Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cymbolik 05-15-07, 08:40 AM	Have I been reading/understanding independant research incorrectly all along? Does independant research count toward your number of powers known, or is this a way for psionic characters to effectively gain powers in excess of their usual alotment?
Psi-Druid 05-15-07, 08:44 AM	It counts toward your number of powers known.
cymbolik 05-15-07, 08:59 AM	Phew! I thought so. But I'm re-reading the text for independant research and I'm not going to lie, it's confusing me. I mean, surely something like it counting towards your total powers known limit should be expressly stated, or is it just assumed that we would interpret the rule as such? Afterall, the only other classes that have free access to independant research are prepared arcane classes, and clearly independant research doesn't count against their limit due to them not having one. Spontaneous casters don't have the same freedom and have to be granted special leave by the PTB to possibly make use of independant research. The text for independant research in the XPH doesn't actually say whether or not an independantly researched power counts towards that limit. What assumption/deduction do we have to make in regard to this? Is there another body of text that actually stipulates that this independant research counts toward your total number of powers known, or did the designers mean for independant research to be an alternative to psychic chirurgery with a manifesting time of 1 week per level of the power you wish to implant, a massive xp cost and a skill check to confirm success?
Bernat 05-15-07, 09:21 AM	I'ld say it doesn't count towards the number of powers known. However, it leaves the decision, wether to allow the system or not, to the DM. ADDING POWERS Psionic characters can learn new powers when they attain a new level. A psion can learn any power from the psion/wilder list and powers from his chosen discipline’s list. A wilder can learn any power from the psion/wilder list. A psychic warrior can learn any power from the psychic warrior list. Powers Gained at a New Level: Psions and other psionic characters perform a certain amount of personal meditation between adventures in an attempt to unlock latent mental abilities. Each time a psionic character attains a new level, he or she learns additional powers according to his class description. Psions, psychic warriors, and wilders learn new powers of their choice in this fashion. These powers represent abilities unlocked from latency. The powers must be of levels the characters can manifest. Independent Research: A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation. Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. If the check fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying.
hovnarr 05-15-07, 09:35 AM	Interesting. I had always assumed that it counted against powers known, but if you read it, there's nothing to suggest that you need an open power slot to learn the researched power. Indeed, it appears that you can research at any point, for example mid level with no "open" power slots.
Deekin 05-15-07, 09:36 AM	I think the relevant buzzword hear is learns Adding Powers Psionic characters can learn new powers when they attain a new level. A psion can learn any power from the psion/wilder list and powers from his chosen discipline’s list. A wilder can learn any power from the psion/wilder list. A psychic warrior can learn any power from the psychic warrior list. Powers Gained at a New Level Psions and other psionic characters perform a certain amount of personal meditation between adventures in an attempt to unlock latent mental abilities. Each time a psionic character attains a new level, he or she learns additional powers according to his class description. Psions, psychic warriors, and wilders learn new powers of their choice in this fashion. These powers represent abilities unlocked from latency. The powers must be of levels the characters can manifest. Independent Research A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation. Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. If the check fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying.
cymbolik 05-15-07, 09:52 AM	Adding Spells to a Sorcerer’s or Bard’s Repertoire: A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: Bard Spells Known or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list he now knows. With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of. See, now that I'm lookin g at the differences, spontaneous casters actually have a disclaimer (emphasis mine) that disqualifies them from exceeding their spells known limit. I think this is the case in the class description also, whereas the psion, for instance, has no such specific limitations placed on the class. Not even the wilder has anything indicating that they are restricted in this way. Have we been assuming the wrong thing all along; That just because the psychic classes have a set number of powers known they were automatically the same as spontaneous casters and unable to increase this number except through a feat?
munin 05-15-07, 10:02 AM	Making it not count against your powers known also solves the "when is it known" issue. If it counts against your powers known, do you learn fewer powers when you level up, then research the power over a few weeks as part of the level up? Can you wait to research the power until you're halfway through your level? Can you research a power before your level-up but somehow you don't actually "know it" until you have a power known slot open for it? If independently researched powers don't count against your powers known, then these questions go away, a sign of a good rule interpretation. Given research's XP cost, I don't think it's unbalancing to have researched powers not count against your powers known (though personally I'm not as worried about giving up XP as some people -- XP loss corrects itself eventually, and can even sometimes lead to you having more XP than your companions). Technically, Expanded Knowledge doesn't explicitly say that it allows you to exceed your maximum powers known either. It say you add a power, but that could be just like adding a power at level-up, not allowing you to exceed your maximum, except that you can choose powers from lists other than your class list. I'm just saying that independent research and Expanded Knowledge should be equally likely to allow you to exceed your maximum powers known. Yay, rules lawyering!
hovnarr 05-15-07, 10:02 AM	You may be right cymbolik. @Deekin: I think it's actually can learn vs. learn: A psion can learn any power from the psion/wilder list and powers from his chosen discipline’s list. Conclusion: He can learn such powers. For instance, we he has the opportunity to learn a new power, he can learn one of those. Each time a psionic character attains a new level, he or she learns additional powers according to his class description. It's not that he can learn a specific power here - it's the fact that he learns additional powers. Which powers? Those he can learn. If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. So in this case, it's not that the psion can learn a power that was previously unavailable to him - he simply learns it, straight off. Having said that, I still think the RAI is that you research as part of selecting new powers for level advancement, and it counts towards powers known. But read strictly, I'd say it's in addition to other powers. Not that it really matters except at low levels where research XP is scarce anyway. A psion has more than enough powers - it's the quality and not the quantity that matters.
Racinante 05-15-07, 10:05 AM	Benefit: Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest. You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline's list or even from another class's list. Independent research does not stipulate that you gain an additional power, therefore, you do not and must use one of your powers known slots. You can use IR at any time to learn a new power, but you would need to use psychic reformation to free that slot up.
hovnarr 05-15-07, 10:18 AM	Independent research does not stipulate that you gain an additional power, therefore, you do not and must use one of your powers known slots. You can use IR at any time to learn a new power, but you would need to use psychic reformation to free that slot up. The precise word "additional" isn't necessary. If the EK feat simply read "Add to your powers known one power...", it would have exactly the same game effect. The RAW states that upon completed research, the researcher learns the power. Just like that.
munin 05-15-07, 10:28 AM	If independently researched powers are gained through level-up, what happens if you psychic reform away a power you had independently researched? Is it gone forever and you have to research it again if you want it back? Because of that question, I had always house-ruled that independent research doesn't cause you to learn a new power, it adds it to your class list. Then you could learn it at your next level-up (or as part of your current level-up) and it would still be available to you to relearn/re-reform if you reformed it away later. If independently researched powers are not gained as part of level-up, then you can't reform them away (and you wouldn't need to), making life easier, another sign of a good rule interpretation.
Bernat 05-15-07, 10:44 AM	Looking at the little reference to Independent Research you can find, I've always thought that it was just an optional rule for increasing power availability to psionic classes at the cost of XP. Independent Research: A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation. This, along with Psychic Chirurgery requiring an NPC knowing both Psychic Ch. and the power you want to learn, lead to the DM having the final word about the matter. So if the DM feels a psion should be able to have a wider power availability, he can allow this rule. If he thinks the rule is overpowered, he can just ban it. This, along with the quote I provided in my previous post, make me think that it gives you additional powers known. But every DM has the final word on his game ;).
DracoPhoenix 05-15-07, 10:49 AM	My $0.02 IR & EK both allow you to gain a known power - not switch out a power. Both have a cost separate to that of levelling. It would be unfair to say you can expend substantial resources, to switch out one power you already know for another. Or learn a power (up to your current limits) ahead of levelling up. I am aware of psychic reformation, but either that power or IR is made redundant by the other. And IIRC, IR applies to all disciplines, Psychic reformation is a telepath power? Avoiding the flame war that is Wizard v. Psion, but given that the wizard can simply go into a shop to learn a spell (yes, there's a gold cost), and the aforementioned extra costs involved for IR, I don't think learning a few extra powers would be unreasonable - maybe say their Int bonus per power level in extra powers?
cymbolik 05-15-07, 11:20 AM	Much like you, munin, I don't really care for xp. It's just another resource to expend at the end of the day and far, far easier to come by than any other resource in the D&D multiverse, so I do hope that this interpretation of the rules is along the right path. It does force us to ask more questions than we were before about independent research, but the way you're looking at it is basically how it's been confusing me since I started looking at the rules carefully earlier this week. It certainly makes more sense with psychic reformation and how it affects powers, since I always thought that researching powers that take up slots would be the absolute last powers you'd choose to reform away since they already cost you so much. As far as Racinate's argument is concerned, I would happily have accepted it if the psionic classes actually had a similar disclaimer in their class descritpions, but since they don't we have to wonder what we're basing our assumptions regarding the actual limitations of the powers known list on. Have any of us actually read an exclusive body of text that uncategorically states that psionic character are absolutely restricted to the number of powers they are able to know at any given level, the same way sorcerers and bards are?
munin 05-15-07, 12:28 PM	When the rules are not clear cut on an issue, I consider two things: what makes sense from a role-playing perspective, and do any interpretations of the rule lead to fun-killing game imbalance (in which case it's wrong even if it's RAW). I don't think this is a role-playing discussion, so let's look at balance. Methods of Adding Powers Known Gain Class Level Cost: opportunity cost for taking another class and learning its powers? Limitations: class level maximum powers known, class power list Expanded Knowledge Benefit: can learn powers from other class power lists, usually interpreted as allowing you to exceed your class maximum powers known limit Cost: feat slot Limitations: can only learn powers of a power level one less than you can manifest. Independent Research Benefit: can learn powers from other class power lists, can learn player/DM-developed powers Cost: 200 XP x power level, 1 week x power level Limitations: none Psychic Chirurgery Benefit: can learn powers from other class power lists Cost: 1,000 XP x power level (paid by manifester, not target, though can be split), 10 minutes Limitations: none Anyone think of anything else to add? The XP cost difference between independent research and psychic chirurgery does concern me, though the time cost partially ameliorates this (but seriously, not really -- "10 minutes go by" takes as long to say as "three weeks go by"). Also, psychic chirurgery explicitly states that powers gained in this way do not count towards class maximum, while Expanded Knowledge and independent research do not (the word "additional" is a thin thread to hang an interpretation on). Personally I feel that 200 XP x power level is a little low for an extra power known (200 XP for astral construct? 800 XP for hustle, psionic dominate, or metamorphosis? especially if you're a mid- or high-level character? no brainer, sign me up!), but I also think psychic chirurgery's cost can be too high, especially when it's paid by the manifester not the target (should it really potentially cost more than a reality revision? 500 XP x power level seems better). So I think I'll stick with my house-rule that independent research adds a power to your class list. But maybe I'll add a house-rule that if you increase the research cost to 500 XP x power level, then in addition to adding the power to your class list, you also immediately learn it as an additional power which doesn't count against your class maximum (with the time cost balanced against psychic chirurgery's "find someone to manifest it" cost). I think that's balanced and easily role-played. Hmm, I used the word "additional" there naturally and it feels moderately necessary to express my intent. Maybe the thread's not so thin. Again, that's just my house-rule, not my interpretation of the rules.
Racinante 05-15-07, 06:00 PM	The precise word "additional" isn't necessary. If the EK feat simply read "Add to your powers known one power...", it would have exactly the same game effect. The RAW states that upon completed research, the researcher learns the power. Just like that. The RAW also states Choose the powers known from the psion power list, or from the list of powers of your chosen discipline. You cannot choose powers from restricted discipline lists other than your own discipline list. You can choose powers from disciplines other than your own if they are not on a restricted discipline list. (Exception: The feats Expanded Knowledge and Epic Expanded Knowledge do allow a psion to learn powers from the lists of other disciplines or even other classes.) A psion can manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level. Independent Research is not listed as one of the exceptions.
ShaRd2000 05-15-07, 06:30 PM	Independent Research is not listed as one of the exceptions. It doesn't list it as an exception to learning powers from another discipline or class list, not learning a new power, period. Honestly, it just seems like it was another wording problem by the authors, and in the end, as they are all saying, not choosing this way to get powers would seem absurd. Look at the erudite, it seems the whole point of the class was to get more powers than a psion could, but if the psion could use independent research to surpass that, then what was the point of an erudite anyways? Not to say that independent research shouldn't be an option anyways, just maybe up the XP cost, or put in another cost as a house-rule, because the psion is probably getting more or the same amount of powers than an erudite anyways in epic levels, so it's probably not the best measurement for the rule.
cymbolik 05-16-07, 07:25 AM	Expanded Knowledge Benefit: can learn powers from other class power lists, usually interpreted as allowing you to exceed your class maximum powers known limit Cost: feat slot Limitations: can only learn powers of a power level one less than you can manifest. Independent Research Benefit: can learn powers from other class power lists, can learn player/DM-developed powers Cost: 200 XP x power level, 1 week x power level Limitations: none Psychic Chirurgery Benefit: can learn powers from other class power lists Cost: 1,000 XP x power level (paid by manifester, not target, though can be split), 10 minutes Limitations: none To add, EK is an instantaneous effect granted by level gain and can easily be reformed out and in to change your known powers list, especially if you're constantly using reformation to ensure that EK is the absolute last feat you chose, making this a very cheap option xp-wise, especially since psychic reformation can change your entire character structure in the 10 minutes it takes to manifest the power. Psychic chirurgery, while having a similar manifesting time as psychic reformation should be commensurately more expensive since this permanently places a power into your repertoire and cannot ever be changed. It indicates a certain commitment of resources to a specific power that gets added. In a similar way independant research can be viewed the same way as crafting psionic items, except that: a) I agree the xp cost is too low for the instances where you are using it to increase your number of known powers in excess of the class total represented but then we need to take into consideration that; b) Independent Research: A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation. Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. If the check fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying. Meaning that the researcher cannot be interrupted in the entire period that the research is happening. It's a lot more difficult for a DM to disrupt a 10 minute manifestation than it is 9 weeks. There's a series of crafting feats that halve/reduce one or more components in the item crafting process, proportionately increasing another one of the components. Given this discussion I find it helps me to think in terms of independant research as much the same, except that there isn't a gold component to the crafting of powers.
Racinante 05-16-07, 09:56 AM	Look at the erudite, it seems the whole point of the class was to get more powers than a psion could, but if the psion could use independent research to surpass that, then what was the point of an erudite anyways? Which is another good reason to not allow Independent Research to expand your powers known above what you would get for advancing a level. Requiring you to use an available slot for the researched power does not invalidate the Erudite.
Racinante 05-16-07, 10:34 AM	Methods of Adding Powers Known Gain Class Level Cost: opportunity cost for taking another class and learning its powers? Limitations: class level maximum powers known, class power list Expanded Knowledge Benefit: can learn powers from other class power lists, usually interpreted as allowing you to exceed your class maximum powers known limit Cost: feat slot Limitations: can only learn powers of a power level one less than you can manifest. Independent Research Benefit: can learn powers from other class power lists, can learn player/DM-developed powers Cost: 200 XP x power level, 1 week x power level Limitations: none Psychic Chirurgery Benefit: can learn powers from other class power lists Cost: 1,000 XP x power level (paid by manifester, not target, though can be split), 10 minutes Limitations: none Anyone think of anything else to add? Sure... Magic/Psionic Item Benefit: Additional power (power completion), non-slotted, 5 or more uses per day, and Skill bonus (competence) for Use Psionic Device to ensure no failure in using device (20 ranks). Cost*: Power level x manifester level x 2,000/2** gp x 2 + 80 x Power level x manifester level in XP + Skill bonus squared x 100 gp For 9th level power: 306,000 gp (9x17x2000/2x2) +12,240 XP + 40,000 gp (20*20*100 gp market value) + 1,600 XP Total experience cost: 12,240+1,600=13,840 for adding 9th powers that last 1 hr/lvl. GP Cost to make: 173,000 gp (or an additional 34,600 xp at 5/1 rate) Duration: 306 days or 43+ weeks. * Multiply by 4 if power is in rounds/level, by 2 if minutes/level, 1.5 if 10 minutes/level, 0.5 if day or day/level ** Use activated items cost twice what a spell completion item does. Compare scroll with potion. Reducing the cost by only allowing one use per day for an hour/level power yields a cost for a new 9th level power of 2,768 xp + 34,600 gp (or an additional 6,920 xp at 5/1 rate) and a crafting time of over 9 weeks.
munin 05-16-07, 12:04 PM	Such a psionic item doesn't use your power points, so it's a little difficult to compare it to the other methods (and I think you're mixing continuous-effect item pricing with at-will item pricing). A psionic equivalent of the runestaff from Magic Item Compendium might be better. A runestaff allows you to expend a spell slot 3/day/spell to cast a spell from the runestaff (and the spell in the runestaff must be on your class list). It costs (400 gp + 16 XP) x spell level squared (eq. 96 XP x power level squared). (I hope I'm remembering this correctly, don't have it in front of me). Increasing the cost by 5/3 (assuming you interpret the magic item creation rules to mean that 5/day = unlimited use) is 160 XP x power level squared. Probably should increase that somewhat because power points are more flexible than spell slots... 200 XP x power level squared? That would be 200 XP for a 1st-level power, and 16,200 XP for a 9th-level power, requires a feat slot (for Craft Universal Item? but just once for all powers gained in this way, and would be useful in other ways), 1 to 33 days, and must be wielded. For high-level powers, that's significantly worse than independent research, so another prior for research not exceeding class max.
Lazigothi 05-16-07, 12:07 PM	It read as an optional rule to me, and I opt to use it. For me, the Erudite won't be an issue since I doubt I'll have them pop up in my campaign setting. I like the idea of either making it a straight 200xp/ week with # weeks/ level of power, or perhaps also increasing the xp value depending on the power. Since some spells of the same level cost a little more to buy as a scroll, I can see how some powers might be a bit more than the 200xp/ week. Time will be the main balancing factor in my campaign. There's always plenty of things to do, and there are a number of pressing storylines that demand attention. Taking the time to research will mean certain events turn out negatively. As they say, no rest for the wicked.:evillaugh
cymbolik 05-17-07, 06:04 AM	There is an answer in the XPH, not the SRD. Under the heading Independant research the XPH stipulates that a psionic character can never exceed the class known powers amount. Obviously this statement is false, but the question is to what degree is it false? Is only a portion of it false, allowing for EK and psychic chirurgery to exceed this number, or is all of it false, allowing EK, psychic chirurgery and independant research to exceed the total known powers, bearing in mind that EK appears earlier in the manual than this heading, while psychich chirurgery appears after this heading? Do we work off the SRD or the original material? Which is the most up-to-date rule-set for psionics? What about those players that use the SRD exclusively, the ones who don't own the XPH? Are we having scenarios where D&D players are running around with psionic anomalies, just because one sentence was not reprinted in the SRD, while the rest of us are sticking to the manual because that's the original sourcebook? :nonono:
Steely_Dan 05-17-07, 06:12 AM	Are we having scenarios where D&D players are running around with psionic anomalies, just because one sentence was not reprinted in the SRD, while the rest of us are sticking to the manual because that's the original sourcebook? Absolutely, and not just with psionics, the SRD is incomplete in many areas. It's very bare bones and often doesn't elaborate enough.
Racinante 05-17-07, 10:02 AM	There is an answer in the XPH, not the SRD. Under the heading Independant research the XPH stipulates that a psionic character can never exceed the class known powers amount. This defines the general rule. Unless a particular class ability, feat, or item specifically indicates otherwise, this rule is in effect. This is true of all general rules. ...allowing for EK and psychic chirurgery to exceed this number... These two specifically state that they increase or add to the number of powers known, Independent Research does not, therefore, the first two are exceptions and the last is not. Ergo, IR does not add to to the number of powers known.
cymbolik 05-17-07, 10:48 AM	Do we work off the SRD or the original material? Which is the most up-to-date rule-set for psionics? What about those players that use the SRD exclusively, the ones who don't own the XPH? Are we having scenarios where D&D players are running around with psionic anomalies, just because one sentence was not reprinted in the SRD, while the rest of us are sticking to the manual because that's the original sourcebook? Fair enough, Racinate. but I only came across that answer because I happen to own the XPH. What about the scenario above? Which set of rules do we interpret as being the real ones? Do we follow the rules that we have to pay for, or do we follow the rules that have been made available as open source to everyone, since the SRD does not have the same sub-clause in it as the XPH does? Essentially what is being suggested is that, just because I've forked out a couple of pounds for this manual, my character is not as good as one built using the SRD because they are able to eventually learn every power listed in the document. Just doing the numbers I'd frankly rather sell my manual, get my money back, and learn as many powers as I want. These two specifically state that they increase or add to the number of powers known, Independent Research does not, therefore, the first two are exceptions and the last is not. Come off it. I can apply the same logic in the reverse. Whip out your XPH (assuming you own one), flip on over to the section containing the rule for independant research and you'll find that the sub-clause reads that there is NO way for a psionic character to increase their number of powers known in excess of what their class specifies. It doesn't explicitly state that independant research cannot increase your number of known powers in excess of what your class specifies, it states that there is no way that any psionic character can exceed the number dictated by their class. That automatically disqualifies both EK and psychic chirurgery. Incidentally, using the erudite as a line of defense when arguing against independant research increasing number of powers known because it makes the erudite pointless is a flawed argument, since the XPH and the SRD were launched and released waaaaaaaay before the erudite even made it to print, meaning that the rules for independant research were devised and printed with no other classes besides psions, psychic warriors, wilders and the prestige classes that gain powers in mind.
Racinante 05-17-07, 11:57 AM	Fair enough, Racinante. but I only came across that answer because I happen to own the XPH. What about the scenario above? Which set of rules do we interpret as being the real ones? For purposes of discussion on these boards, I would have to state that the rules are those that are written in the XPH + issued errata. Come off it. I can apply the same logic in the reverse. Whip out your XPH (assuming you own one), flip on over to the section containing the rule for independant research and you'll find that the sub-clause reads that there is NO way for a psionic character to increase their number of powers known in excess of what their class specifies. It doesn't explicitly state that independant research cannot increase your number of known powers in excess of what your class specifies, it states that there is no way that any psionic character can exceed the number dictated by their class. That automatically disqualifies both EK and psychic chirurgery. I do own one but do not have one with me at the moment. Regardless, the fact that the statement is made as a sub-clause of Independent Research reinforces the supposition that IR does not grant an additional power known. Furthermore, the argument can be made that the statement is absolutely true. A psion, in the absence of any non-intrinsic property of his class, cannot expand his powers known beyond what is stated in his class description. Research is an intrinsic characteristic of any character. Anyone can do research (what results from the research may vary by character), however, particular feats or powers are not intrinsic to every psionic character, as not every psionic character will have a particular feat or power unless they have access to it and have chosen it. A similar type of argument would exist if the sub-clause stated: there is NO way for a psionic character to increase their number of power points per day in excess of what their class specifies. This is absolutely true, as their class specifies their total power points and specifies that a high manifesting stat adds bonus power points. Nothing in the class abilities allow you to increase your power points above what is stated. Body Fuel and Psionic Talent both increase your power points, but these are not class abilities of the Psion. Based on your argument, then, every feat, power, spell, or class ability that defines an exception to a general rule is invalid. This sounds like a very weak counterpoint to my position. The erudite response was made to the erudite post. The weight of the response should not be valued more than the post it was being made to.
ShaRd2000 05-17-07, 11:59 PM	But the erudite's description mentioned that it will end up with a larger psionic repertoire than a psion, due to it's ability to add powers as the class describes. Of course, the erudite only implies that you couldn't learn more through IR, it doesn't outright confirm it. Again, meaning that the rules for independant research were devised and printed with no other classes besides psions, psychic warriors, wilders and the prestige classes that gain powers in mind. the erudite description was implieing that it was created with the idea of having more available powers than a psion, but if a psion could get more than it's class levels gave them anyways, then the erudite class is moot.
cymbolik 05-18-07, 04:53 AM	For purposes of discussion on these boards, I would have to state that the rules are those that are written in the XPH + issued errata. Then for purposes of discussions on these boards it would probably be best for us to stop referencing the SRD as much as we do and assume it to be flawed as it is in incomplete representation of the rules that we all should be using. I do own one but do not have one with me at the moment. This statement was not meant personally. I was simply driving home my point about the fact that there are some people out there who don't own the XPH. The point being that in some cases we're never going to see eye to eye on certain points with other people simply because some of us would be referencing, by no fault of their own, incomplete and inaccurate information. My DM, for instance, used the SRD as reference for months and months of gameplay while I had the manual. Now, fortunately this issue or issues like it didn't come up for us since we discuss things before implementing them, but I have to wonder how this oversight could/would affect games where communication is not encouraged. Regardless, the fact that the statement is made as a sub-clause of Independent Research reinforces the supposition that IR does not grant an additional power known. But only if you use the XPH. Which is, at this stage of the discussion, my point. Reverse the situation of my DM and myself, him using the SRD, me using the manual. He could create any number of psionic characters and give them powers well in excess of what the XPH presumes, simply because he doesn't know any better. He would be well in his rights to argue that, since the SRD is the document most recently printed it has to be the most correct version, since the SRD should be updated as new errata is issued. I don't even know if the SRD is updated when new errata is issued, but quite frankly it really, really should be. Furthermore, the argument can be made that the statement is absolutely true. A psion, in the absence of any non-intrinsic property of his class, cannot expand his powers known beyond what is stated in his class description. Not so. The psion (or any other manifesting class) does not have the same limitation placed upon it as a spontaneous spellcaster does if making reference to their class descriptions. The class descriptions of sorcerers and bards make specific reference to a seperate spells known table and furthermore specifically states that there is no way for a sorcerer or bard to increase this number. None of the psionic classes have the same proviso placed upon them. In fact, the only place any kind of reference is made to the fact that psionic classes are restricted to a certain amount of powers known is in independant research (that I've been able to find so far. I'll have a look at EK and psychic chirurgery, since EK should have a Normal: clause to compare to what is being printed elsewhere.) Like you say, it's just a supposition we as psionics supporters have made that psionic characters are limited to that number the same way that spontaneous casters are, based entirely on us seeing a column that states a number of powers known at each level, not unlike the sorceror or bard spells known list. And perhaps it's because we have an inherent understanding of balance and fairness, but we don't all have the scruples to not abuse the system when faced with a DM who doesn't know the system, as we've seen countless times on these boards. Frankly I believe this assumption is based on a faulty premise. What do we tell the rest of the D&D anti-psionics players when the only reference DM's like these have to help them deal with this leaves out tiny things that are so completely open to interpretation but could seriously affect the balance of a game? This is absolutely true, as their class specifies their total power points and specifies that a high manifesting stat adds bonus power points. Nothing in the class abilities allow you to increase your power points above what is stated. Body Fuel and Psionic Talent both increase your power points, but these are not class abilities of the Psion. Although I'm pretty certain that the heading that deals specifically with rest and regaining power points does make specific reference to this rule, something that appears to be ill-defined in comparison to powers known. All in all a completely acceptable secondary source to clearly define the process of regaining power points, as it directly references that portion of the system. Independant research really has nothing to do with how many powers you know; which is why I find the placement of this particular rule, i.e. that no psionic class can ever know more powers beyond its class maximum, in the XPH to be completely out of synch with the system. It's such a vague reference that one actually has to go looking for it to find it, whereas the heading dealing with power points actually has it's own heading and in-depth discussion. Based on your argument, then, every feat, power, spell, or class ability that defines an exception to a general rule is invalid. This sounds like a very weak counterpoint to my position. It's not supposed to invalidate your argument. I just don't accept that this single, vague reference is enough for us to base the denotation of "general rule" status on, when the precedent has been set with spontaneous casters. Let's face facts. Have we always just assumed this to be the case because of interpretation? I mean, until last night I hadn't actually seen any specific rule or statement that indicated that this assumption was correct. Man, this throws me back to arguments I had with Christians back in the day when I thought I was an atheist. "How do you know God exists?" "Because he does." "Yes, but how do you know?" "Because I know." "Show me." The erudite response was made to the erudite post. The weight of the response should not be valued more than the post it was being made to. This was really not made in reference to you so much as it was ShaRd2000. It's very obvious to see why it shouldn't be allowed, and trust me when I say that I have no intention of practicing this absurdity. I'm smart enough to intuit the RAI. But in the land of player vs. DM, XPH vs. SRD, who wins, and who is more right, especially when people are being given misinformation? the erudite description was implieing that it was created with the idea of having more available powers than a psion, but if a psion could get more than it's class levels gave them anyways, then the erudite class is moot. And I agree with you wholeheartedly that the class description of the erudite specifically states that it can learn as many powers as it wants. But inference should not be the basis of a rule, especially not when the class that implies the rule was created and published months (if not years) after the original psionic system was devised.
Bukowski 05-18-07, 09:51 AM	Originally posted by Cymbolik I don't even know if the SRD is updated when new errata is issued, but quite frankly it really, really should be. I don't think it has been updated since psionics were added to it in 2004. It will be updated about the same time we get an online pdf of errata for CPsi. Considering I politely "AskWizards" once a month whether psionics fans can ever expect an errata or continuing support for psionic rules and never get a reply, good luck with that.
Racinante 05-18-07, 12:42 PM	Then for purposes of discussions on these boards it would probably be best for us to stop referencing the SRD as much as we do and assume it to be flawed as it is in incomplete representation of the rules that we all should be using. Agreed, unfortunately I rarely have the XPH with me when I am perusing the boards. The point being that in some cases we're never going to see eye to eye on certain points with other people simply because some of us would be referencing, by no fault of their own, incomplete and inaccurate information. Agreed. I don't even know if the SRD is updated when new errata is issued, but quite frankly it really, really should be. Unfortunately it is not, however many of the web versions have applied errata. I remember a post giving vague permissions to apply errata, with vague disclaimers and vague instructions, leaving us in the dark as to how errata could be applied to the document without violating copyright law. What do we tell the rest of the D&D anti-psionics players when the only reference DM's like these have to help them deal with this leaves out tiny things that are so completely open to interpretation but could seriously affect the balance of a game? Hmmm, the easy answer is to invest in the book, unfortunately, that is a trite and useless answer and even the XPH leaves out tiny things that causes similar problems. 'tis a quandry. Independant research really has nothing to do with how many powers you know; which is why I find the placement of this particular rule, i.e. that no psionic class can ever know more powers beyond its class maximum, in the XPH to be completely out of synch with the system. Agreed. It's not supposed to invalidate your argument. I just don't accept that this single, vague reference is enough for us to base the denotation of "general rule" status on, when the precedent has been set with spontaneous casters. Hmmm... precedent --> general rule, at least in the legal system anyway... Still, I see your point. Man, this throws me back to arguments I had with Christians back in the day when I thought I was an atheist. faith... You had some fun then. But in the land of player vs. DM, XPH vs. SRD, who wins, and who is more right, especially when people are being given misinformation? Indeed.