name but it allows you to get double pp per hour of meditatin so you replenish your depleted pp reserve with 4 hours of meditation.
Magocrat 01-19-07, 01:50 PM	I think that what I have done now is a nice compromise to the suggestions given. I added a variant rule (in the spoiler block), which allows you to meditate longer to hold your reserve for a longer period of time. However, that system you, Kangsthegreen, mentioned with meditation dependent on the period of rest you had, seems interesting too. I'll consider it. (And you've seen that I sometimes add what I consider.) Here's to hoping that this satisfies those who gave the suggestion on that variant rule.
Magocrat 01-21-07, 07:31 AM	May I take the liberty to bump this thread? I think that I've got it just about right now, so could someone post something to assure me of that, or to provide constructive criticism, so I can make it better than it already is? Any comment is appreciated.
The_Ditto 01-21-07, 02:30 PM	Any comment is appreciated. the problem is this: You can safely hold this mental energy for a number of rounds equal to your manifesting ability score - 10 It's too short ... and your "variant" doesn't help too much ... Basically what you're saying is: "Hey, you, Mr. Psion .. you have to constantly be meditating in order to have any PP to be able to do anything .." Seriously ... think about it ... I have a psion .. he's constantly "meditating" so he can regain PP so that he has a pool to work with at any time ... That just seems .. well "silly" to me ... .. but maybe that's just me ... *shrug* :raincloud Yeah .. I think I'll just stick with a sorcerer ... they're less work, and can do more with shorter notice ... :waits:
Magocrat 01-21-07, 03:10 PM	I've made a spellcasting ruleset similar to this ruleset. It didn't have that duration, so that gave me food for thought. So I decided to completely scrap the duration for the holding of power points. You can consider this version 1.5. Basically, it seems fair enough. Also, if you're curious about my spellcasting ruleset, it can be found in my signature, in the 'My creations' spoiler block. (What? Can't I shamelessly plug my creations between one another? :rolleyes:)
Lycanthromancer 01-21-07, 03:18 PM	How does this work with Bestow Power? And cognizance crystals?
Magocrat 01-21-07, 04:00 PM	Bestow power functions as usual, but the target can't gain more power points than it normally has. However, if you use this ruleset, you should give every psionic character this ruleset (which seems to be reasonable). If that is done, the effect of bestow power is actually lost. Cognizance crystals basically increase the limit of power points of the manifester, except that he can't use these power points to augment the powers that he manifests with his own pool of power points, as usual. This makes them more powerful for manifesters under this ruleset, but other psionic items become less influential, because the manifester has a limitless number of power points at his disposal. The only thing limiting him is his maximum power point storage.
The_Ditto 01-22-07, 11:15 AM	I've made a spellcasting ruleset similar to this ruleset. It didn't have that duration, so that gave me food for thought. So I decided to completely scrap the duration for the holding of power points. You can consider this version 1.5. Basically, it seems fair enough. Also, if you're curious about my spellcasting ruleset, it can be found in my signature, in the 'My creations' spoiler block. (What? Can't I shamelessly plug my creations between one another? :rolleyes:) Of course you can plug them!!! :D Thanks for the link, I wasn't aware of your spellcaster one ... Mind if I compare? number of spell levels may not exceed your caster level + your spellcasting ability modifier at any time. 2 Quick baseline checks: 1st level wizard with Int 18 = 5 spell levels (seems a bit high, doesn't it?) 10th level wizard with Int 22 = 16 spell levels. Since a spell level typically equates to roughly double minus 1 PP ... (ie level 5 = (5*2)-1 = 9 pp) ... we expect similar ballpark estimates for psionics. Your number of power points may not exceed your twice manifester level + twice your manifesting ability modifier 2 Quick baseline checks: 1st level psion with Int 18 = 10 pp (Seems close to our estimate - still seems a bit high though for a first level character .. hehe) 10th level psion with Int 22 = 32 pp Hmm, so yeah, it seems inline ... but it does seem to be a bit high at lower levels ... I wonder if that's a concern or not ... Casting a spell requires the release of gathered magical energy, and it is nearly impossible to repeatedly release large amounts of arcane energy. Whenever you cast a spell of the three highest levels of spells that you can cast, the highest level of spells that you can cast is lowered by 1d4. At the beginning of each round, your highest spell level increases by 1 I'm curious ... this is a neat idea .. where's the similar mirror for psionics? If anything, I'd expect it for psionics, and not spell casters ... strangely enough .. ;) But yeah ... it does seem pretty on-par with your magic version ... I remain skeptical, however, simply because it seems to greatly increase the power level of spell casters .. and as a side effect, will reduce the effectiveness of non-spell casters .. such as fighters and such ... (think long term buffs or other long duration spells/powers) .. but again .. that's just me ... :tiphat:
CrimsonDeath 01-22-07, 04:30 PM	Hmm, so yeah, it seems inline ... but it does seem to be a bit high at lower levels ... I wonder if that's a concern or not ... I don't think so. The wizard still has a cap on the level of spell he can cast, and a limit on the number of actions he can use in a round. The psion has a limit on the number of PP he can spend on a single power, and the number of actions he can use in a single round. Even if the character has at least one spell/power usable as each of a standard, move, and swift/immediate action, he can still only use three of those spells/powers per round. The biggest difference is that, if the psion/wizard needs to go nova, the level 1 character can keep going longer without meditating again.
Magocrat 07-12-07, 02:28 PM	I think I'd bump this thread. Heck, it's been half a year. Let's hope anyone will reply to this thread, so that I can improve upon this idea. Is immediate power point acquisition eligible for psionics that are balanced per encounter? Or does this idea lack the balance?
Magocrat 07-17-07, 05:07 PM	Erm, I'd like to bump this thread. If anyone could criticize this work, then I can improve upon it.