Incorporate Psionics?! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Incorporate Psionics?! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tarrandivinity
07-27-07, 06:22 PM I'm not all that vocal on the boards, i rarely do more than glance at them. The few times i have asked, i didn't get much help... but that won't detract me!

here is my story... i cut my teeth in ADND on the old DARK SUN world setting. i've always loved the concept of psionics. Finally i'm starting my own 3.5 campaign with psionics included. but i am just overwhelmed by the material which seems more like a terribly skewed version of magic to me than anything like the old psionics.

i've read through the 3.0 psionics book at least three times, and the 3.5 expanded version a couple also, and they read like stereo instruction in japanese.

so i'm seeking any advice on how to ease some higherlevel psionics into my game, starters are simple enough. but what about other psionic monsters and incorporating psionic treasures into the mix.

i'll admit in the ADND version i rarely ever used psionic items save for a few epic scale items and power stones [the batteries you make with metapsionics school].
tarrandivinity
07-27-07, 06:33 PM also i forgot...

i know the books give some common like examples of a pc following a certain progression of abilities. but if you could give some input on what some common 3.5 thugs and npcs, and the like might use.

and lastly...

when i said before about psionics for common monsters, i didn't mean like orcs and goblins-type common i meant like common mid level dungeon monsters, like vampires or minotaur, or the lieutenant in charge of the palace guard. that sort of thing.
Xaxor
07-27-07, 07:20 PM For starters, you only want the Expanded Psionics Handbook. The system is light-years ahead of 3.0 Psionics.

As for items, it's pretty much the same as Arcane/Divine, just with different names. A Power Stone is really just a Scroll. Tattoo's are just a take on potions. A Psion can use a Headband of Intellect just fine... it increases DCs just like spells, but it also grants bonus power points. There's a table right in the beginning of the book that lays it all out. Item creation is exactly the same as in the DMG, but there are some new abilities.
CrimsonDeath
07-27-07, 09:19 PM Note that, if the players want to craft some of the traditional Wondrous Items (such as the Headband of Intellect) as Miscellaneous Psionic Items (worst item creation feat name ever), or some of the traditional magic weapons (such as flaming swords) as psionic weapons, the DM needs to do a bit of work determining the appropriate power prerequisites. (In the above, Animal Affinity is a good prerequisite for the Headband, and any of the level 3 or higher Energy powers would probably work for the sword.) If it's a preexisting game with characters who have been doing just fine without psionics for a while, and you want to start dropping psionic items, I'd suggest allowing a character to activate psionic items like dorjes and power stones with the Use Magic Device skill. Otherwise, that psionic treasure is just going to get sold off.

If you intend to introduce a psionic character into the game, you'll probably want to glance at the FAQ. Also remember the single most important rule of psionics: You cannot spend more powerpoints on a single power than your manifester level. A level 5 psion can only spend 5PP on a single power (so no 10d10 Mind Thrusts at first level).
Thomar_of_Uointer
07-28-07, 02:00 AM i've read through the 3.0 psionics book at least three times, and the 3.5 expanded version a couple also, and they read like stereo instruction in japanese.
That's just the 3.0 Psionics Handbook. You want the 3.5 XPH, it's a totally different system (though the flavor sucks, see the Truenaming Psionics thread). You can also find a nice reference document here:
http://d20srd.org/

so i'm seeking any advice on how to ease some higherlevel psionics into my game, starters are simple enough. but what about other psionic monsters and incorporating psionic treasures into the mix.

Well, it depends. You have to decide if psionics is an underlying force in the world (like Dark Sun), or a minor oddity mostly practiced in other regions and imported to the main area of the campaign setting under special circumstances (like Eberron). The second is preferable if psionics is not integral to the setting, you just treat psionics like a foreign magic, preferably practiced by foreign races in foreign ways. Again, check out the Truenaming Psionics thread for ideas on how to incorporate it more fully.
DarkPawn
07-28-07, 02:02 AM That's just the 3.0 Psionics Handbook. You want the 3.5 XPH, it's a totally different system. You can also find a nice reference document here:
http://d20srd.org/

I'm curious, do you allow or use 3.0 book or powers? From what I've seen in the XPH, it is well balanced. Should I be worried about anything in 3.0?

A player in my campaign is using 3.0 and XPH, so just looking for a heads up.
Thomar_of_Uointer
07-28-07, 02:11 AM I'm curious, do you allow or use 3.0 book or powers? From what I've seen in the XPH, it is well balanced. Should I be worried about anything in 3.0?

A player in my campaign is using 3.0 and XPH, so just looking for a heads up.

The 3.0 psionics book is a natural 1 incarnate. Also, the two systems are generally incompatible (3.5 is based on things like psionic focus expenditure, power augmentation, and single-ability dependencies).
Tempest Stormwind
07-28-07, 02:19 AM Note that 3.0 + XPH is still perfectly compatible. If anything, the XPH will be a bit WEAK, because it was built with 3.5's changes to buff duration and spell save DCs (both of which were dramatically lowered in 3.5), not 3.0's balance standard.
MnemonicSV
07-28-07, 03:37 AM ...and power stones [the batteries you make with metapsionics school].

Ahhhhhh... good 'ole 2e receptacle. I miss that power (even though it was totally broken and abused), along with Empower to match.

Receptacles are now essentially cognizance crystals in 3.5e, and have strict limitations in regards to their abilities (ie: not broken anymore).

They always have a fixed power point capacity (always an odd number from 1 to 17). You can charge them up using your own power points, but you can't take the power points back later to replenish your reserve. When you manifest a power you either choose to use a cognizance crystal (if you have one with enough power points stored on it), or use your own pp reserve (you can't use more than one source at a time).

I've never liked the fact that you need a separate feat to create one (Craft Cognizance Crystal), but they still come in handy.

-----

Edit: I just noticed there is no mention of what kind of time or action is required to actually recharge a cognizance crystal. Never noticed that before.
The_One_Who_Walks
07-28-07, 01:23 PM Note that 3.0 + XPH is still perfectly compatible. If anything, the XPH will be a bit WEAK, because it was built with 3.5's changes to buff duration and spell save DCs (both of which were dramatically lowered in 3.5), not 3.0's balance standard.

As a general rule, Tempest, I have nothing but the highest respect and regard for your opinions, but in this, I must express confusion and disagreement. It's my understanding, having used both systems, that 3.0 psionics and 3.5 XPH were more or less an original and a conversion, much like the 3.0 and 3.5 PHBs. It seems to me that comparing 3.0 psioncs to 3.5 is much like comparing a 3.0 ranger to a 3.5 version, though admittedly perhaps in reverse, as far as power goes... By that I mean the theory is (for the most part...) the same, but the mechanics behind it are different enough that the one can't compare to the other. XPH is a much more elegant system, lacking the multi-ability dependency that 3.0 used, as well as eliminating "psionic combat" which, while I love the idea of, in my own experience was a somewhat obtuse mechanic that just slowed down the game and left anyone not playing a psionic character more or less totally out of the loop. Also, some of the feats in 3.0 were a bit... crazy. Inertial Armor was mage armor as a feat. Anyway, I digress. The 3.0 version of psionics, while not the game-breaking monstrosity a lot of DMs seemed to think it was, needed an overhaul desperately. And in the XPH, it found one. It's still not perfect, but it's as balanced as core, if not more so. Anyway, I've put in my :twocents:, and I feel like I'm rambeling now, so I'm going to stop, befor I irritate poeple, if I've not already...
Antendren
07-28-07, 01:41 PM You're not understanding what he's saying. He's talking about using the XPH in an otherwise 3.0 game. He's never for a moment suggesting using 3.0 psionics.
Tempest Stormwind
07-28-07, 02:05 PM I meant (3.0) + (XPH), as in the PHB from 2000, all the other books prior to ~2003 except the PsiHB... plus the XPH.

I'm very much aware of how busted the PsiHB was.
The_One_Who_Walks
07-28-07, 03:39 PM oh, I see... that makes infinitely more sence... well, I feel more than a little silly... :embarrass
DarkPawn
07-28-07, 05:26 PM Sorry if I'm still ignorant but what are you saying exactly? Should I allow a player to use 3.0 and 3.5 mixed together? Should I disallow one?

I know for a fact that the character is using powers and feats from both books.
Novem
07-28-07, 05:35 PM Sorry if I'm still ignorant but what are you saying exactly? Should I allow a player to use 3.0 and 3.5 mixed together? Should I disallow one?

I know for a fact that the character is using powers and feats from both books.

If I was in your position, I'd leave it be now but prevent him from using anything else from the old Psionics Handbook, and concentrate on the XPH. Next time you have a player who tries to use 3.0 Psionics, direct him to 3.5- it's safer for your game. Like Tempest said, one could use both, but it'll be a pain and the only thing it'll accomplish is to kill your game.
DarkPawn
07-28-07, 05:40 PM If I was in your position, I'd leave it be now but prevent him from using anything else from the old Psionics Handbook, and concentrate on the XPH. Next time you have a player who tries to use 3.0 Psionics, direct him to 3.5- it's safer for your game. Like Tempest said, one could use both, but it'll be a pain and the only thing it'll accomplish is to kill your game.

The character has not started in the campaign yet. I haven't begun running. I guess I'm asking if I should ban all 3.0 rules, and tell him to stick specifically to 3.5.
Tempest Stormwind
07-28-07, 05:48 PM Here's the deal.

When he uses psionics, he must stick completely to 3.5 sources.

The rest of the game still sticks to whatever sources you normally allow.
DarkPawn
07-28-07, 05:58 PM Here's the deal.

When he uses psionics, he must stick completely to 3.5 sources.

The rest of the game still sticks to whatever sources you normally allow.

..and 3.5 sources for psionics are the Expanded Psionics Handbook and the Complete Psionic correct?
Thomar_of_Uointer
07-28-07, 06:04 PM ..and 3.5 sources for psionics are the Expanded Psionics Handbook and the Complete Psionic correct?

Well, you don't need Complete Psionic... In fact, you don't even need the XPH, the psionics rules are in the SRD.
Guroth the Forsaken
07-28-07, 06:11 PM The character has not started in the campaign yet. I haven't begun running. I guess I'm asking if I should ban all 3.0 rules, and tell him to stick specifically to 3.5.

Hells, YES. That is EXACTLY what you tell him to do. :)
DarkPawn
07-28-07, 06:18 PM Hells, YES. That is EXACTLY what you tell him to do. :)

10-4, thanks. I'm assuming then that Complete Psionic and XPH will be adequate then.
Novem
07-28-07, 07:23 PM 10-4, thanks. I'm assuming then that Complete Psionic and XPH will be adequate then.

There are also Third Party products that are pretty good. Eberron has some psionics stuff too.
DarkPawn
07-28-07, 08:11 PM There are also Third Party products that are pretty good. Eberron has some psionics stuff too.

I'm running an Eberron campaign, and have approved all Eberron books for use. With my final approval of course.
Mælstrøm
08-02-07, 12:19 PM Yep, the others already said it, but I will emphasize that you only need the XPH (Expanded Psionics Handbook), not the Complete Psionics. The Complete is, like the rest of the Complete-series, only adding to the XPH.

Plus, you can use the SRD (system reference document) at wizards, it will give you the gist of psionics without flavor or examples. ;)

Hope I could help.

PS: I have played in a game where the GM wasn't too familiar with my character concept, and I ended suffering, because he didn't take the time to go through the rules - if you do not wish to take the time and get to know psionics, don't allow it and/or explain to your player that he might come up short. The GM should always be better informed or as well informed on the stuff. Or ask him if he has special ideas or combos he wants to try and see whether they fit, so that you can build it into the campaign and he won't be disappointed later ;)
Lazigothi
08-02-07, 12:57 PM Yep, the others already said it, but I will emphasize that you only need the XPH (Expanded Psionics Handbook), not the Complete Psionics. The Complete is, like the rest of the Complete-series, only adding to the XPH.

Plus, you can use the SRD (system reference document) at wizards, it will give you the gist of psionics without flavor or examples. ;)

Hope I could help.

PS: I have played in a game where the GM wasn't too familiar with my character concept, and I ended suffering, because he didn't take the time to go through the rules - if you do not wish to take the time and get to know psionics, don't allow it and/or explain to your player that he might come up short. The GM should always be better informed or as well informed on the stuff. Or ask him if he has special ideas or combos he wants to try and see whether they fit, so that you can build it into the campaign and he won't be disappointed later ;)

I strongly support this remark. That thread on the nerfed soullknife was very painful to read. I wouldn't wish misery like that on my worst enemy.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tarrandivinity 07-27-07, 06:22 PM	I'm not all that vocal on the boards, i rarely do more than glance at them. The few times i have asked, i didn't get much help... but that won't detract me! here is my story... i cut my teeth in ADND on the old DARK SUN world setting. i've always loved the concept of psionics. Finally i'm starting my own 3.5 campaign with psionics included. but i am just overwhelmed by the material which seems more like a terribly skewed version of magic to me than anything like the old psionics. i've read through the 3.0 psionics book at least three times, and the 3.5 expanded version a couple also, and they read like stereo instruction in japanese. so i'm seeking any advice on how to ease some higherlevel psionics into my game, starters are simple enough. but what about other psionic monsters and incorporating psionic treasures into the mix. i'll admit in the ADND version i rarely ever used psionic items save for a few epic scale items and power stones [the batteries you make with metapsionics school].
tarrandivinity 07-27-07, 06:33 PM	also i forgot... i know the books give some common like examples of a pc following a certain progression of abilities. but if you could give some input on what some common 3.5 thugs and npcs, and the like might use. and lastly... when i said before about psionics for common monsters, i didn't mean like orcs and goblins-type common i meant like common mid level dungeon monsters, like vampires or minotaur, or the lieutenant in charge of the palace guard. that sort of thing.
Xaxor 07-27-07, 07:20 PM	For starters, you only want the Expanded Psionics Handbook. The system is light-years ahead of 3.0 Psionics. As for items, it's pretty much the same as Arcane/Divine, just with different names. A Power Stone is really just a Scroll. Tattoo's are just a take on potions. A Psion can use a Headband of Intellect just fine... it increases DCs just like spells, but it also grants bonus power points. There's a table right in the beginning of the book that lays it all out. Item creation is exactly the same as in the DMG, but there are some new abilities.
CrimsonDeath 07-27-07, 09:19 PM	Note that, if the players want to craft some of the traditional Wondrous Items (such as the Headband of Intellect) as Miscellaneous Psionic Items (worst item creation feat name ever), or some of the traditional magic weapons (such as flaming swords) as psionic weapons, the DM needs to do a bit of work determining the appropriate power prerequisites. (In the above, Animal Affinity is a good prerequisite for the Headband, and any of the level 3 or higher Energy powers would probably work for the sword.) If it's a preexisting game with characters who have been doing just fine without psionics for a while, and you want to start dropping psionic items, I'd suggest allowing a character to activate psionic items like dorjes and power stones with the Use Magic Device skill. Otherwise, that psionic treasure is just going to get sold off. If you intend to introduce a psionic character into the game, you'll probably want to glance at the FAQ. Also remember the single most important rule of psionics: You cannot spend more powerpoints on a single power than your manifester level. A level 5 psion can only spend 5PP on a single power (so no 10d10 Mind Thrusts at first level).
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-28-07, 02:00 AM	i've read through the 3.0 psionics book at least three times, and the 3.5 expanded version a couple also, and they read like stereo instruction in japanese. That's just the 3.0 Psionics Handbook. You want the 3.5 XPH, it's a totally different system (though the flavor sucks, see the Truenaming Psionics thread). You can also find a nice reference document here: http://d20srd.org/ so i'm seeking any advice on how to ease some higherlevel psionics into my game, starters are simple enough. but what about other psionic monsters and incorporating psionic treasures into the mix. Well, it depends. You have to decide if psionics is an underlying force in the world (like Dark Sun), or a minor oddity mostly practiced in other regions and imported to the main area of the campaign setting under special circumstances (like Eberron). The second is preferable if psionics is not integral to the setting, you just treat psionics like a foreign magic, preferably practiced by foreign races in foreign ways. Again, check out the Truenaming Psionics thread for ideas on how to incorporate it more fully.
DarkPawn 07-28-07, 02:02 AM	That's just the 3.0 Psionics Handbook. You want the 3.5 XPH, it's a totally different system. You can also find a nice reference document here: http://d20srd.org/ I'm curious, do you allow or use 3.0 book or powers? From what I've seen in the XPH, it is well balanced. Should I be worried about anything in 3.0? A player in my campaign is using 3.0 and XPH, so just looking for a heads up.
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-28-07, 02:11 AM	I'm curious, do you allow or use 3.0 book or powers? From what I've seen in the XPH, it is well balanced. Should I be worried about anything in 3.0? A player in my campaign is using 3.0 and XPH, so just looking for a heads up. The 3.0 psionics book is a natural 1 incarnate. Also, the two systems are generally incompatible (3.5 is based on things like psionic focus expenditure, power augmentation, and single-ability dependencies).
Tempest Stormwind 07-28-07, 02:19 AM	Note that 3.0 + XPH is still perfectly compatible. If anything, the XPH will be a bit WEAK, because it was built with 3.5's changes to buff duration and spell save DCs (both of which were dramatically lowered in 3.5), not 3.0's balance standard.
MnemonicSV 07-28-07, 03:37 AM	...and power stones [the batteries you make with metapsionics school]. Ahhhhhh... good 'ole 2e receptacle. I miss that power (even though it was totally broken and abused), along with Empower to match. Receptacles are now essentially cognizance crystals in 3.5e, and have strict limitations in regards to their abilities (ie: not broken anymore). They always have a fixed power point capacity (always an odd number from 1 to 17). You can charge them up using your own power points, but you can't take the power points back later to replenish your reserve. When you manifest a power you either choose to use a cognizance crystal (if you have one with enough power points stored on it), or use your own pp reserve (you can't use more than one source at a time). I've never liked the fact that you need a separate feat to create one (Craft Cognizance Crystal), but they still come in handy. ----- Edit: I just noticed there is no mention of what kind of time or action is required to actually recharge a cognizance crystal. Never noticed that before.
The_One_Who_Walks 07-28-07, 01:23 PM	Note that 3.0 + XPH is still perfectly compatible. If anything, the XPH will be a bit WEAK, because it was built with 3.5's changes to buff duration and spell save DCs (both of which were dramatically lowered in 3.5), not 3.0's balance standard. As a general rule, Tempest, I have nothing but the highest respect and regard for your opinions, but in this, I must express confusion and disagreement. It's my understanding, having used both systems, that 3.0 psionics and 3.5 XPH were more or less an original and a conversion, much like the 3.0 and 3.5 PHBs. It seems to me that comparing 3.0 psioncs to 3.5 is much like comparing a 3.0 ranger to a 3.5 version, though admittedly perhaps in reverse, as far as power goes... By that I mean the theory is (for the most part...) the same, but the mechanics behind it are different enough that the one can't compare to the other. XPH is a much more elegant system, lacking the multi-ability dependency that 3.0 used, as well as eliminating "psionic combat" which, while I love the idea of, in my own experience was a somewhat obtuse mechanic that just slowed down the game and left anyone not playing a psionic character more or less totally out of the loop. Also, some of the feats in 3.0 were a bit... crazy. Inertial Armor was mage armor as a feat. Anyway, I digress. The 3.0 version of psionics, while not the game-breaking monstrosity a lot of DMs seemed to think it was, needed an overhaul desperately. And in the XPH, it found one. It's still not perfect, but it's as balanced as core, if not more so. Anyway, I've put in my :twocents:, and I feel like I'm rambeling now, so I'm going to stop, befor I irritate poeple, if I've not already...
Antendren 07-28-07, 01:41 PM	You're not understanding what he's saying. He's talking about using the XPH in an otherwise 3.0 game. He's never for a moment suggesting using 3.0 psionics.
Tempest Stormwind 07-28-07, 02:05 PM	I meant (3.0) + (XPH), as in the PHB from 2000, all the other books prior to ~2003 except the PsiHB... plus the XPH. I'm very much aware of how busted the PsiHB was.
The_One_Who_Walks 07-28-07, 03:39 PM	oh, I see... that makes infinitely more sence... well, I feel more than a little silly... :embarrass
DarkPawn 07-28-07, 05:26 PM	Sorry if I'm still ignorant but what are you saying exactly? Should I allow a player to use 3.0 and 3.5 mixed together? Should I disallow one? I know for a fact that the character is using powers and feats from both books.
Novem 07-28-07, 05:35 PM	Sorry if I'm still ignorant but what are you saying exactly? Should I allow a player to use 3.0 and 3.5 mixed together? Should I disallow one? I know for a fact that the character is using powers and feats from both books. If I was in your position, I'd leave it be now but prevent him from using anything else from the old Psionics Handbook, and concentrate on the XPH. Next time you have a player who tries to use 3.0 Psionics, direct him to 3.5- it's safer for your game. Like Tempest said, one could use both, but it'll be a pain and the only thing it'll accomplish is to kill your game.
DarkPawn 07-28-07, 05:40 PM	If I was in your position, I'd leave it be now but prevent him from using anything else from the old Psionics Handbook, and concentrate on the XPH. Next time you have a player who tries to use 3.0 Psionics, direct him to 3.5- it's safer for your game. Like Tempest said, one could use both, but it'll be a pain and the only thing it'll accomplish is to kill your game. The character has not started in the campaign yet. I haven't begun running. I guess I'm asking if I should ban all 3.0 rules, and tell him to stick specifically to 3.5.
Tempest Stormwind 07-28-07, 05:48 PM	Here's the deal. When he uses psionics, he must stick completely to 3.5 sources. The rest of the game still sticks to whatever sources you normally allow.
DarkPawn 07-28-07, 05:58 PM	Here's the deal. When he uses psionics, he must stick completely to 3.5 sources. The rest of the game still sticks to whatever sources you normally allow. ..and 3.5 sources for psionics are the Expanded Psionics Handbook and the Complete Psionic correct?
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-28-07, 06:04 PM	..and 3.5 sources for psionics are the Expanded Psionics Handbook and the Complete Psionic correct? Well, you don't need Complete Psionic... In fact, you don't even need the XPH, the psionics rules are in the SRD.
Guroth the Forsaken 07-28-07, 06:11 PM	The character has not started in the campaign yet. I haven't begun running. I guess I'm asking if I should ban all 3.0 rules, and tell him to stick specifically to 3.5. Hells, YES. That is EXACTLY what you tell him to do. :)
DarkPawn 07-28-07, 06:18 PM	Hells, YES. That is EXACTLY what you tell him to do. :) 10-4, thanks. I'm assuming then that Complete Psionic and XPH will be adequate then.
Novem 07-28-07, 07:23 PM	10-4, thanks. I'm assuming then that Complete Psionic and XPH will be adequate then. There are also Third Party products that are pretty good. Eberron has some psionics stuff too.
DarkPawn 07-28-07, 08:11 PM	There are also Third Party products that are pretty good. Eberron has some psionics stuff too. I'm running an Eberron campaign, and have approved all Eberron books for use. With my final approval of course.
Mælstrøm 08-02-07, 12:19 PM	Yep, the others already said it, but I will emphasize that you only need the XPH (Expanded Psionics Handbook), not the Complete Psionics. The Complete is, like the rest of the Complete-series, only adding to the XPH. Plus, you can use the SRD (system reference document) at wizards, it will give you the gist of psionics without flavor or examples. ;) Hope I could help. PS: I have played in a game where the GM wasn't too familiar with my character concept, and I ended suffering, because he didn't take the time to go through the rules - if you do not wish to take the time and get to know psionics, don't allow it and/or explain to your player that he might come up short. The GM should always be better informed or as well informed on the stuff. Or ask him if he has special ideas or combos he wants to try and see whether they fit, so that you can build it into the campaign and he won't be disappointed later ;)
Lazigothi 08-02-07, 12:57 PM	Yep, the others already said it, but I will emphasize that you only need the XPH (Expanded Psionics Handbook), not the Complete Psionics. The Complete is, like the rest of the Complete-series, only adding to the XPH. Plus, you can use the SRD (system reference document) at wizards, it will give you the gist of psionics without flavor or examples. ;) Hope I could help. PS: I have played in a game where the GM wasn't too familiar with my character concept, and I ended suffering, because he didn't take the time to go through the rules - if you do not wish to take the time and get to know psionics, don't allow it and/or explain to your player that he might come up short. The GM should always be better informed or as well informed on the stuff. Or ask him if he has special ideas or combos he wants to try and see whether they fit, so that you can build it into the campaign and he won't be disappointed later ;) I strongly support this remark. That thread on the nerfed soullknife was very painful to read. I wouldn't wish misery like that on my worst enemy.