Post/Author/DateTime	Post
glug 06-29-07, 05:10 PM	My psion buddy was discussing all of the wonderful things he wants to do with his character in my game, and we stumbled across something that seemed a little powerful.. While wizard spells tend to have, up to a point, damage increases based on caster levels, psions have a number of first level spells that increase in power based on power points spent. With the limit they can spend, that balances it out a bit. However... Setting the 'manifester level' when crafting, by augmenting a power while crafting, seems to be a little broken when combined with the first-level spells that scale so easily. We couldn't find anything in Complete Psion to refute this from the SRD (and presumably the XPH). It sounds like if a level 9 psion wants to craft a number of scrolls that allow for 9d6 damage of any energy type Energy Ray.. he only need spend 9xp. That's 1 xp per every d6 he wants to pump into his 1st level flat augmentation powers. That's it. Whereas a wizard has powers that cap out at 6d6, 10d6 and such, forcing them to work with much more expensive higher level scrolls, a psion could basically put together the damage equivalent of disintegrate scrolls on the cheap. Are we reading this wrong? Is that the RAW? Do you use the rules this way, or force a "power level alteration" of 1 per 2 pp spent augmenting a power?
SilentOne 06-29-07, 05:17 PM	Per RAW, there's no limit on this, but I'd be tempted personally to impose the same limit that are on dorjes, where the effective power level increases, thereby increasing the cost of making the item (though not save DCs or anything when the power is manifested later) To create a power stone, a character needs a supply of incense and fine etching tools, the cost of which is subsumed in the cost of encoding the power stone—12.5 gp × the level of the power × the level of the manifester. All materials used to imprint a power stone must be fresh and unused. A character must pay the full cost for encoding each power stone no matter how many times she previously has imprinted the same power. The creator must know the power or powers to be imprinted in the power stone (or must have the power available in some other form). If manifesting the power would reduce the manifester’s experience point total, she pays the cost upon beginning the power stone in addition to the experience point cost for making the power stone itself. The act of encoding triggers the power as if it had been manifested, costing the character an appropriate number of power points. Encoding a power stone requires one day for each 1,000 gp of the base price. Item Creation Feat Required: Imprint Stone. To create a dorje, a character needs a small supply of materials, the most obvious being a chunk of crystal or the crystal shards of the dorje to be carved from or assembled. The cost of the materials is subsumed in the cost of creating the dorje—375 gp × the level of the power × the level of the manifester. Dorjes are always fully charged (50 charges) when created. If an augmentable power is incorporated into a dorje at a higher manifester level than the minimum level required to manifest the power, each discharge of the power from the dorje is augmented to the limit of that higher manifester level. Alternatively, if you want to have a higher manifester level in the dorje, you must pay for the dorje as if the power was one level higher for each additional two manifester levels you want. For example, energy missile is a 2nd-level kineticist power with a minimum manifester level of 3rd. If you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of 8th (five higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if energy missile was a 5th-level power. The creator must know the power or powers to be imprinted in the dorje (or must have the power available in some other form). If manifesting the power would reduce the manifester’s experience point total, she pays the cost (multiplied by 50) upon beginning the dorje in addition to the experience point cost for making the dorje itself. The act of working on the dorje costs a number of power points per day equal to the power point cost of the power that is being embedded in the crystal of the dorje. Crafting a dorje requires one day for each 1,000 gp of the base price. Item Creation Feat Required Craft Dorje. Emphasis mine.
Bacris 06-29-07, 06:16 PM	Technically, encoding a power stone has no mechanics for augmenting the power encoded within, so you can't augment the power within, only change the manifester level... But I agree with SilentOne and would use the Dorje rules if allowing power stones to have augmented powers.
kyeudo 06-29-07, 06:38 PM	Thats something that I never noticed before. A 1st level power stone of crystal shard deals the same damage as a 20th level power stone of crystal shard. Very odd.
glug 07-03-07, 01:56 PM	Hrm.. you're right.. there isn't anything in there about augmenting a power when creating the stone. Hrm again... Page 40 of the xph does say that augmenting a power increases the manifester level side of the equation for all items, and uses dorje's as an example, where a second level power augmented with an additional 6 points, it strangely says that the minimum manifester level would be 6, and the power level remains 2. (Strangely, because that would be 9 pp spent for a 2nd level + 6 augmented). So unless this was eratta'd, it would lead me to believe that you can augment any psitem, and it will change only the ML side of the equation, contrary to how that looks for specifically dorjes in the SRD. Additionally, on page 158, under using these items, here's the text. I hope I'm not breaking any laws here, so yell at me if I am: Powers stored in power completion items are usually not augmented, because the manifester level of such an item is assumed to be the minimum necessary to manifest the stored power. However, an item's description may specify otherwise (some power stones have manifester levels higher than the minimum required to manifest the stored power, and are then assumed to be augmented as well). Given this, it seems perfectly reasonable to pay next to nothing (1xp) per d6 you're adding to an energy ray power stone. Yes, I'll probably go with 2pp=1lvl because it's the obvious way to balance this. Still a bit confused as to how this could've been the intent.
The_Ditto 07-03-07, 02:32 PM	Huh? :confused: Maybe I'm missing something .. but ... 1st level power: crystal shard. 5th level manifester. Imprint stone: 1 * 5 * 25 = 125 gp base Damage = 5d6 1st level spell: burning hands. 5th level caster. Scribe scroll: 1 * 5 * 25 = 125 gp base Damage = 5d4 What's the issue again?? Is it just that the psionic "version" of the above can continue to scale beyond the arcane? (ie burning hands "caps" at 5d4 ... ) I've seen arguments going both ways (re: dorje) in the 1st level power nth level manifester ... vs the bump the power level for every 2 manifester levels ... *shrug*. What our group finally did (I think we read somebody's idea on here - can't recall) was you could "augment" up to +5 of the minimum without affecting the base power level. So, technically, you could get a 6d6 crystal shard for: 1 * 6 * 25 = 150 in a power stone. but for 7d6, you'd need to "bump" to a 2nd level power: 2 * 7 * 25 = 350 8d6 would still calc of a 2nd level power: 2 * 8 * 25 = 400 and 9d6 would step up to a 3rd level power ... .. etc. similar to the rules in the book .. but with a minor (house rule) "tweak". Seems to work fine ... :tiphat:
CrimsonDeath 07-03-07, 02:40 PM	Note that the example of creating an augmented dorje doesn't work. An 8th-level manifester can't create dorjes of 9th-level powers, because an 8th-level manifester can't manifest 9th-level powers. If we're to follow the precedent set by the exaple-- that every 2PP augmentation or part thereof increases the effective level of the power-- then a psion can only create a dorje of the minimum ML, minimum +2, or minimum +4. Psychic warriors, meanwhile, cannot create augmented dorjes at all. Furthermore, I don't know why this rule exists. Why would a ML 7 dorje of Energy Bolt cost more than a CL 7 wand of Lightning Bolt? They do the same number of dice of damage. Maybe it's because of the increased save DC...
crizhII 07-03-07, 03:56 PM	Maybe it's because of the increased save DC... Yes it would appear to be the case that a +2 or +3 to the DC is worth doubling/tripling or more the cost of the item. Having just looked this up however I see a difference from 3rdEd I hadn't noticed previously which pretty much nerfs wands as far as I'm concerned. Previously it was just randomly discovered wands et al that were assumed to have a minimum DC. Now, it seems, all wands etc are required to have a minimum DC. To be honest I don't think I would ever craft a Wand of Fireballs using those rules. By the time I could afford to do so (11250gp for a CL5 wand is a big chunk of wealth at level 10, 22500gp for a CL10 is ludicrous) a fixed DC of 14 makes the item worthless. Dorje of Mind Thrust (ML20) 20D10 untyped damage DC11 Will for none. :weep: Well worth 15000gp. Not. Don't even get me started on what it (kinda, maybe, I think you do it this way, the errata doesn't make any sense and doesn't fix the fact that the examples contradict each other) should cost according to the EPH. Worst case scenario it comes out at 165000gp. Dang near Epic. DC11 for none.... :D :D :D I think I'll be reaching for my Psicrown now... Of course the pricing rules for them are even worse than for Dorjes. They are variously contradictory, flat wrong, confusing and not errata'd. To my mind Psionics is getting the shaft pretty badly with the lack of free scaling on Damage. The only up side is the DC scaling, which while not free, is at least a minor bonus. I don't see why that should be an excuse for giving psionic item-creation the shaft also. Why, exactly, should an ML5 Dorje of Grease cost three times what a CL5 Wand of Grease costs? Of course it's being costed as if Grease were a 3rd lvl power, because of the scaling DC Grease doesn't have, so using the text relating to saves on EPH p159 I could argue that the save DC's are now 14 because of the boost to it's effective power level, even though it doesn't have a DC augment and that the Dorje could be crafted by a level 5 Psion with an INT of 11 who can only manifest Grease with a DC of 11. (Joking BTW :D . Well half joking at any rate. I wonder what the LA of a Half-Joke might be....)
CrimsonDeath 07-03-07, 07:23 PM	Dorje of Mind Thrust (ML20) 20D10 untyped damage DC11 Will for none. :weep: Actually, according to the crafting rules, the ML of a dorje of Mind Thrust is capped at 6. (Although, since that would apparently somehow make it equivalent to a 4th level power, there's no manifester who could actually craft it.)
Fleem 07-05-07, 09:49 AM	Actually, according to the crafting rules, the ML of a dorje of Mind Thrust is capped at 6. (Although, since that would apparently somehow make it equivalent to a 4th level power, there's no manifester who could actually craft it.) Why couldn't a manifester craft it? I can understand why they wouldn't, though.
crizhII 07-05-07, 10:22 AM	Why couldn't a manifester craft it? I can understand why they wouldn't, though. I think he meant 6th level manifester. At level 6 you can make an item that is of an 'effective' power level that you are not yet able to manifest.