Incarnate powers and augmentation (i.e., can you incarnate augmented danger sense?) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Incarnate powers and augmentation (i.e., can you incarnate augmented danger sense?) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JulesCARV
04-13-07, 03:32 PM Let's say you want to incarnate danger sense. Can you only incarnate the usual 5 pp danger sense, unaugmented, or can you manifest augmented danger sense to acquire a permanent improved uncanny dodge (or the like)?

Thanks.
red_scare87
04-13-07, 03:45 PM Edit:

Oh, I see what he means now.

D'oh!

Sorry about that.

Radical Taoist provided the answer below.
RadicalTaoist
04-13-07, 03:57 PM No, he means to make it permanent with the power Incarnate, the psionic equivalent of Permanency. Augments are made permanent as well, IIRC.
Racinante
04-13-07, 04:04 PM Let's say you want to incarnate danger sense. Can you only incarnate the usual 5 pp danger sense, unaugmented, or can you manifest augmented danger sense to acquire a permanent improved uncanny dodge (or the like)?

Thanks.

Unfortunately the rules are a bit unclear.

Let's compare the incarnation to a permanent psionic item of unaugmented danger sense.

Using craft universal item and assuming we place the power in the appropriate body slot, the cost would be:
2000*3*5=30,000 or 1,200 xp + 15,000 gp. Converting gp to XP at the 5 gp / 1 xp conversion, the total becomes 1,200 + 3,000 = 4,200 XP.

Since the corresponding price is higher for the item than for incarnating the power, I would rule that you get the power unaugmented.
Quoriil
04-13-07, 04:06 PM JulesCARV is refering to the power incarnate[/b], the psionic version of permanency and while I imagine you could manifest it in an augmented state and make it permanent. Being a great big jerk :P I'd be inclined to say that half of the cost of augmentation would be "bound up" in the incarnation... so for improved uncanny dodge (normally 6 points to augment [i]danger sense to this level) the manifester would 'lose' 3 power points, effectively suffering from a -3 pp penalty until the incarnate power was stripped from its recipient somehow.
JulesCARV
04-14-07, 05:26 PM Unfortunately the rules are a bit unclear.

Let's compare the incarnation to a permanent psionic item of unaugmented danger sense.

Using craft universal item and assuming we place the power in the appropriate body slot, the cost would be:
2000*3*5=30,000 or 1,200 xp + 15,000 gp. Converting gp to XP at the 5 gp / 1 xp conversion, the total becomes 1,200 + 3,000 = 4,200 XP.

Since the corresponding price is higher for the item than for incarnating the power, I would rule that you get the power unaugmented.

I have no problems with the ruling that the incarnate powers are unaugmented, but I have a bit of a quibble with your reasoning. Having an incarnate power means that anyone can dispel it. Dispel merely suppresses the effects of magic items for 1d4 rounds: it doesn't permanently negate them. If someone hits you with dispel magic and you have incarnate powers -- they're gone. (IMHO, there should be some provision making effects made permanent with incarnate/permanency a bit harder to dispel -- even if not impossible -- than normal buffs, but as written, they aren't. In fact, they retain a static ML as you go up, unless you renew them as you level up, spending experience each time.)

Then again, incarnate powers don't use up a magical item slot as they otherwise might.
munin
04-14-07, 07:19 PM I just increase the incarnate XP cost by 250 XP per point of augmentation.
Racinante
04-15-07, 12:48 PM I have no problems with the ruling that the incarnate powers are unaugmented, but I have a bit of a quibble with your reasoning. Having an incarnate power means that anyone can dispel it. Dispel merely suppresses the effects of magic items for 1d4 rounds: it doesn't permanently negate them. If someone hits you with dispel magic and you have incarnate powers -- they're gone.

True.

(IMHO, there should be some provision making effects made permanent with incarnate/permanency a bit harder to dispel -- even if not impossible -- than normal buffs, but as written, they aren't. In fact, they retain a static ML as you go up, unless you renew them as you level up, spending experience each time.)

Agreed, that is one reason I created Incarnation.

Then again, incarnate powers don't use up a magical item slot as they otherwise might.
Which would cause the figures to double in my original argument. So comparing 1,500XP for a dispellable permanent effect vs. 8,400XP for a non dispellable effect seems somewhat reasonable.

If I remember correctly, there is a section in one of the WOTC books for substituting material components in the construction of magic items. Here you would need to substitute the player's body for the component to get the permanent magical item effect (with the appropriate change to the costs). If you can find it, it may be a good replacement for incarnate/permanency.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 04-13-07, 03:32 PM	Let's say you want to incarnate danger sense. Can you only incarnate the usual 5 pp danger sense, unaugmented, or can you manifest augmented danger sense to acquire a permanent improved uncanny dodge (or the like)? Thanks.
red_scare87 04-13-07, 03:45 PM	Edit: Oh, I see what he means now. D'oh! Sorry about that. Radical Taoist provided the answer below.
RadicalTaoist 04-13-07, 03:57 PM	No, he means to make it permanent with the power Incarnate, the psionic equivalent of Permanency. Augments are made permanent as well, IIRC.
Racinante 04-13-07, 04:04 PM	Let's say you want to incarnate danger sense. Can you only incarnate the usual 5 pp danger sense, unaugmented, or can you manifest augmented danger sense to acquire a permanent improved uncanny dodge (or the like)? Thanks. Unfortunately the rules are a bit unclear. Let's compare the incarnation to a permanent psionic item of unaugmented danger sense. Using craft universal item and assuming we place the power in the appropriate body slot, the cost would be: 200035=30,000 or 1,200 xp + 15,000 gp. Converting gp to XP at the 5 gp / 1 xp conversion, the total becomes 1,200 + 3,000 = 4,200 XP. Since the corresponding price is higher for the item than for incarnating the power, I would rule that you get the power unaugmented.
Quoriil 04-13-07, 04:06 PM	JulesCARV is refering to the power incarnate[/b], the psionic version of permanency and while I imagine you could manifest it in an augmented state and make it permanent. Being a great big jerk :P I'd be inclined to say that half of the cost of augmentation would be "bound up" in the incarnation... so for improved uncanny dodge (normally 6 points to augment [i]danger sense to this level) the manifester would 'lose' 3 power points, effectively suffering from a -3 pp penalty until the incarnate power was stripped from its recipient somehow.
JulesCARV 04-14-07, 05:26 PM	Unfortunately the rules are a bit unclear. Let's compare the incarnation to a permanent psionic item of unaugmented danger sense. Using craft universal item and assuming we place the power in the appropriate body slot, the cost would be: 200035=30,000 or 1,200 xp + 15,000 gp. Converting gp to XP at the 5 gp / 1 xp conversion, the total becomes 1,200 + 3,000 = 4,200 XP. Since the corresponding price is higher for the item than for incarnating the power, I would rule that you get the power unaugmented. I have no problems with the ruling that the incarnate powers are unaugmented, but I have a bit of a quibble with your reasoning. Having an incarnate power means that anyone can dispel it. Dispel merely suppresses the effects of magic items for 1d4 rounds: it doesn't permanently negate them. If someone hits you with dispel magic and you have incarnate powers -- they're gone. (IMHO, there should be some provision making effects made permanent with incarnate/permanency a bit harder to dispel -- even if not impossible -- than normal buffs, but as written, they aren't. In fact, they retain a static ML as you go up, unless you renew them as you level up, spending experience each time.) Then again, incarnate powers don't use up a magical item slot as they otherwise might.
munin 04-14-07, 07:19 PM	I just increase the incarnate XP cost by 250 XP per point of augmentation.
Racinante 04-15-07, 12:48 PM	I have no problems with the ruling that the incarnate powers are unaugmented, but I have a bit of a quibble with your reasoning. Having an incarnate power means that anyone can dispel it. Dispel merely suppresses the effects of magic items for 1d4 rounds: it doesn't permanently negate them. If someone hits you with dispel magic and you have incarnate powers -- they're gone. True. (IMHO, there should be some provision making effects made permanent with incarnate/permanency a bit harder to dispel -- even if not impossible -- than normal buffs, but as written, they aren't. In fact, they retain a static ML as you go up, unless you renew them as you level up, spending experience each time.) Agreed, that is one reason I created Incarnation. Then again, incarnate powers don't use up a magical item slot as they otherwise might. Which would cause the figures to double in my original argument. So comparing 1,500XP for a dispellable permanent effect vs. 8,400XP for a non dispellable effect seems somewhat reasonable. If I remember correctly, there is a section in one of the WOTC books for substituting material components in the construction of magic items. Here you would need to substitute the player's body for the component to get the permanent magical item effect (with the appropriate change to the costs). If you can find it, it may be a good replacement for incarnate/permanency.