Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RazielK 08-13-07, 10:16 PM	Does Improved Metapsionics apply to each individual Metapsionic feat put on a power or to them all? I.E. If I have 2 Improved Metapsionics and I decide to Maximize and Twin a power does the power point cost increase by 1 or 2?
unusualsuspect 08-13-07, 10:23 PM	Uh... Where is this Improved Metapsionics feat from?
RazielK 08-13-07, 10:28 PM	Expanded Psionics Handbook.
DisposableHero_ 08-13-07, 10:45 PM	As its wording is confusing because it refers to "Metapsionic Powers" in terms that one could assume from the first reference that it refers to "Power Enhanced by Metapsionic Feats" but in the second reference it seems to be referring to the feats itself. There are two interpretations one could use: 1) They mean powers enhanced by metapsionics, in which case a clearer wording would be: Benefit: Powers you manifest that are enhanced by metapsionic feats cost 2 power points less than normal (to a minimum of 1 power point). For example, an unaugmented Quickened Energy Ray would cost 5 powers points instead of 7. This feat has no effect on powers enhanced by metapsionic feats that inflate the power point cost by 2 points. 2) They mean metapsionic feats used to enhance your powers, in which case a clearer wording would be Benefit: The power point cost to apply a metapsionic feat to a power you manifest is reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 1 additional power point). For example a Quickened power would cost 4 additional power points to manifest rather than 6. This feat has no effect on metapsionic feats that inflate the power point cost by 2 points. Either one is an acceptable interperetation, the former would apply once per power, the latter once per metapsionic feat applied. For those who are confused this feat is found in the section marked Epic Psionic Character in the classes section of the XPH.
RazielK 08-13-07, 10:56 PM	So if one is using the former interpretation they could just take 3 Improved Psionics and only have to pay 1 power point per Metapsionic feat added on.
Tedronai 08-14-07, 12:05 AM	That would be the case using the second interpretation. Using the first interpretation (applying to the end power, not each modifying feat applied to that power), you would pay up to 6 less if you take that feat 3 times, minimum 1 (2 if that is the largest cost feat used). A Quickened, Twinned Energy Ray (unaugmented) would cost 7 ppts Based on the limitation that 'This feat has no effect on metapsionic powers that inflate the cost by only 2 power points.', I am inclined to believe that it is intended to refer to each feat individually, but strictly speaking ends up referring to the end result only. Since, normally, one can only apply one metapsionic feat to any given power at a time, this would not normally be an issue, but since you're epic, that isn't much of a restriction anymore.
RazielK 08-14-07, 12:13 AM	I agree that it is based on each Metapsionic feat. I cannot find anywhere that it says pre-epic you can only use 1 metapsionic feat on a power. The only restriction is only being able to pay power points up to your manifester level.
unusualsuspect 08-14-07, 12:17 AM	I agree that it is based on each Metapsionic feat. I cannot find anywhere that it says pre-epic you can only use 1 metapsionic feat on a power. The only restriction is only being able to pay power points up to your manifester level. That, and the expending of your psionic focus (outside the Ardent's web enhancement, but that's a major sidetrack...). You need 2 psionic focuses to apply two metapsionic feats.
Tedronai 08-14-07, 02:15 AM	Pre-epic you can use up to 2 metapsionic feats on a single power every 2nd round through the use of 3 additional feats, provoking 2 attacks of opportunity for which a concentration check will not negate, nor any other ability I am aware of, and by engaging in no other move or standard actions (you'll still have swift, immediate, and free actions, so long as they do not also require the use of psionic focus - that means no quickened powers, either). (feats being Psionic Meditation, Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment) (actions taken being: focus psicrystal as a full-round action provoking AoOs, focus self as a move action provoking AoOs, manifest dual-metapsionic power possibly provoking AoOs) All in all, a losing proposition in most cases.
RazielK 08-14-07, 02:20 AM	And post epic? I haven't read any rules regarding that either.
runestar 08-14-07, 02:46 AM	Post epic, depends on how many times you take the epic psionic focus feat.
Vengeful_Deity 08-14-07, 01:18 PM	Speaking of Epic Psionics (I didn't want to create a new thread)... ...Is there any place I could find the Epic Bonus Power Point Progression? Or some way to figure it out. Edit: Nevermind. (Modifier/2)*Level Round down.
MindFlayerZoidberg 08-14-07, 01:50 PM	Psionic focus as a move action is an AoO? Does it state it in the XPH, or is that just something I am looking over?
Jaid 08-14-07, 02:04 PM	in any event, the AoO can be prevented by a concentration check. and it is possible to focus twice in a round and use a power, provided your DM allows you to focus your psicrystal as a move-equivalent action also. you use your move action for one, a swift action for hustle, use your second move action to focus again, and then use your standard action to manifest a power with 2 metamagics on it or otherwise expend focus twice. of course, this burns your swift action also, mind you... and that one power you're tossing with 2 metamagics had better be danged impressive to be worth it.
Bacris 08-14-07, 02:39 PM	Psionic focus as a move action is an AoO? Does it state it in the XPH, or is that just something I am looking over? Concentration check to gain psionic focus provokes AoO. Psionic meditation only changes the action - it doesn't affect the AoO. Ergo, it still provokes an AoO.
Vengeful_Deity 08-14-07, 03:33 PM	in any event, the AoO can be prevented by a concentration check. and it is possible to focus twice in a round and use a power, provided your DM allows you to focus your psicrystal as a move-equivalent action also. you use your move action for one, a swift action for hustle, use your second move action to focus again, and then use your standard action to manifest a power with 2 metamagics on it or otherwise expend focus twice. of course, this burns your swift action also, mind you... and that one power you're tossing with 2 metamagics had better be danged impressive to be worth it. Even if they don't, once you get Temporal Acceleration you can do this, and even more. (Swift) Temporal Acceleration -(Standard) Focus Psicrystal -(Move) Focus Self (Standard) Cast (Move) Focus Self But getting back to the OP: With two Improved Metapsionics... Maximize: 1 Twin: 2 ----- Total: +3 Cost Another question though... Would I be wrong in guessing that an Intensify Power feat would add 12PP to the cost?
BloodSpill 08-15-07, 09:01 AM	Speaking of Epic Psionics (I didn't want to create a new thread)... ...Is there any place I could find the Epic Bonus Power Point Progression? Or some way to figure it out. Edit: Nevermind. (Modifier/2)*Level Round down. Not quite. The bonus power point progression never goes beyond manifester level 20. Ever. Not even in Epic. Not without a houserule.
Tedronai 08-15-07, 01:50 PM	The rules in the EPH specifically state that psions gain no power points, or bonus power points, past 20th (class) level save for increases in their primary ability mod (retroactively increasing the bonus ppts they gained from pre-epic levels), and through feats. There is no concentration check to avoid an AoO from gaining focus, only from manifesting a power. The rules regarding Psicrystals gaining psionic focus specifically state that it is ALWAYS a full-round action to focus them.
lavekkia 08-15-07, 01:53 PM	Not quite. The bonus power point progression never goes beyond manifester level 20. Ever. Not even in Epic. Not without a houserule. You need (Epic) feats to increase your PP score: the first first time by 19, the second 21 and so on.
Bacris 08-15-07, 02:45 PM	There is no concentration check to avoid an AoO from gaining focus, only from manifesting a power. Sorry, but you're wrong :) You might want to re-read the rules on Concentration and using skills defensively :)
Vengeful_Deity 08-15-07, 03:06 PM	Not quite. The bonus power point progression never goes beyond manifester level 20. Ever. Not even in Epic. Not without a houserule. You sure? The psion’s manifester level is equal to his class level. The psion’s number of power points per day does not increase after 20th level, but the limit on power points spent on a metapsionic power is 19 (though feats such as Improved Manifestation extend this limit). Each time the psion achieves a new level, he learns a new power of any power level that he can manifest (according to his new level) that is within his primary discipline. Psions continue to gain bonus power points for high ability scores. Spell casters gain bonus spells/day when they gain the ability for 10th level spell slots and beyond. I guess it just isn't as clearly defined in the text as you are all stating it in this thread. Though now that I think about it, I have another question. Limit of Powerpoints spent on a Metapsionic power is 19? Does that mean, extra points spent or total? Does this include augmentation? If so, why no mention here? Powers Known: A psion begins play knowing three psion powers of your choice. Each time he achieves a new level, he unlocks the knowledge of new powers. Choose the powers known from the psion power list, or from the list of powers of your chosen discipline. You cannot choose powers from restricted discipline lists other than your own discipline list. You can choose powers from disciplines other than your own if they are not on a restricted discipline list. (Exception: The feats Expanded Knowledge and Epic Expanded Knowledge do allow a psion to learn powers from the lists of other disciplines or even other classes.) A psion can manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level. The number of times a psion can manifest powers in a day is limited only by his daily power points. Or Here? Augment: Many powers vary in strength depending on how many power points you put into them. The more power points you spend, the more powerful the manifestation. However, you can spend only a total number of points on a power equal to your manifester level, unless you have an ability that increases your effective manifester level. Many powers can be augmented in more than one way. When the Augment section contains numbered paragraphs, you need to spend power points separately for each of the numbered options. When a paragraph in the Augment section begins with “In addition,” you gain the indicated benefit according to how many power points you have already decided to spend on manifesting the power.
HoshiAdam 08-15-07, 03:19 PM	No Epic Bonus Power Progression Epic psionic characters do not gain additional bonus power points above 20th. They may still gain more power points as their key ability score increases. Psionic characters can take the Improved Manifestation feat, which grants them additional power points each time they take the feat. Epic manifesters can also take Epic Expanded Knowledge or Power Knowledge, which give them access to additional powers, and Epic Psionic Focus, which allows manifesters to use more than one metapsionic power each time they expend their psionic focus. They get more based on having a 20 ML and if they increase their ability scores.
BloodSpill 08-16-07, 01:04 AM	Isn't that what I typed? The words I typed were in the context of the calculation, not class levels.