Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Orenmir 02-19-08, 05:56 PM	I'm playing a grappling Chaos Monk 1 / Psychic Warrior 1. Being the party's primary melee bruiser, losing my dex bonus to AC while grappling, and being a Monk that doesn't wear armor; I need to increase my AC. I'm trying to decide between Inertial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm) and Force Screen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/forceScreen.htm). Level: Psion/wilder 1, psychic warrior 1 Display: Visual; see text Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 hour/level (D) Power Points: 1 Your mind generates a tangible field of force that provides a +4 armor bonus to Armor Class. Unlike mundane armor, inertial armor entails no armor check penalty or speed reduction. Because inertial armor is composed of psychokinetic force, incorporeal creatures can’t bypass it the way they do normal armor. Your inertial armor can be invisible or can appear as a colored glow, at your option. The armor bonus provided by inertial armor does not stack with the armor bonus provided by regular armor. Augment: For every 2 additional power points you spend, the armor bonus to Armor Class increases by 1.Level: Psion/wilder 1, psychic warrior 1 Display: Auditory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 min./level Power Points: 1 You create an invisible mobile disk of force that hovers in front of you. The force screen provides a +4 shield bonus to Armor Class (which applies against incorporeal touch attacks, since the force screen is a force effect). Since it hovers in front of you, the effect has no armor check penalty associated with it. Augment: For every 4 additional power points you spend, the shield bonus to Armor Class improves by 1.Since I don't wear armor, Inertial Armor seems like the knee-jerk no-brainer: It lasts longer and it augments cheaper. The only (and big) redeeming factor about Force Screen is that the bonus type is shield -- which is much more stackable than Inertial Armor's armor bonus type. In the future, my character can easily grab items that grant armor bonuses (like bracers) which will stack with Force Screen but not Inertial Armor. Items that grant a shield bonus are... well, do any even exist? Which should I get? And, thanks for the input.
Lycanthromancer 02-19-08, 06:06 PM	Inertial armor. You won't be able to get any bracers of armor for a long time, since you're so low-level, and that 1 hour/lvl will really increase your manifesting efficiency. Once you start getting the lower-level bracers, you can still use inertial armor to increase your AC higher than the bracers would normally let you do (even though they don't stack), and you'll have the bracers to fall back on in case you get dispelled. Of course, there's always defensive precognition, which increases both your AC and your saving throws, but you'll want to wait a few levels before you get that. Also, see if your DM will let you use my powers revision (at least the 0-level talents). You can use the force screen there at no cost but your psionic focus. [edit] Oh, and both offensive precognition and hammer will definitely come in handy, although psionic lion's charge will probably be your bread-and-butter power, shoring up several of the monk's glaring weaknesses. :D
aotrscommander 02-19-08, 06:12 PM	I second Inertial Armour. The duration is worth the slight lack of stackability. Of course, you might want to pick up both eventually, depending where you're going. Force Screen - like it's magical counterpart Shield - is useful in some instances (Tanavark, my psychic warrior was heavy armour and THF, so Force Screen was his buff-of-choice); but the shorter duration makes it a better supplement than primary method of defence.
Lycanthromancer 02-19-08, 06:24 PM	Oh, and when you can afford it, get a dorje of force screen. Use it whenever you feel the need and have an action to spare.
InkBlot 02-19-08, 06:31 PM	hammer Orenmir, make sure you look up the errata for hammer! It changes the power to require only a swift-action to manifest, and to have a range of touch. Due to the way touch attacks synergize with unarmed strikes, or a monk, this essentially just adds +1d8 to all her unarmed strikes (including successful grapple checks). For a grappler, my first power choices would have been grip of iron, expansion, hammer, and strength of my enemy. Of course, inertial armor comes first for you because of your AC weakness. Have you noticed that at 20th level a fully augmented inertial armor is as good as +5 fullplate?
DracoPhoenix 02-19-08, 06:40 PM	Would Ectoplasmic armour from Comp Psi work with your abilities? If not go for IA. In either case, a dorje of Force screen will simply be icing.
Orenmir 02-19-08, 06:49 PM	Due to the way touch attacks synergize with unarmed strikes, or a monk, this essentially just adds +1d8 to all her unarmed strikes (including successful grapple checks). Although I would love for that to be true, I interpret the rules slightly different than you. Hammer requires a touch attack. IMO, a touch attack can not be delivered with a grapple check. RAW has mechanics in place for a touch attack during a grapple and a grapple check -- and they are separate. This also means you can't stack the damage from Hammer onto your normal unarmed damage. Logically, I think of it this way... During a grapple, my opponent could be grabbing my wrists to prevent such touch attacks. Damaging him with grapple checks could be knees and head-butts. Just because I can deal damage with a grapple checks doesn't mean I am dealing successful touch attacks. But, thank you anyway. The method you speak of also makes a great delivery system for Hostile Empathetic Transfer! For that and delivering other attacks during a grapple (such as Stunning Fist, Freezing the Lifeblood, Weakening Touch, and Pharaoh's Fist), I plan on picking up the feat Fear No Binds. One of its features removes the -4 to attack during a grapple.
Orenmir 02-19-08, 07:07 PM	Would Ectoplasmic armour from Comp Psi work with your abilities? Upon a quick flip through CPsi, I couldn't find Ectoplasmic Armor. What page? Or, what is it?
Fatalis_902 02-19-08, 07:56 PM	It sounds... familiar. I think it's a relic from the 3.0 Psionics Handbook, where IA was a feat. Of course, as I've only looked through that book a few times at a friend's house, I can't be sure.
Lycanthromancer 02-19-08, 08:03 PM	Ectoplasmic armor is a psychoactive skin in the back of CPsi. It's quite inexpensive (costs twice as much as full plate), and doesn't count as actual ARMOR, but it has a the same basic stats as nonmagical full plate, weighs 1 lb, doesn't affect your base speed, and can be donned/removed as a standard action. Oh, and it looks like inch-thick plastic-wrap.
DracoPhoenix 02-19-08, 08:09 PM	Upon a quick flip through CPsi, I couldn't find Ectoplasmic Armor. What page? Or, what is it? It's a psycho active skin, can't remember the page, but effectively a wonderous item with most of the properties of full plate +2. (Except movement penalty and not actually being armour)
CrimsonDeath 02-19-08, 08:32 PM	It was updated in the Magic Item Compendium, though. That version costs twice as much and counts as light armor.
Salla 02-19-08, 08:33 PM	Ectoplasmic armor is a psychoactive skin in the back of CPsi. It's quite inexpensive (costs twice as much as full plate), and doesn't count as actual ARMOR, but it has a the same basic stats as nonmagical full plate, weighs 1 lb, doesn't affect your base speed, and can be donned/removed as a standard action. Oh, and it looks like inch-thick plastic-wrap. "Psion, sealed for freshness!"
DracoPhoenix 02-19-08, 08:35 PM	It was updated in the Magic Item Compendium, though. That version costs twice as much and counts as light armor. Aww, and here's me without the MiC.... shame....
DracoPhoenix 02-19-08, 08:36 PM	"Psion, sealed for freshness!" Fighter, foil wrapped for extra freshness :P
Lycanthromancer 02-19-08, 08:45 PM	It was updated in the Magic Item Compendium, though. That version costs twice as much and counts as light armor.I refuse to buy errata. ...Which is why I don't actually OWN CPsi. I use a friend's whenever I want to burn my own eyes out read it.
Moosh Nailo 02-19-08, 08:54 PM	Although I would love for that to be true, I interpret the rules slightly different than you. Hammer requires a touch attack. IMO, a touch attack can not be delivered with a grapple check. RAW has mechanics in place for a touch attack during a grapple and a grapple check -- and they are separate. This also means you can't stack the damage from Hammer onto your normal unarmed damage. Logically, I think of it this way... During a grapple, my opponent could be grabbing my wrists to prevent such touch attacks. Damaging him with grapple checks could be knees and head-butts. Just because I can deal damage with a grapple checks doesn't mean I am dealing successful touch attacks. I know that was just an example, and I'm not arguing to shoot you down or anything. But I'd swear I read somewhere that the two can be combined. Not entirely sure this is the right passage; Page 59 of the XPH: Touch:You must touch a creature or object to affect it... then it goes on to talk about crits. Page 61 of the XPH: Touch Powers and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch power on the round you manifest it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the power) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything with your hand while holding a charge, the power discharges. If you manifest another power, the touch power dissipates... This last part seems to indicate an unarmed strike made with the hand would discharge the power. Following that logic, if I had hammer charged, and punched you in the nose, hammer would discharge and make a mess of your face as a result of the physical contact.
aotrscommander 02-20-08, 06:23 AM	Although I would love for that to be true, I interpret the rules slightly different than you. Hammer requires a touch attack. IMO, a touch attack can not be delivered with a grapple check. RAW has mechanics in place for a touch attack during a grapple and a grapple check -- and they are separate. This also means you can't stack the damage from Hammer onto your normal unarmed damage. Logically, I think of it this way... During a grapple, my opponent could be grabbing my wrists to prevent such touch attacks. Damaging him with grapple checks could be knees and head-butts. Just because I can deal damage with a grapple checks doesn't mean I am dealing successful touch attacks. But, thank you anyway. The method you speak of also makes a great delivery system for Hostile Empathetic Transfer! For that and delivering other attacks during a grapple (such as Stunning Fist, Freezing the Lifeblood, Weakening Touch, and Pharaoh's Fist), I plan on picking up the feat Fear No Binds. One of its features removes the -4 to attack during a grapple. Of course, even if you can't (and I think it's a debatable question) deliver a touch spell with a grapple check, you can still attack with a light weapon (i.e a touch attack) during a grapple.
DracoPhoenix 02-20-08, 07:59 AM	But, thank you anyway. The method you speak of also makes a great delivery system for Hostile Empathetic Transfer! For that and delivering other attacks during a grapple (such as Stunning Fist, Freezing the Lifeblood, Weakening Touch, and Pharaoh's Fist), I plan on picking up the feat Fear No Binds. One of its features removes the -4 to attack during a grapple. If it's touch attack delivery you're after, it's a bit high level and some investment intensive (not all useless), but the Arch Mage->Psion PrC (do-able with a few not so straight substitutions), gives you the ability to deliver touch attacks at 30ft range. Couple that with empathic transfer, regular and you can quickly redistribute party damage back on your enemy.
Orenmir 02-20-08, 10:15 AM	I think the debate about whether or not a touch spell/power can be delivered automatically by (and stack with) a grapple check deserves more consideration. I'll start a new thread on the subject. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=993848) I know this topic was already discussed in the past on the Magic forum, so I'll try the Psionics forum this time and see if the results are any different.
Orenmir 02-20-08, 10:23 AM	Ectoplasmic armor is a psychoactive skin in the back of CPsi. Ah, yes! I remember that stuff. At 3k, the skin in CPsi is a Monk's wet dream. Heck, even at 6k it's still a Monk's wet dream. But, the MIC successfully nerfed it for Monks since it is treated as armor when considering class abilities. If I can convince my DM (and myself) that the original CPsi version is viable, this skin is definitely worth considering. Hence, making me lean more toward Force Screen as my next power choice. If I can't (or I feel too guilty using the overpowered CPsi version), I will surely choose Inertial Armor. Thanks for all the suggestions and viewpoints. So, what are your thoughts on the two different versions of the Ectoplasmic Armor Psychoactive Skin? Personally, I think the CPsi version is overpowered or under-priced (or both!).
jbsaff 02-20-08, 11:11 AM	A psychoactive skin doesn't hamper movement, correct? If so, adjust the price to taste. Making it act as armor doesn't make much sense to me. EDIT: The skin of the defender in the SRD grants a +4 natural armor bonus. However, it's 32k. Based on the table for estimating cost of magic items, one that grants +10 (+8 full plate, +2 enhancement from what was stated above), it looks like 10*10*1000gp = 100,000gp. Ouch. Anybody know if I'm way off base here? EDIT Mk II: Apparently it's only a +8 bonus. So 64k.
DracoPhoenix 02-20-08, 11:38 AM	So, what are your thoughts on the two different versions of the Ectoplasmic Armor Psychoactive Skin? Personally, I think the CPsi version is overpowered or under-priced (or both!). Well, considering it's 90% like +2 full plate, excepting movement and being wondrous, it could easily be argued a snap for that 3000gp is a snap. It's +4000 just for +2 AC, nevermind the armour cost. But, and this could be quite a limiting factor in the long run - you can't augment it like normal armour. Armour, from padded to full plate, from leather to adamantine can all end up with a further +8 of enchantments, excluding straight +gp effects. Yes, it a bit more portable, compacting to a scant 6in wide ball, also speed of putting on is only likely to be a factor for an ambush once you've gone to bed. In which case, you can throw it at the fighter :P. But how often do you change into / out of armour? 2 twice a day normally, once at the start, once at the end. So, is it under priced? Yes. Over powered? Only as a result of the pricing. If I were a fighter would I take it? Only as starting equipment until I get that ("fairly" common) +2 FP drop. It's not much use to the sneak, capping dex at +2. Cleric? So so - again, starting equipment only. Wizard / sorc? Nope - ASF. Warlock? Could do, if dex isn't that big an issue. Psion? Yes, but guess what? That's right it's a psi Uni item :). I think it's safe to say these were the intended users. Skins are the equivalent to robes. Monk or druid? Quite probably, depending on how it interacts with class abilities. But then, possibly starting equipment only. (Side note/question: Isn't the monk bonus +armour? In which case, the skin wouldn't stack anyway) The list of people it is genuinely useful is reasonable, but it's upgrade limitations make it less useful in the long run.
jbsaff 02-20-08, 12:07 PM	AC Bonus (Ex) When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. The bonuses appear to be untyped. The monk just loses them if wearing armor.
Orenmir 02-20-08, 06:39 PM	it's 90% like +2 full plate I think I'm missing something here. FP +2 = +10 armor bonus. Ecto Armor = +8 armor bonus. Am I wrong? Another big difference between the two is weight. FP = 50 lbs. Ecto Armor = 1 lb. Anyway, the biggest difference for my Monk is the "Armor" description. According to CPsi, Monks can wear Ecto Armor without penalty. According to the MIC, it counts as armor and nerfs some Monk abilities. I think that's the biggest consideration. Is the CPsi version just a way for Monks to cheat and wear full-plate without penalty? Maybe WotC came to their senses and modified it in the MIC to keep Monks from finding a cheap way to add +8 to their AC!
The_Mess 02-20-08, 09:25 PM	I'd guess they weren't thinking about monks in Complete Psionic, just psions, and the combo hit them sidelong. Not the first under-thought-out thing from Complete Psionic. By the way, what is a chaos monk? I can't find it in the consolidated lists.
angellis_ater 02-21-08, 01:49 AM	I believe Chaos Monks are a variant monk from the Dragon Magazine.
Lycanthromancer 02-21-08, 03:08 AM	For one, it's twice the cost of full-plate, which is overpriced anyway. For two, it can't be further enhanced. For three, it doesn't stack with other armor bonuses (there goes inertial armor). For four, saving 50 lbs isn't a big deal for many characters (including dwarves). For five, that armor check penalty is going to KILL your monk in combat any time a skill roll needs to be made, so you had better hope you don't end up needing to tumble anywhere. So yeah, it's not overpriced at all, in my opinion, and having it count as actual armor would make it a VERY sucky item. Seriously. Who would take it? Really? I could do so much better with a mithral chain shirt or an inertial armor.
DracoPhoenix 02-21-08, 03:31 AM	I think I'm missing something here. FP +2 = +10 armor bonus. Ecto Armor = +8 armor bonus. Am I wrong? Is the CPsi version just a way for Monks to cheat and wear full-plate without penalty? Maybe WotC came to their senses and modified it in the MIC to keep Monks from finding a cheap way to add +8 to their AC! I could be wrong on the +2 bit (Don't have the book to hand, so my bad if so). If that's the case, then it's probably not as bad as first thought. The x2 FP cost could be put down to being an unslotted FP, with the movement & weight being thrown in for free (Still has dex cap / ASF). Psions appear to be the intended users, which would mean 1) IA would otherwise offer superior movement and 2) an extra 49lb carrying capacity probably means more to them than a Str 18 dwarf :P. Re: Monk AC - can't remember, but VoP does(n't) stack?
CrimsonDeath 02-21-08, 04:35 AM	If that's the case, then it's probably not as bad as first thought. The x2 FP cost could be put down to being an unslotted FP, with the movement & weight being thrown in for free (Still has dex cap / ASF). Except it's technically not unslotted. You have three psychoactive skin slots, and can only benefit from one at a time. (So if you're using Ectoplasmic Armor, you can't benefit from a Skin of the Hero or Skin of the Proteus.)
starkreality 02-21-08, 07:00 AM	VoP stacks with monk bonuses, and actually almost all bonuses. VoP bonus types are, I believe, all listed as "exalted" bonuses, which happens to be a marginally rare bonus type. As for the monk bonuses themselves, I've always listed the Wis bonus like another Dex bonus, and the +1/5 levels as an insight bonus; this has never caused a stacking issue because a) redundant ability bonuses are impossible, and b) insight stacks with everything, including other insight (I think). And as an aside (I feel I should voice my opinion here, rather than a more appropriate thread, out of fear for my very existence), I don't think VoP is nearly as overpowered as people argue it to be... Perhaps if you min/max it with a monk - which is a blast, don't get me wrong! - or a druid, and your lack of magic is mitigated... being a fighter without a masterwork sword, or a wizard without a spellbook (wtf is that about?). We actually found non-monk VoP characters to be lacking most of the time, and thus allowed it in combination with another feat -Ancestral Relic. And believe it or not, a VoP fighter with a single magic item is still hard-pressed to match a regular fighter. Not to mention the part when the fighter finds himself taking feats just because he has to...
starkreality 02-21-08, 07:04 AM	Hmm... I completely forgot to include my original thoughts in that reply. I don't know why we are even having this conversation, considering you have a grappling monk. Force Screen, and Shield as well, state that the disc of force hovers in front of you. At least with my group, this causes interesting circumstances reminiscent of 2E. From the from you have the bonus, and thus it is yours against who you grapple; from behind, however, you are "shieldless".
Fatalis_902 02-21-08, 07:38 AM	Hmm... I completely forgot to include my original thoughts in that reply. I don't know why we are even having this conversation, considering you have a grappling monk. Force Screen, and Shield as well, state that the disc of force hovers in front of you. At least with my group, this causes interesting circumstances reminiscent of 2E. From the from you have the bonus, and thus it is yours against who you grapple; from behind, however, you are "shieldless". The only problm with that is that there is no "facing" as of 3.0, let alone 3.5. You always get you shield bonus on attacks made against you, if you have it equipped, no matter where they come from. And for the record, you also hold regular shields in front of you. Ergo, by your logic, anytime an enemy attacks someone, you need to determine the direction they're facing, so you can see if their shield comes into play or not. I can't help but feel that this must slow down the game.
CrimsonDeath 02-21-08, 08:16 AM	VoP stacks with monk bonuses, and actually almost all bonuses. VoP bonus types are, I believe, all listed as "exalted" bonuses, which happens to be a marginally rare bonus type. Not true. Only the "AC Bonus" ability is an Exalted bonus, and that bonus explicitly overlaps armor bonuses. Exalted Strike grants Enhancement bonuses, Deflection grants Deflection bonuses, Resistance grants Resistance bonuses, and Natural Armor grants Natural Armor bonuses. As for the monk bonuses themselves, I've always listed the Wis bonus like another Dex bonus, and the +1/5 levels as an insight bonus; this has never caused a stacking issue because a) redundant ability bonuses are impossible, and b) insight stacks with everything, including other insight (I think). Also not accurate. The Monk's Wisdom bonus is untyped and applies even when the Monk is flat-footed (but not when he's Helpless). The +1/5 levels is also unnamed. Furthermore, Insight bonuses don't stack with each other. The only AC bonus that does stack with other bonuses of the same type is Dodge. And as an aside (I feel I should voice my opinion here, rather than a more appropriate thread, out of fear for my very existence), I don't think VoP is nearly as overpowered as people argue it to be... Perhaps if you min/max it with a monk - which is a blast, don't get me wrong! - or a druid, and your lack of magic is mitigated... being a fighter without a masterwork sword, or a wizard without a spellbook (wtf is that about?). We actually found non-monk VoP characters to be lacking most of the time, and thus allowed it in combination with another feat -Ancestral Relic. And believe it or not, a VoP fighter with a single magic item is still hard-pressed to match a regular fighter. Not to mention the part when the fighter finds himself taking feats just because he has to... That's pretty accurate-- VoP isn't as good as the treasure a typical character ends up with. However, Exalted Strike means that getting a magic weapon isn't necessarily all that helpful. (And at high levels, the difference between a Longspear and a Glaive, or even a Quarterstaff and a Greatsword, is pretty close to negligible.) Good point about Wizards, though.
The_Mess 02-21-08, 09:46 AM	redundant ability bonuses are impossible How so? Doesn't a Monk 1/Swordsage 2 add his wisdom bonus to his AC twice? If he then picks up a few levels of Swashbuckler and Duelist, won't he add his intelligence bonus twice?
Orenmir 02-21-08, 10:16 AM	By the way, what is a chaos monk? I can't find it in the consolidated lists. Monk with chaotic alignment and some variant abilities from Dragon Mag #335. How so? Doesn't a Monk 1/Swordsage 2 add his wisdom bonus to his AC twice? If he then picks up a few levels of Swashbuckler and Duelist, won't he add his intelligence bonus twice? I'm 99% sure the "stackability" rules forbid that. Afterall, they are the same type of bonus, no? Here's another question that I sort of breached earlier... Are there an items besides a shield that grant a shield bonus? Not spells, powers, or abilities -- an actual item one can purchase and wear.
DracoPhoenix 02-21-08, 10:33 AM	Here's another question that I sort of breached earlier... Are there an items besides a shield that grant a shield bonus? Not spells, powers, or abilities -- an actual item one can purchase and wear. Well, it doesn't specify type, but Ring of Force shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#forceShield) might be of interest.
Orenmir 02-21-08, 10:45 AM	Well, it doesn't specify type, but Ring of Force shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#forceShield) might be of interest. Bingo! Thanks. I don't think the Ring of Force Shield needs to specify type of bonus. It claims to act like a heavy shield +2; therefore, it provides a +4 shield bonus. It's expensive, but at least it stacks with inertial armor. I think this concludes my decision-making process. Inertial Armor it is!
DracoPhoenix 02-21-08, 11:10 AM	Bingo! Thanks. I don't think the Ring of Force Shield needs to specify type of bonus. It claims to act like a heavy shield +2; therefore, it provides a +4 shield bonus. It's expensive, but at least it stacks with inertial armor. I think this concludes my decision-making process. Inertial Armor it is! Check the wording - Heavy shield (+2AC). I think this may mean it's a heavy shield (FYI Hvy shields are +2 AC).
Orenmir 02-21-08, 11:23 AM	Check the wording - Heavy shield (+2AC). I think this may mean it's a heavy shield (FYI Hvy shields are +2 AC). Ah rats! Darn parenthesis. 8500 gp for AC +2... very expensive. I guess you're paying for the fact that it provides a shield bonus without ACP or weight. When compared to a Ring of Protection +2, the pricing is valid. I shouldn't compare it to the price of a heavy shield. :rolleyes:
CrimsonDeath 02-21-08, 01:01 PM	How so? Doesn't a Monk 1/Swordsage 2 add his wisdom bonus to his AC twice? If he then picks up a few levels of Swashbuckler and Duelist, won't he add his intelligence bonus twice? By a strict reading, the Monk and Swordsage AC bonuses don't stack because they never apply at the same time. The Monk bonus only works without armor, and the Swordsage bonus only works in light armor. Customer Service goes back and forth on whether they stack, depending on how the question is asked and the alignment of the planets. Swashbucklers add their Intelligence to damage, not AC, so I'll assume you were thinking of the Bladesinger. Since the Duelist adds his Intelligence modifier (up to his class level) to his Dexterity modifier to AC, and the Bladesinger gains a Dodge bonus equal to his class level (up to his Intelligence modifier), they ought to stack. And since both abilities require you to take several levels in sub-par classes in order to benefit significantly, it's probably not all that unbalancing for them to stack. I'm 99% sure the "stackability" rules forbid that. Afterall, they are the same type of bonus, no? Only in that both bonuses are untyped, which means they'll stack as long as they're not from the same source. Of course, it's debatable whether they are from the same source or not. Some say they are because both provide an unnamed bonus to AC equal to the Wisdom modifier. Others say they're the same source because both class features are named "AC Bonus". Some claim they're from different sources because each is granted by a different class (and unlike the Ninja bonus to AC, it isn't explicitly described as overlapping the Monk bonus). Here's another question that I sort of breached earlier... Are there an items besides a shield that grant a shield bonus? Not spells, powers, or abilities -- an actual item one can purchase and wear. Do you not want a shield because you're trying to keep both hands free? Because the Animated shield property is only a +2 equivalent, so a +1 Animated Shield is only 9000gp more than a Masterwork one (so you pay about 650gp more than for a Ring of Force Shield, and a Heavy Animated Shield provides at least one more AC.) Or do you not want a shield because you're not proficient? A heavy darkwood shield costs 257gp and has no armor check penalty, so you may as well be proficient, and if you still want that free hand you can make it Animated too. Of course, if you're asking because you'll lose class features if you wear a shield, your best bet is a Ring of Force Shield.
Lycanthromancer 02-21-08, 01:09 PM	[edit] Waste of time. Just noticed something the the last post. :(
Orenmir 02-21-08, 02:16 PM	Of course, if you're asking because you'll lose class features if you wear a shield, your best bet is a Ring of Force Shield. That's correct. I'd like to keep Flailing Strike! The other AC bonuses are icing.
The_Mess 02-21-08, 03:23 PM	By a strict reading, the Monk and Swordsage AC bonuses don't stack because they never apply at the same time. The Monk bonus only works without armor, and the Swordsage bonus only works in light armor. Customer Service goes back and forth on whether they stack, depending on how the question is asked and the alignment of the planets. Are you sure about that? I'll check when I get home, but I was sure the Swordsage bonus applied as long as you weren't wearing more than light armor. Swashbucklers add their Intelligence to damage, not AC, so I'll assume you were thinking of the Bladesinger. Well, it's very nice of you to do that, but, no, I was just incorrectly remembering the Swashbuckler. :-)
ToastedAmphibian 02-21-08, 03:57 PM	The foil dosnt lock in the freshness, it seals in the juices! Some people claim that, due to the wording, a ring of force shield counts as actually wielding a shield, thus causing you to lose your Monk abilites. Ectoplamic armor? Enter the swordage with the +5 padded armor! Gets +8 armor, +5 enhancment, AND wisdom to AC with all the benifits of light armor.
CrimsonDeath 02-21-08, 04:29 PM	Are you sure about that? I'll check when I get home, but I was sure the Swordsage bonus applied as long as you weren't wearing more than light armor. It says "so long as you wear light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield". So, according to a strict reading, you must wear armor for it to work. Ectoplamic armor? Enter the swordage with the +5 padded armor! Gets +8 armor, +5 enhancment, AND wisdom to AC with all the benifits of light armor. I'm not sure where you're going with this. Ectoplasmic Armor gives you a +8 armor bonus to AC, and +5 padded armor gives you a +6 armor bonus to AC. The +5 is an enhancement to the armor bonus granted by the padded armor.
The_Mess 03-03-08, 02:56 PM	According to Customer Service (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=683775), that was not as intended, and swordsage should get the bonus while unarmored. (It's the second entry under "Classes".) And, as we all know, Customer Service is inerrant and infallible. :-)
CrimsonDeath 03-03-08, 06:42 PM	According to Customer Service (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=683775), that was not as intended, and swordsage should get the bonus while unarmored. (It's the second entry under "Classes".) And, as we all know, Customer Service is inerrant and infallible. :-) Yeah, they can't even decide whether the Swordsage's AC bonus stacks with the Monk one.